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Bored Enough To Talk About "hey You!"?


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#1 Che Guevara

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 02:13 PM

So, I was just thinking I know a lot of people who think they know a lot about communism just because they heard alot in high school. Well, I'm bored and I want talk about Che because I'm pretty much an obsessor at this point. Mainly because, as many geeks have it, I have no life. So, does anyone know anything about Che Guevara or communism?


I have to say my favorite thing I've learned about him is how he went around South America volunteering at various leperousy care centers as you could call it. Well, he went to this center in Peru and one of his last days there it was his birthday. This center was split by the Amazon. Lepars on one side and doctors and nuns on one side. Well, they had a party on the side away from the lepars. Che (also meaning "Hey You!") wanted to spend the rest of the night with he lepars. so he went looking for the boat. he couldn't find it, so he said bleep this and swam across. Now Che had a really bad case of asthma his entire life and nobody had swam across thhis part of the amazon for i think it was 3 years.

Now to me that's amazing. I don't care what anyone say's Che was a great man, and he put others before himself. He was an honorable man. Anyone have thoughts.

Moderator Edit: Moved topic to more appropriate forum. ~ Animal

Edited by Animal, 02 May 2007 - 09:03 PM.

Che

"Shoot, coward--you are only going to kill a man." - Che Guevara as he was then murdered as an unarmed prisoner by the Brazilian army aided by the US CIA

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#2 jwinathome

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 02:40 PM

I heard the other day....(and was wondering if its true, but have not had the time to research yet..) that he had some men take down a wall and install a window so he could "take pleasure in watching his firing squad shoot" whomever.

I hope I am thinking about the same guy.

I heard the majority of his "good acts" could not be proven to be true.

I think its interesting and will definitely research myself.

I think he was not a good man (my opinion) and unfortunately has been glamorized by media and by people trying to make a buck off of a face.


"Executions?" Che Guevara exclaimed while addressing the hallowed halls of the U.N. General Assembly on December 9, 1964. "Certainly we execute!" he declared, to the claps and cheers of that august body. "And we will continue executing (emphasis HIS) as long as it is necessary! This is a war to the DEATH against the revolution's enemies!"

"I don't need proof to execute a man," snapped Che to a judicial underling in 1959. "I only need proof that it's necessary to execute him!"

"If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims. ... We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm." This was Che's prescription for America.

Edited by jwinathome, 27 April 2007 - 02:57 PM.


#3 EddieT.H.

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 01:24 AM

Lol, i thought this thread was about the band Pink Floyd, "hey you" is a popular song by them. lol
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#4 jgweed

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 09:34 AM

It is difficult to separate the man from the legend, and to "bracket" all the propaganda surrounding Che. I am not aware of any critical biography about him that would serve as a point of departure in discussing him.

When discussing communism, one must carefully distinguish the philosophical and economic aspects of the theory from its historical unfolding both in Europe as well as in Russia, and later elsewhere. Like Christianity, there were as many sects, and as many contests between conflicting interpretations as communism realised itself in time.

Regards,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#5 Che Guevara

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:10 AM

"Executions?" Che Guevara exclaimed while addressing the hallowed halls of the U.N. General Assembly on December 9, 1964. "Certainly we execute!" he declared, to the claps and cheers of that august body. "And we will continue executing (emphasis HIS) as long as it is necessary! This is a war to the DEATH against the revolution's enemies!"

"I don't need proof to execute a man," snapped Che to a judicial underling in 1959. "I only need proof that it's necessary to execute him!"

"If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims. ... We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm." This was Che's prescription for America.


Well, I'm not gonna deny that Che said any of that. I'm sure he did, but how would you feel if the entire USA was after you and trying to kill you? How would you feel if the USA sent many people out to try to assassinate you, even Cubans. Although, I admit, that is sick and demented. Power does that to you tho. What do you think george bush is doing in iraq tho. Do you think he's not allowing thousands of civilians to die. Do you think he cares, or let alone many of the americans.

Although I'm wandering off topic. Point about all that is, as my Psychology teacher says, "Any man can withstand persecution but if you want to judge a mans character, give them power." Not the exact words but it's something like that. I believe any single man with mass amounts of power would fulter and in some way, especially if they had a lot of americans out to kill you... Mainly because, no offense to Americans as I am one, but Americans can be quite heartless. At least from what I've seen. Then again anyone can be givin the right circumstances.

Moving along, I agree that the "historic communist societies" meaning USSR and such must be separated with the theory. I also agree that it's a theory. I do believe that one day maybe not in this life time, but some day there will be a society that much resembles, if not is communist.

I actually think that many countries call them selves communist as an ego trip. They say they're communist when usually they're socialist or some kind of dictatorship.
Che

"Shoot, coward--you are only going to kill a man." - Che Guevara as he was then murdered as an unarmed prisoner by the Brazilian army aided by the US CIA

#6 Phetro

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:29 PM

Che had a heart of gold for his allies and a heart of ice for his enemies. It's the best way to be in life (diplomacy for friends, violence for enemies) if you ask me, but he was on the wrong side, heh.

Like John said above, it's important to distinguish between Communism's ideals (some of which are horrible, and some others actually enticing in my opinion) and its reality. It assumes that everyone performs equally, and that power is best wielded by the government. Has it ever been successfully implemented? Sure: if you're lucky enough to be in a position of power...and the only way to get there is to already be there, or to kill someone who is and have enough supporters to keep you alive afterwards. If you're not in a position of power, too bad for you--you serve the people who are or die.

Capitalism, for the record, is like the other hand of the same body...it assumes that whoever ends up wealthy performs better work than those who don't, and that power is best wielded by the wealthy. Has it been successfully implemented? Sure: if you're wealthy, and thus powerful. If you're not wealthy and powerful, you're told the reason is that you aren't "clever" or "creative" enough, or that you "don't work hard enough," but chances are it's just because you aren't devious or unscrupulous enough. There are a lot of hard-working, clever, creative people being underpaid, laid off, and going bankrupt in America.

BTW, Che's last words were: "Shoot, coward--you are only going to kill a man." Your sig has a slightly altered version.

#7 Che Guevara

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 09:36 AM

Yeah, I knew I was gonna be off a bit on the sig. I have a horrible memory for certain things.

Anyways, communism hasn't yet been implemented. The closest thing to communism was socialism in USSR and China and such. They call themselves communist but they aren't obviously. Communism wouldn't have single dictators as leaders. If communism had leaders it would be an extremely large array of them, if that's the word I'm actually looking for. In a "true" form of communism, in my opinion, everyones word would matter. Everyone would vote on anything that actually mattered to them. The system could theoretically work if people were actually willing to work for the cause, but generally people aren't. I think eventually the corporations will start controlling people to much. I'm sure the people will be pretty nieve for a while, but like what usually happens, someone will start something. Spread information, and hopefully it wont come to revolution, but something will eventually happen.
Che

"Shoot, coward--you are only going to kill a man." - Che Guevara as he was then murdered as an unarmed prisoner by the Brazilian army aided by the US CIA

#8 ussr1943

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 09:35 PM

Communism in its true form is where the peoples engage and directly recieve equally the fruits of their labor, with no need for a government or an outstanding army.-get it right

personally though I don't know why this topic was allowed it seems like some fan of che wanted the limelight to continue che's legand

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"
"Ideas are far more powerful than guns."
"The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards -- and even then I have my doubts." --Eugene H. Spafford
"One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"

#9 Demon Cleaner

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 10:50 PM

Personally i've never heard of the geezer! :thumbsup:

#10 Che Guevara

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 08:48 AM

Communism in its true form is where the peoples engage and directly recieve equally the fruits of their labor, with no need for a government or an outstanding army.-get it right

personally though I don't know why this topic was allowed it seems like some fan of che wanted the limelight to continue che's legand

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"


sounds like someone likes to talk smack, that's pretty lame dude. You can say what you want about me but obviouslly by your name you support the ussr. And i dunno if you know this but the ussr had theyre own little haulicost of jews and jehovas whitenesses. you call Che a terrorist what do you call the iron curtain, a decoration. Che may have been a bit loose on one side, but at least he fought for the people and not for himself, like Stalin did.
Che

"Shoot, coward--you are only going to kill a man." - Che Guevara as he was then murdered as an unarmed prisoner by the Brazilian army aided by the US CIA

#11 yano

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Posted 28 May 2007 - 01:45 AM

I'm sure everyone's seen his picture somewhere (Che). I know very little about him personally. Though I think the topic of communism, socialism, and capitalism iwould be a good one to debate.

As for economy they all have there advantages and disadvantages.

communism - everyone enjoys the "fruits of their labor" equally (as stated above). However, in recent times it has been unforntuately linked to dictatorship and hasn't successfully worked in country without the army or a dictator twisting it.

capitalism - allows one to enjoy in the fruits of their own labor. Depending on how much fruit your produce depends on how much you will receive. (more you work, the more you make) However, especially in America, rates of poverty are a little higher than in communistic countries. source1 source2
Also, in capitalism countries healthcare systems, education systems, tend to be lower on the scale (globally than semi-socialism countries; ie Europe) source3

socialism - almost a middle point between the two previous types of economy. Production (commercial) is controlled by the government or party (wahtever) and personal income and property is allowed to grow. Advantages of this is everyone can get a more fair healthcare system, better education opportunity, and yet remain with private assets. source1, source2

Random fact I learned from the research I did for this post, is that Germany is the largest exporter in the world. source

#12 flyingpants

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 08:50 AM

Under state-capitalism, the rich rule.
Under Communism, the party rules.
In Anarchism, the people rule.

#13 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 09:38 PM

communism, in its truest and theoretical form, has NEVER worked in the real world. It is because of the imperfections in men that it will not work. for example, laziness and greed. has been tried in many places, all over europe, and historically the biggest attempt (and failure) occured in the USSR. it has been tried in usa as well, in the sixties in california, maybe some other places and times. but wherever it happens, communism ALWAYS either crumbles or becomes a dictatorship ran by a single tyrant or a body that is tyrannical.
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

"The things you own end up owning you." Tyler Durden

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo

#14 ussr1943

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:27 PM

So does that mean you're equivocating me to a racist mass killer?
I support TRUE Theoretical Communism, which was the idea of the USSR when it was created during the revolution, however as stated above true communism will never happen, ever. The human element makes it impossible.

Stalin was a fool, and a terrible person who sullied the good name of the Russian peoples, his crimes can never be forgiven, I will never support his actions.

On the topic of Che, you say he did much for the people. Yeah well little known fact: Hitler liked children, and was pretty good with them. This doesn't supercede the fact he had killed 11 million men, women, and children Based on his sick twisted idea of an "ideal" society in which one people were better than the others.It doesn't stop the fact that he had created programs such as lebensborn , where thousands of children were kidnapped from their villages, and raised to be loyal to hitler and his cause. It doesn't change the fact hitler ordered the mass extermination of entire races and beliefs, to make way for his "future."

Che is just another Icon who promoted Communism only to sully it and kill many people needlessly in the process.

Also side note: Most people when executed are unarmed, and yes Che committed many executions himself so don't try to make it look like his execution was some sort of atrocity.

Edited by ussr1943, 30 January 2008 - 10:01 PM.

"Ideas are far more powerful than guns."
"The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards -- and even then I have my doubts." --Eugene H. Spafford
"One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"




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