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New Build...need To Choose Between Dual Core Intel Vs Amd...


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#1 PC GEEK

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 02:30 AM

Alrighty then!! Hi there all, just sitting here watching E3 Live on G4 and doing some homework on my next build!...however, I need your help!!

I going to be doing the majority of a build for my friend and I need help choosing a cpu...here's the info that I tried to get out of him

He multi-tasks with these programs running about 90%:
iTunes
Windows Live Messenger
IE 7
RealPlayer/Windows Media Player
and some thing he uses to talk using the internet (im not sure if its for gaming or actual phone calls)

He also is an avid gamer, playing games such as:
WoW
Guild Wars
and I recently introduced him to CoD and he is looking to get R6-Vegas and other FPS games (he's not looking to play many rpg's anymore, he's switching to FPS games)

I have a Intel Core 2 Duo 6420 running at stock 2.13 ghz with tons of room to OC and I am very happy with it...however, I don't want this to sway my decision on choosing whats best for him considering his price range is between 150 and 220 dollars, but he would love to stay under 200 without sacrificing to much performance...so this is why I come here!

Here's what I have dug up that is in the price and performance range and I would like to know which is best...I'm not an AMD guy so help me out especially on those...and also help with comparing AMD's to the Intel's...I do know a lot about Intels so I'm pretty good there, but could always learn more :-) .....ok here's what I got:

AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+ Windsor 2.8GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor -- $150 on NewEgg (that's where I buy)
AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ Windsor 3.0GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor -- $170
Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 -- $186
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor -- $223

Now here's the rumors (or truth for all I know!!) on these cpus.....:
Apparently its a rip off to get the 6000 AMD when you could get the 5600 as it uses less power, runs cooler and is just about as good as the 6000 AMD

I've heard similar things about Intel though...that it's just better to get the 6420 rather than the 6600, as the 6420 can oc to match the 6600 and equal performance

Alright now I've put in my 2 cents on what I know...now i need your help!!!!

Again, Thanks

Zac

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#2 oldf@rt

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 02:47 AM

IMHO, from and AMD fanboy, I would use the AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ Windsor 3.0GHz, 2 x 1m cache. ghz has always seemed make a difference in games. on the intel side, use the Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz 4M cache, it is probably the better overall processor because of the larger L2 cache, but in gaming type benchmarks, seems to lose to the athlon.

Here is the link for the interactive cpu charts. Have fun!!
The name says it all -- 59 and holding permanently

**WARNING** Links I provide might cause brain damage

#3 PC GEEK

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 03:50 AM

Thank you very much for your input, it's much appreciated!

Yes I read the thing at TH a while ago before i posted this and I came to the conclusion that since they ran the e6420 at the stock setttings with no overclock it most definately lost to the much faster 3.0 ghz amd for that reason.....I thought that I read somewhere (a while back when looking for parts to build my pc ~2 months ago) that one place, not TH, did a test where they bumped up a C2D e6420 from its stock 2.13ghz to 3.0ghz and it then beat the AMD 6000+

Also....I'm just curious..most Intels have much headway for OC'ing.....I've heard that on the flip side, AMD's are usually clocked to about the max right out of the box and can become unstable more than Intel cpu's would.....can anyone verify or bust this rumor for me?

And another thing...if I do go with the C2D..please tell me which of these would be the best MOBO to run with....the system will have 2 gigs of ddr2 800 ram with an ati graphics card...with these mobos listed, the price is just a slight factor in the decision....:

This mobo on newegg>>>>ASUS P5N-E SLI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard -- $132
AGP Slots: None
CPU Type: Quad-core / Core 2 Extreme / Core 2 Duo / Pentium
Dual Channel Supported: Yes
FSB: 1333/1066MHz
Maximum Memory Supported: 8GB
Memory Standard: DDR2 800
Number of Memory Slots: 4240pin
PCI Express x1: 1
PCI Express x16: 2 (SLI mode: x8, x8)
Supported CPU Technologies: Hyper-Threading Technology

This mobo on newegg>>>>ASUS P5B LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard -- $115
CPU Type: Quad-core / Core 2 Extreme / Core 2 Duo / Pentium
Dual Channel Supported: Yes
FSB: 1066/800MHz
Maximum Memory Supported: 8GB
Memory Standard: DDR2 800
Number of Memory Slots: 4240pin
PCI Express x1: 3
PCI Express x16: 1
South Bridge: Intel ICH8
Supported CPU Technologies: Hyper-Threading Technology

This mobo on newegg>>>>ASUS P5B-Plus LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard -- $137
AGP Slots: None
CPU Type: Quad-core / Core 2 Extreme / Core 2 Duo / Pentium
Dual Channel Supported: Yes
FSB: 1066/800MHz
Maximum Memory Supported: 8GB
Memory Standard: DDR2 800
Number of Memory Slots: 4240pin
PCI Express x1: 1
PCI Express x16: 1
South Bridge: Intel ICH8R

This mobo on newegg>>>>ASUS P5B-E LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard -- $145
CPU Type: Core 2 Extreme / Core 2 Duo / Pentium EE / Pentium
Dual Channel Supported: Yes
FSB: 1066/800MHz
Maximum Memory Supported: 8GB
Memory Standard: DDR2 800
Number of Memory Slots: 4240pin
PCI Express x1: 3
PCI Express x16: 1
South Bridge: Intel ICH8R
Supported CPU Technologies: Hyper-Threading Technology
_________________________

Note the changes between the nvidia northbridge and all the other p965's: the fsb is faster on the nvidia version...
I know nearly nothing about about northbridges so I'm wondering if anyone can tell me which is better for the application and why and then what the crap the difference is between the 3 different p965 mobos.....

Thanks again...

Zac


EDIT*** It looks as if the ASUS P5B LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard -- $115 mobo and the ASUS P5B-E LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard -- $145 mobo are now out of the picture as i found out that they only support ram with cas latency's of 5 or 6...too slow for my taste....so it's back down to the ASUS P5B-Plus LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard -- $137 mobo and the ASUS P5N-E SLI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard -- $132 mobo....


Mod Edit: Edited to remove unnecessary quote. ~tg

Edited by tg1911, 12 July 2007 - 01:51 AM.


#4 DaChew

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 05:49 AM

now disregard overclocking for the moment, intel and amd do not have seperate processes for every model they make,
they make a batch of cpu's, then test, then lock the multipliers depending upon demand and how the cores test

entry level cpu's from both companies overclock about the same, cores that test better are marked/locked higher
entry level might overclock 40-50 percent
mid 25%
high end less


now looking at L2, amd's don't need larger L2's, their onboard memory controller is faster, more efficient

w/o overclocking the c2d's get little out of cas 4 ram, amd's need it to perform at their best

in your price range intel loses, bang for the buck, the E6600 is where Intel starts to come out ahead, 65 nm

I would like to see some updated tests with the brisbanes
Chewy

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#5 PC GEEK

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 07:18 PM

Ok Chewy thanks...i see your posts around and stuff so i know that you know your stuff...I have a another question then as well.....so would it make more sense then to go with an AMD 5600+ vs an AMD 6000+ since they are only 200 mhz differnce and then would you compare either one (the 5600 or the 6000) to intels 6420 correct? Since each company is a bit different, how much of a difference in REALITY is there between AMD's 2 chips (the 5600 and the 6000) running at 2.8 and 3.0 ghz respectively, compared to intel's 6420? Is there really a BIG difference in speed when you switch from intels 6420 running at 2.13 ghz to an amd 5600 @ 2.8 or amd 6000 @ 3.0ghz??

I've heard (and this is seriously just what i "heard") that the reason intel can shine with their 6400/6420 is that there's head room for oc'ing and tha the amd's are essentially cheaper cpu's that are oc'd to bump up the ghz and that is why run hotter and use more power (again just what i've heard on newegg reviews and such and other sites) right out of the box versus Intel. Also: I have heard that the amd 6000 is just basically a 5600 oc'd to 3ghz and that its a rip off to buy that for 20 dollars more.....i know i just threw a crap load of questiions at you and i may have worded it funny, but I really want to make the best decision possible here!

so here's the questions simplified again for you:
1.) would it make more sense then to go with an AMD 5600+ vs an AMD 6000+ since they are only 200 mhz differnce?

2.) would you compare the 5600 or the 6000 to intel's 6420?

3.) Is there really a BIG difference in speed when you switch from intels 6420 running at 2.13 ghz to an amd 5600 @ 2.8 or amd 6000 @ 3.0ghz?

4.) Is there more headroom for oc'ing an intel 6420 versus oc'ing either an amd 5600 or 6000?
4.5) Does the amd 5600 have more headroom for ocing, or does the 6000 have more headroom for ocing?

5.) Are amd's essentially cheaper cpu's that are oc'd and that is why run hotter and use more power right out of the box versus Intel?

6.) is the amd 6000 just basically a 5600 oc'd to 3ghz and is a rip off to buy for 20 dollars more?

Thanks again!!!

Edit** P.S.-- I have heard that amd's are RAM demanding but that is not a problem as I have the Ram lined up and it looks like im going with either this OCZ RAM with a CAS lat. of 4 or this OCZ ram with a cas latency of 4 also


Mod Edit: Edited to remove unnecessary quote. ~tg

Edited by tg1911, 12 July 2007 - 01:52 AM.


#6 DaChew

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 07:51 PM

200Mgz/ 3000 is only 6-7% performance difference at most in a cpu dependent app

within a core family, like I said, higher marked/locked cpu's are better as tested

when I built my box 18 months ago I got the cheapest amd64 I could find and oc'd it 47% stable

finding memory to run with it took a few more months( ballistix ddr500 cas 2.5)

20$ extra for a cpu isn't but 2% of a 1000$ build

personally I would buy a cheaper brisbane and a darn good HSF and a good mobo and good power supply and OC the heck out of it

for a couple of hundred more tho a E6600 is hard to beat
Chewy

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#7 PC GEEK

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 08:10 PM

Thanks again....um I know that what you said is correct as I've heard it before, and i would oc the crap out of it if it was my own system but im helping build this for a friend and he probably won't pay attention to the temps and stablility and will start freaking out if something goes wrong cuz he doesn't know half of what i know about computers ...

hey..i just thought of something....I have heard of many people getting intel 6400/6420's up to 2.8ghz which would match the 6600 cpu.....would it be better to go that route than instead of buying an amd 5600 or 6000 or wouldn't that work out too well?

btw...aftermarket cooling for the cpu is not an option as he doesnt want it, and massively oc'ing a cheap chip (like chewy said with his amd oc'ed by 47) is also not an option since he does not know too much about pc's....but slight overclocking would be ok

oh and one more thing...just a yes or no on this one cuz im still confuzed lol......
amd 5600+ @ 2.8ghz for 150 dollars of the amd 6000+ @ 3.0ghz for 170 dollar (not saying thats what im getting just wondering which is better cuz chewy kinda confuzed me by saying it was ONLY about a 6-7% percent difference in performance but then he said to go and spend 20 bucks more on the BETTER one...so im not sure lol sorry that i didnt understand ya right Chewy...)

and one more thing again....this is going to be a slight budget build as we want to keep it at around 800 dollars....which means that we can go with amd 5600, amd 6000, or intel 6420....the intel 6600 is not an option as its out of price range....

Thanks


Mod Edit: Edited to remove unnecessary quote. ~tg

Edited by tg1911, 12 July 2007 - 01:53 AM.


#8 DaChew

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 08:21 PM

buy the windsor 5600 and spend the extra 35$ bucks on good gamer hi performance ram or a better vid card

run everything stock

the windsor 6000 would probably run hotter?
Chewy

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#9 PC GEEK

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 08:43 PM

yes see i figured that the 6000 would run hotter as well....you know surprisingly, the 5600 has beaten the 6000 at performance tests? I would how come? thats just odd....yes i have a good graphics card lined up, it will be the same as the gc in my sig....how about the ram options that i posted a few posts back? would that do ok? or does it need to be EVEN LOWER Cas because its an AMD?

Also, I don't know much about amd compatible mobos..all i know is that i really like asus because they are a very good brand and feature auto oc features....heres the page after i narrowed all the boards down....i have no clue which one to get as i have no idea what the biggest difference is between them.....however this is the one that i have selected, correct me if this is a bad board choice..(btw about 150 is as high as i'll go on a mobo, and it doesnt need to be a wireless one either)

Thanks again...you are really helping out a lot, Chewy, I really appreciate your time and consideration..and most of all...your knowledge!!


Mod Edit: Edited to remove unnecessary quote. ~tg

Edited by tg1911, 12 July 2007 - 01:54 AM.


#10 DaChew

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 10:14 PM

the ram and mobo look good, 1T command rate is something I don't see often

somehow I got it to work on both of my old boards(both asus)
Chewy

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#11 PC GEEK

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 11:21 PM

please enlighten me on what a "1T command rate" is....are you talking about the 1000mhz fsb? ...Im lost :-|

EDIT**** Wow...nevermind..I thought that you were talking about the mobo since thats what i posted last but you were talking about ram so i answered my own question on that one....however...lol

is there a big difference between 1T and 2T, i hear theres a big argument on it or something......is it like the cas settings: the lower the better?.....


Mod Edit: Edited to remove unnecessary quote. ~tg

Edited by tg1911, 12 July 2007 - 01:54 AM.


#12 arcman

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 11:51 PM

Speaking just generally, the AMD processors are very good when you're going for a cheap or mid level machine, but if you're building a performer then the C2D's are still top dog.

So far as boards, again just generally, you should be happy with an Asus, Abit, or Intel board, their stuff is consistently solid.
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#13 PC GEEK

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 12:01 AM

Ok so basically this will be a multitasking and FPS Gaming machine....so basically if i dont want to do a bunch of darn oc'ing then go with the C2D?....why is it that amd's (5600 and 6000) tend to beat the intel 6420 in this test..is it the test platforms? its especially wierd how the 5600 can beat out the 6000 on many tests on here as well....(note: you will have to select between test programs and the dif cpus)


Mod Edit: Edited to remove unnecessary quote. ~tg

Edited by tg1911, 12 July 2007 - 01:55 AM.


#14 arcman

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 01:27 AM

I dunno how much I would trust THW in the first place, but the e6400 series isn't all that hot anymore, the 6600 is pretty much the sweet spot for dollar/performance right now.
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#15 tg1911

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 01:58 AM

PC GEEK,
When replying to a post, don't use the QUOTE button under the post, unless there is something specifically in the post, that you want to quote.
Either use the button at the top of the page labeled Add Reply, or one of the 2 buttons at the bottom of the page, labeled Fast Reply, and Add Reply.
It keeps from cluttering up the board with unnecessary quotes.
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