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Guns...are They The Problem?


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#1 dc3

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 12:20 AM

In the thread about the Virginia Tech shooting Grinler stated that if the thread became about guns that he would lock it, so here's you opportunity to vent your spleen, and I'll even start it off.

I live in a rural area where the good ole boys define gun control as having a steady hand. But these good ole boys also have a practical appreciation for their firearms, generations of the people have hunted in the foothills and mountains where I live. These people don't depend on their firearms to feed them as they did in the past, but the marksmanship and safety skills are still taught in the family tradition. My point here is that this is the only practical application for owning a gun...unless you intend on shooting someone.

Keeping a firearm for protection has become a way of life for an ever increasing number of people, and most anyone can purchase a firearm for that purpose. Unfortunately this purchase does not require the same type of training that you have to have to pass the written and driving test for a drivers license. Perhaps requiring a certificate of completion from a gun safety course would be good requirement for anyone who wants to purchase a firearm, then again licensed teens are killing themselves and others street racing.

What are your thoughts here? Do we need to make firearms harder to get? Do we need to get rid of them? Do we allow people to have permits to carry a loaded hand gun?



Just a thought here, how many of you are aware that car accidents kill more people per capita than firearms. And how many of you are aware that physicians kill more people than cars?

Moderator Edit: Moved topic to more appropriate forum. ~ Animal

Edited by Animal, 18 April 2007 - 11:17 AM.

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#2 JohnWho

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 08:49 AM

I'm not a gun owner - never have been and never will be.

Having said that, though, I don't beleive it is as simple as "guns are the problem" at all.

From what is coming out about the shooter at Va. Tech., he was a tragedy looking for a place to happen. If not using a gun, he may have built some bombs, or lit some fires, or driven a vehicle through a crowd, or...


Even more possibly paradoxical to some, is the possibility that guns could have been the solution in this situation. Va. Tech. is a "guns free zone", and even those licensed to carry a firearm are restricted from doing so on the campus. If even one student with such a license had been there, he or she could have ended the shooting spree and might have saved a number of lives.


Just some thoughts to ponder.


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#3 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 09:05 AM

I think we better postpone this. I think we already have a topic on guns in the speak easy that we can talk about this but its up to the mods to merge it or whatever.

I do want to talk more on it though.

#4 dc3

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 10:58 AM

I think we better postpone this. I think we already have a topic on guns in the speak easy that we can talk about this but its up to the mods to merge it or whatever.

I do want to talk more on it though.


What topic? Postpone it? Now is the time to address this issue.



John Who, I had expected to be blasted by the usual "guns should be banned" sentiment, it is refreshing to see a realistic view of the problem.

Speaking of paradoxical situations, here is a community concerned enough to create a gun free zone with this campus yet Virginia has some of the most lax laws pertaining to purchasing a firearm. I simple search for a record was all that was required, he made his purchase and was out the door with his hand gun in about the same amount of time it takes to do the average persons grocery shopping. I do own firearms and believe that others should maintain that right as well, but I do believe that there should be some standardization adopted nationwide regarding the requirements for purchasing a firearm. In addition to an extensive back ground check I believe that there should be a standardized gun safety course required for each potential applicant to to show proof of having successfully passed. I also believe that similar documentation should be required for the purchase of ammunition.

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#5 jwinathome

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 12:20 PM


I think we better postpone this. I think we already have a topic on guns in the speak easy that we can talk about this but its up to the mods to merge it or whatever.

I do want to talk more on it though.


What topic? Postpone it? Now is the time to address this issue.



John Who, I had expected to be blasted by the usual "guns should be banned" sentiment, it is refreshing to see a realistic view of the problem.

Speaking of paradoxical situations, here is a community concerned enough to create a gun free zone with this campus yet Virginia has some of the most lax laws pertaining to purchasing a firearm. I simple search for a record was all that was required, he made his purchase and was out the door with his hand gun in about the same amount of time it takes to do the average persons grocery shopping. I do own firearms and believe that others should maintain that right as well, but I do believe that there should be some standardization adopted nationwide regarding the requirements for purchasing a firearm. In addition to an extensive back ground check I believe that there should be a standardized gun safety course required for each potential applicant to to show proof of having successfully passed. I also believe that similar documentation should be required for the purchase of ammunition.


I appreciate your take on this, and allow me to be devil's advocate if I may....who do you propose pay for that type of training and documentation? Built-in to the price of the gun? Make the seller responsible for the cost, the Government? etc. etc.

#6 evilmonkeyz

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 12:47 PM

I live in the UK and the attitude to guns is very different here. I was watching the news last night and they were interviewing some students that attended Virginia Tech, and they said that they just wished that everyone had been carrying guns around on that day and prevented all the killings by taking him down.

At first I thought that everyone carrying guns is such a bad idea, and almost the opposite to a solution, but then I thought that this just shows how different the attitudes to guns in the UK and the USA is.

There is not going to be a ban on gun carrying in America as far as I can see, the right to bear arms is to deeply imprinted in American culture for that to be a realistic solution. However, something needs to be done about the problem. There needs to be stricter control on guns, and yes this will cost extra, but I think the problem will only get worse without some sort of control. Something needs to be done to avoid more loss of life.

Of course, this is all my opinion and as someone who lives outside the USA and only sees the affects of guns on the news, may be a little one sided, for that I'm sorry.

Josh
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#7 blueandgold04

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 01:43 PM

While I agree that stricter guidelines need to be enacted for gun ownership, I think it should be in the hands of the individual State. If a person doesn't like the way firearm ownership is treated by that State, then move to another.

Placing that kind of control in the hands of the Federal Gov is a recipe for disaster and unnecessary control.

I own guns, and I enjoy using them for hunting and target practice. I also enjoy the security that guns provide.

And let's be honest, do we have any idea what the alternative would truly be like? It is easy to make assumptions and say, "Well, we couldn't allow college students, who have a concealed carry permit, to carry on campus. Think of the chaos!" Yet, there is no data to suggest this would be the case. We will never know if the outcome would have changed had the students been allowed to carry. Perhaps it is time we tried to gather such data.

If I or any of my friends had been allowed to pack on that campus, the moment this idiot had to reload, he would have been finished. Max handgun capacity is about 20 rounds, without having a hideously long clip. So he had to reload at least once, probably more. Properly implemented, guns would have been the solution!

Regards,
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#8 jwinathome

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 01:56 PM

While I agree that stricter guidelines need to be enacted for gun ownership, I think it should be in the hands of the individual State. If a person doesn't like the way firearm ownership is treated by that State, then move to another.

Placing that kind of control in the hands of the Federal Gov is a recipe for disaster and unnecessary control.

I own guns, and I enjoy using them for hunting and target practice. I also enjoy the security that guns provide.

And let's be honest, do we have any idea what the alternative would truly be like? It is easy to make assumptions and say, "Well, we couldn't allow college students, who have a concealed carry permit, to carry on campus. Think of the chaos!" Yet, there is no data to suggest this would be the case. We will never know if the outcome would have changed had the students been allowed to carry. Perhaps it is time we tried to gather such data.

If I or any of my friends had been allowed to pack on that campus, the moment this idiot had to reload, he would have been finished. Max handgun capacity is about 20 rounds, without having a hideously long clip. So he had to reload at least once, probably more. Properly implemented, guns would have been the solution!

Regards,
bg04


I completely agree with you. Well said.

Just to add....you get the government to approve a gun ban, and watch all the shootings that happen as a result of the ban. Ever heard the phrase, "you can have my gun when you pry it from my dead, cold hands..." Some people feel very strongly about having their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT taken away.

Oh, and on another note, please don't listen to anything Rosie O'Donnell has to say about this situation.

#9 locally pwned

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 05:14 PM

Perhaps in this situation, a well-trained gun owner could indeed have stopped the killer before so many lives were lost.

But just to throw this out: for every situation like this where a gun owner might have been needed, how many more incidents would there be on a gun-filled campus?

Also, I am not convinced that just "putting down" the assailant would have necessarily been so easy. The real world has many factors to consider. A gun-filled campus might erupt into a gun battle, bullets randomly spraying everywhere.
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#10 JohnWho

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 05:37 PM

Perhaps in this situation, a well-trained gun owner could indeed have stopped the killer before so many lives were lost.

But just to throw this out: for every situation like this where a gun owner might have been needed, how many more incidents would there be on a gun-filled campus?


"Gun-filled"? Allowing those few folks who have gun permits to carry them on campus wouldn't really create a "gun-filled" environment, would it? Is the rest of the surrounding area "gun-filled"?

Otherwise, it is a reasonable question. Are there other campuses around the country that do not restrict legal carrying of licensed weapons? What has happened there?

Also, I am not convinced that just "putting down" the assailant would have necessarily been so easy. The real world has many factors to consider. A gun-filled campus might erupt into a gun battle, bullets randomly spraying everywhere.



"might erupt into a gun battle" - possibly. Do we have any data to support that supposition? Has it happened before? What were the circumstances?

We don't know for sure what would have happened if any of the other people on the campus, legally carrying a weapon, had used it to protect themselves. We do know what happened without that possibility though.

I'm not sure either way what would have happened. Just offering up some speculation. I believe that there are a lot of people carrying licensed guns that would use them responsibly. Are there some that would not? I suspect that there is. However, I'm not ready to condemn all of them on speculation that a few may be irresponsible.


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#11 Baloo

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:30 PM

Being from Canada and seeing what a fiasco a federal gun registry can become ($2.0 BILLION and counting), stricter laws will only affect the law abiding citizens who own and have registered their guns. Let's face it, if the latest reports on the shooter are correct, he had a plan and would have executed that plan by whatever means necessary. The guns he used were purchased legally stricter laws simply would have forced him to use other means to acquire what he needed.
Just my humble opinion.

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#12 locally pwned

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 07:32 PM

John Who, sorry, I should have explained that a bit better. I was thinking "cross-thread," since the "Guns...are they the problem?" and the "Virginia Tech" threads are so closely related.


When you asked,

"Gun-filled"? Allowing those few folks who have gun permits to carry them on campus wouldn't really create a "gun-filled" environment, would it? Is the rest of the surrounding area "gun-filled"?


I was thinking of this:

The Law Enforcement Agencies can't be everywhere,at any given moment.


Which is precisely the reason for citizens to be armed and trained to defend themselves when faced with such a situation. With gun ownership comes responsibility, responsibility for the weapon and its power, as well as responsibility to use that power when necessary. Someone should have dropped him! How many could have been spared agony? I can't imagine the heartache of the students and all the parents.


There are a fair amount of people who believe that social stability would be greater if the majority of the population was "responsibly" armed. So, I was tossing out a few possibilities that might ensue if such a premise were ever put into practice.

Since colleges are almost entirely populated with legal adults, and if we were to continue with this premise in mind, a college campus might then become "gun-filled."

But we are getting at the same thing, I think. I was trying to point out that there are so many variables involved, it is difficult if not impossible to make predictions on similar situations in the future. However, I think that while 18-22 year olds are considered to be legal adults, they may not have the tools to make the best decisions when it comes to situations such as this. Thus, by having a large number of armed 20 year olds in a concentrated area, a bad situation could quickly become worse.

Edited by locally pwned, 18 April 2007 - 07:35 PM.

"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine

"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

#13 JohnWho

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 07:48 PM

There are a fair amount of people who believe that social stability would be greater if the majority of the population was "responsibly" armed. So, I was tossing out a few possibilities that might ensue if such a premise were ever put into practice.

Since colleges are almost entirely populated with legal adults, and if we were to continue with this premise in mind, a college campus might then become "gun-filled."

But we are getting at the same thing, I think. I was trying to point out that there are so many variables involved, it is difficult if not impossible to make predictions on similar situations in the future. However, I think that while 18-22 year olds are considered to be legal adults, they may not have the tools to make the best decisions when it comes to situations such as this. Thus, by having a large number of armed 20 year olds in a concentrated area, a bad situation could quickly become worse.



Yeah, possibly.

But the recent historical facts do not support that, do they? I mean, since the establishment of the country, it has been legal for virtually everyone to have a gun, and how many times have instances such as you describe ever happened, other than perhaps back in the "lawless" days of the wild, wild west?


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#14 locally pwned

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 08:03 PM

Yeah, possibly.

But the recent historical facts do not support that, do they? I mean, since the establishment of the country, it has been legal for virtually everyone to have a gun, and how many times have instances such as you describe ever happened, other than perhaps back in the "lawless" days of the wild, wild west?


Historical facts? What other event could we possibly compare this to? None of these type of situations are the same. As far as I know, none have happened on campuses where weapons were allowed or were present among random students. I am just saying that the more variables you introduce, the harder it is to predict the outcome of an already unpredictable situation.
"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein

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"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

#15 JohnWho

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 08:10 PM



Yeah, possibly.

But the recent historical facts do not support that, do they? I mean, since the establishment of the country, it has been legal for virtually everyone to have a gun, and how many times have instances such as you describe ever happened, other than perhaps back in the "lawless" days of the wild, wild west?


Historical facts? What other event could we possibly compare this to? None of these type of situations are the same. As far as I know, none have happened on campuses where weapons were allowed or were present among random students. I am just saying that the more variables you introduce, the harder it is to predict the outcome of an already unpredictable situation.



I agree, although I wonder -

can an unpredictiable situation become less predictable than unpredictable?

(See my signature for help with that :thumbsup: )


I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!





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