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What Would Happen If Satan Apologised?


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#1 nn23

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 01:18 AM

:thumbsup: I always find this thought amusing but am also interested greatly in what people think.

I read in a book a few years ago that some yogis worship the devil aswell as God because they believe that this may happen.

I'm agnostic.

I am not one of these people who scroll my eyes when religeous people namely jehovas witnesses knock on the door for i veiw it as an ideal opportunity for discussion, psychological observation and sociological understanding. I once asked a couple of ladies of that faith who knocked on my door my topic question and they said it just wouldnt happen...point blank.

Classic case of denial if you ask me, but i also accept and respect that they did not see or feel it this way, the devil apologising just wouldnt happen because...followed by some hyperthetical justification.

So, would it just NOT happen for your religion too? What is the reason for this?

WOULD the repentent devil BE forgiven?

Hyperthetically speaking in the world of Gods Angels and Devils and Paradises, what would happen to hell? would the fire turn baby blue with sweet smelling smoke?

What would happen to sin?

What would be Satans new point of office?

Where would all the "baddies" go?

Can anyone think of any other things that might be affected by this change?

i am interested in all perspectives here serious ones and silly ones too ha ha, it would be nice to write a story about what happens...a new testement or scripture of some sort perhaps...leave me any sort of related feedback or theory I LOVE IT!!! NICE ONE CHEERS!!! :flowers:

Edited by nn23, 26 February 2007 - 10:32 AM.


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#2 Darthy

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 01:00 PM

:thumbsup: Good question nn23.
I don't believe in God neither in Satan. For me the Universe always existed, never had a beginning.
If Satan (if He exists) apologised, like you say, He would put a monumental problem in the brains of the "establishment" philosophers (I can see the mess :)).
If that happened there was no need to die, because there was no need of punishments for the "baddies" and rewards for the "gooddies". :inlove:
It would be the real equality for the Humankind. :P
Let's go and beg Him to apologise, but before we should beg Him to steal all the money in the World. :flowers: :trumpet:
Isn't it a good idea? :cool:
Regards,
Darthy
Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα - Socrates
Thanks John

#3 nn23

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 03:03 PM

YEAH!!!! :thumbsup: :flowers: :inlove:
i absolutely LOVE your point about no need for punishment and reward!
And poor old, satan, discriminated against because he went down the wrong path.
This point does highlight that it could be a good idea to pray to satan to "find his way back" into Gods good books...that would lead to the question: "Why not pray to the devil (with that motive in mind)"???
Any answers??

NICE ONE DARTHY!!!! :trumpet:

#4 seafox14

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 06:42 PM

The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This includes having knowledge of God and what He is and still rejecting Him. Satan committed this in his pride when he tried to usurp God's place. Not only can Satan not be forgiven, but his pride will not let him repent. Revelation indicates that even after 1000 years in the lake of fire he will still try to overthrow God. So it's not just that Satan could not be forgiven, but also that his pride will not let him even consider repenting.

Seafox14
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#5 nn23

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 07:03 PM

mmm thanks, its really cool to have your opinion :thumbsup:

I can't seem to fit this idea in with my experiences. I myself and many friends and family have suffered from pride on occasions which i have witnessed, and they have managed to sometimes get through it and see that they were being silly, why is it not eventually possible for this to happen to the devil?...or, why is it not possible for you to believe this to be possible?

I find what you were saying about those who have knowledge of God but still yet reject him being Blasphemas an interesting concept. :inlove:

Does that make all people who declare themselves atheist or agnostic blasphemers?

What about people who havnt been christened? no, i spose they dont count cause not being christened isnt a rejection, i think?

I was christened does the fact that i dont have faith mean that i am a blasphema?

err and one more

Would it be sinful for you to actually explore the idea of how things might change if the devil did apologise, even if you don't believe it would happen?

WOW curiouser and curiouser he he NICE ONE seafox14 CHEERS!!!! :flowers: :trumpet:

#6 Darthy

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 05:52 PM

Hey nn, I think Satan and Beelzebub are the same entity, aren't they?
In this site, you will find a book, you can download, with the name "Revolution of Beelzebub".
In this book, written by Samael Aun Weor, which title is "The Avatar of the Aquarian Era", Beelzebub apologise for all his sins, because Samael convinced Him to do so. :flowers:
Isn't that beautiful?
If Beelzebub is the same entity that Satan, then He already apologised. :thumbsup: :trumpet:
If you don't know if Satan and Beelzebub are the same entity, I think seafox14 can explain it to us. :inlove:
Regards,
Darthy

Edited by Darthy, 27 February 2007 - 08:56 PM.

Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα - Socrates
Thanks John

#7 seafox14

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 10:51 PM

Darthy, You are right in saying that Satan and Beelzebub are the same. Lucifer has had many names over the millenia to trick people and to hide who he really is. Lucifer, or Satan was the most powerful angel in heaven. His power and authority were second only to God. However, He also thought that he could replace God. For his pride and attempted coup, he was cast out of heaven with the angels that followed him( about 1/3 of the angels). He used the same pride and jealousy to get Adam and Eve to turn their backs on God and break the one rule that God gave them. Humanity has been following that same example ever since. When you look at the root cause of any sin, it always boils down to pride or jealousy. I'm talking about pride that says " I'm just as good as God. Why should I let Him tell me what to do?". I'm talking about jealousy that says " I want the power that God has so I can do what I want to and not have to answer for it."

We are all creations of God. Created to have a relationship with Him and to worship Him, whether we want to admit it or not. Claiming to not believe in God does not change this fact.

Now nn23. As to your questions. No it is not Blasphemy to wonder what it would be like if Satan repented and were forgiven. I have wondered this very same question myself in the past. However it is merely an intellectual line of thinking that has no chance of happening. As for atheists and agnostics. Atheism is the belief that there is no God and is a total rejection of Him. If one became an Atheist but had never been shown the truth about God then repentance is still available provided that the atheist turned to God after Learning about God. As long as that happened before that person died. As for Agnostics. I have heard agnosticism described as believing that there is a higher power out there but not acknowledging any one particular faith. Let me make this clear. Choosing to stay neutral and not make a choice is just as bad as rejecting God. It is still choosing not to follow God which is rejecting Him by default. Again if the choice to be agnostic is made out of ignorance of God (i.e. never learned about Him) then their is the chance for repentance and forgiveness. As for Christening. That is a human tradition. There is no scriptural basis for it. it is basically the same as baptism, an outward show and expression of faith.

I also want to make one thing perfectly clear. By choosing to reject God you choose to send yourself to hell. By choosing to not make a choice between God or Satan you are still rejecting God and choosing to send yourself to hell. There is no middle ground. As harsh as this may be to hear. With God there are no shades of gray, there is only black and white. Choose Him or choose hell. The love that God shows us is in that He lets us make that choice for ourselves instead of giving us no choice at all. He loves us enough to risk us rejecting Him because He wants us to chose Him out of love, not because we were forced to.


Choose wisely.


Seafox14
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#8 jgweed

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 10:57 PM

"Choose Him or choose hell. The love that God shows us is in that He lets us make that choice for ourselves instead of giving us no choice at all. He loves us enough to risk us rejecting Him because He wants us to chose Him out of love, not because we were forced to."

Well it does seem to me that God is loading the dice a little. If he wanted us to chose him out of love, then why does he threaten us with hell? That is not a REAL choice, God or Hell, now is it? If he really wanted, out of love for his creatures or just out of understanding, he would certainly have allowed us a truly FREE choice without being punished for making the wrong choice.
Regards,
John
Cheers,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#9 seafox14

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 09:25 AM

John, the choice has always been to either choose to follow and obey God, or to reject God an live however we want to and send ourselves to hell. This was the choice that God gave to Adam and Eve, and has not changed. Every choice has it's own consequences whether we want to face them or not. God has layed out what the choices are and what the consequences are. He then steps aside and lets us make the choice ourselves rather than say you have no choice but to follow me. Yes Rejecting God has eternal consequences if that rout is taken, but that option is there if one chooses to go there. If this is the path that you have chosen, then Enjoy Your time on this earth while you can, but know the consequences of that choice will be after this life ends and we go into eternity. I do pray that you and many on this site have not made the choice to reject God already knowing the consequences of that choice. If it was made out of ignorance of God, (i.e. not knowing about God and salvation through faith in Jesus), then there is still time to change you decision and come to Jesus. If your choice was made with full knowledge, then you have my sympathies. I know this will sound incredibly harsh to many here on this site, but the choice and the consequences remain the same and have not changed.


I urge anyone that has not permanently rejected God to examine your hearts and how you are living your life. Then compare it to God's standard. There is salvation and reconciliation with God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Choose God.


Seafox14

Edited by seafox14, 04 March 2007 - 09:25 AM.

5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#10 seafox14

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 09:28 AM

John I know that you have raised many questions about the validity of the different translations of the bible. here is some information I think you may find interesting.




MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE FOR THE BIBLE
Talk About It

Is the Bible a credible history book? Weren't there a number of changes made to the Bible over the centuries? What about all those interpretations of the oral tradition?

When it comes to the biblical text, there's a common misunderstanding about interpretations and translations. Yes, the Bible has been translated from its original languages, but it has not been changed or interpreted along the way. Translations such as the King James Version are derived from existing copies of ancient manuscripts -- the Hebrew Masoretic Text (Old Testament) and the Greek Textus Receptus (New Testament).

Today's Bibles are not translations of texts translated from other interpretations - they go right back to the ancient source manuscripts. The primary differences between today's Bible translations and those from earlier periods are based more on the need to update the target language than on the fact that our ancient manuscripts are not reliable. For example when it says in the old King James Version that Caiaphas "rent" his clothes (Matthew 26:5), it does not mean that he let someone else use his clothes for money. In 16th Century English "rent" meant "to tear." A modern translation needs to update based on the change in word meanings in a living language.

Dramatically, when the Bible is compared to other writings, it stands alone as the best-preserved literary work of all antiquity. There are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other.1 In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek during the 3rd Century BC.2 The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Centuries BC.3

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek.4 Some manuscript texts date to the early 2nd and 3rd Centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragments being a remarkably short 40-60 years.5

Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons:

o Homer's Iliad (643 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 400 years after the original autograph);
o Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph);
o Pliny Secundus' Natural History (7 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 750 years after the original autograph);
o Thucydides' History (8 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,300 years after the original autograph);
o Herodotus' History (8 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,350 years after the original autograph);
o Plato's essays (7 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,300 years after the original autograph);
o Tacitus' Annals (20 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph).6

When it comes to credibility and accuracy, the huge number of biblical manuscripts is powerful. Like all other ancient documents, we don't have the original autographs. However, the sheer number of biblical manuscripts allows scholars to reconstruct the entire original with near complete accuracy!

In real terms, the New Testament is easily the best attested ancient writing in terms of the sheer number of documents, the time span between the events and the document, and the variety of documents available to sustain or contradict it. There is nothing in ancient manuscript evidence to match such textual availability and integrity.7

But if you don't read the text of the Bible for yourself, it doesn't make any difference to you how accurate it is!

1. Josh McDowell, The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1999, 71-73.
2. Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, vol.1, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1979, 58-59.
3. Ibid. 56-57.
4. McDowell, The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, 34-36.
5. John Ryland's Gospel of John fragment, John Ryland's Library of Manchester, England. See also, Ibid., 38.
6. McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, vol.1, 42.
7. Ravi K. Zacharias, Can Man Live Without God? Word Publishing, 1994, 162.




TEXTUAL CRITICISM OF THE BIBLE
Talk About It

When examining the accuracy of the New Testament texts, scholars now have nearly 25,000 ancient manuscript copies and fragments to compare against each other. Almost 5,700 of these texts are written in the original Greek. When read together, we're now assured that nothing's been lost - the New Testament we read today is nearly identical to the New Testament texts being circulated by the end of the 1st Century AD. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven minor verses can now be reconstructed outside the biblical manuscripts from the ancient writings of the early church leaders in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries AD.1

The academic discipline of "textual criticism" guarantees us that the Bible translations we have today are essentially the same as the ancient manuscripts, with the exception of a few inconsequential discrepancies that have been introduced over time through copyist error. We must remember that the Bible was hand-copied for hundreds of years before the invention of the first printing press in the mid-fifteenth century. Nevertheless, the text is exceedingly well preserved.

Homer's Iliad, the most renowned book of ancient Greece, is the second best-preserved literary work of all antiquity, with 643 copies of manuscript support discovered to date. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts.2 Do you see how powerful this is? Of the approximately 20,000 lines that make up the entire New Testament, only 40 lines are in question! These 40 lines represent one quarter of one percent of the entire text and do not in any way affect the teaching and doctrine of the New Testament.

In comparison, of the approximately 15,600 lines that make up Homer's Iliad, 764 lines are in question. These 764 lines represent over 5% of the entire text, and yet nobody seems to question the general integrity of that ancient work.

Many ask, "Why don't we have surviving originals of the biblical texts?" Simply, there are no original manuscripts for any ancient works. In fact, many people are unaware that there are no surviving manuscripts of any of William Shakespeare's 37 plays (written in the 1600's), and scholars have been forced to fill some gaps in his works.3

The Bible is better preserved -- by far -- than other ancient works we read and accept as accurate every day, such as Homer, Plato and Aristotle. Through time-tested literary techniques, scholars have clearly determined that the Bible was not changed or interpreted from the ancient source texts. As the Bible was carried from country to country, it was translated into languages that don't necessarily mirror the original languages of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. However, other than some grammatical and cultural differences, the Bible is absolutely true to its original form and content, and remarkably well-preserved in its various translations.

Renowned Bible scholar F.F. Bruce declares:

There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.4

Of course if a text isn't read, it doesn't make any difference how accurate it is. Why not carve out some time in your daily schedule to read the Bible. You can even download it on your pocket PC so that you can read it anytime!

1. Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, vol.1, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1979, 50-51.
2. Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible, Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986, 366-67.
3. http://shakespeare.com/faq/, Dana Spradley, Publisher, 2002.
4. F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments: How We Got Our English Bible, Fleming H. Revell Co., 1950, 178.


Seafox14

Edited by seafox14, 04 March 2007 - 09:28 AM.

5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#11 nn23

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 01:13 PM

Seafox14 i think that it is absolutely LOVELY that you care so much about us all that you want to help bring us into the path of God. Your faith is so STRONG i find it quite admirable! :inlove:. I am really impressed that you have entered into this discussion for i am sure many other people probably worry it might result in a Believers vs non-believers situation, which i am not really aiming for :flowers:

It is funny to think that someone who is friendly, kind and altruistic through-out their life (no particular example in mind, theres plenty of us) could have such a fate waiting for them for not choosing the halo and wings, i'm sure i've heard of that idealism before in a different context?

In your first reply you said ....

(sorry i havnt properly sussed the quote option yet)
Now nn23. As to your questions. No it is not Blasphemy to wonder what it would be like if Satan repented and were forgiven. I have wondered this very same question myself in the past. However it is merely an intellectual line of thinking that has no chance of happening....

Although exploring your beliefs in our damnation to hell is a very interesting subject that i'd like to pick up later perhaps, it is this area that my topic encompasses and therefore i would like to bring it back to this.

What i found interesting in this response is you saying that it was something you had explored and then bridging to somewhere else with a denial of the possibility of Satans repentance with no description of how you came to this conclusion when you were wondering such a thing. But this however in the outline of my topic is exactly what i would like to hear about :thumbsup: . How was it that you came to this view in the end? I am interested in the journey of your wonderings more than where you came to at the end :cool: .

Oh and Darthy THANKS MUCHLY for that link i am SOOOO going there to have a read and get some more views for this topic.

NICE ONE GUYS!!!! :trumpet: nn23

#12 Darthy

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 01:24 PM

...Yes Rejecting God has eternal consequences if that rout is taken, but that option is there if one chooses to go there...

May I ask you a question, seafox14?
How can a finite cause have an infinite consequence?
As you can easily understand, life is a finite gift and to sin is a finite cause inside a finite thing (life).
How can God, that is The Supreme Being and consequently The Supreme Judge, to punish with eternal (infinite) consequences the act of sinning, which always represents a finite cause?
Before I finish, I want to thank you for your last two posts.
Respectfully,
Darthy

Edited by Darthy, 04 March 2007 - 01:29 PM.

Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα - Socrates
Thanks John

#13 seafox14

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 07:47 PM

...Yes Rejecting God has eternal consequences if that rout is taken, but that option is there if one chooses to go there...

May I ask you a question, seafox14?
How can a finite cause have an infinite consequence?
As you can easily understand, life is a finite gift and to sin is a finite cause inside a finite thing (life).
How can God, that is The Supreme Being and consequently The Supreme Judge, to punish with eternal (infinite) consequences the act of sinning, which always represents a finite cause?
Before I finish, I want to thank you for your last two posts.
Respectfully,
Darthy


Your welcome Darthy. To answer your question. humans ave two sides. The finite physical side, and the non finite soul. When our bodies die, our souls go to judgment by God (this includes Christians) to account for how we lived our lives. This is how finite choices made in this life can effect one's eternal destination. Even Christians have to give an accounting of how we handle our lives and how faithfully we have server God. This is summed up in the parable of the ten talents that Jesus told (In the book of Matthew). That is why I so earnestly urge caution when making the decision to choose God or to reject Him. This more than anything is the most important choice a person makes in their life and will effect everything that happens afterward.

Choose wisely.
Seafox14
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#14 nn23

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 09:17 PM

So? What would happen if Satan Apologised?



Seafox14 i think that it is absolutely LOVELY that you care so much about us all that you want to help bring us into the path of God. Your faith is so STRONG i find it quite admirable! :). I am really impressed that you have entered into this discussion for i am sure many other people probably worry it might result in a Believers vs non-believers situation, which i am not really aiming for :inlove:

It is funny to think that someone who is friendly, kind and altruistic through-out their life (no particular example in mind, theres plenty of us) could have such a fate waiting for them for not choosing the halo and wings, i'm sure i've heard of that idealism before in a different context?

In your first reply you said ....

(sorry i havnt properly sussed the quote option yet)
Now nn23. As to your questions. No it is not Blasphemy to wonder what it would be like if Satan repented and were forgiven. I have wondered this very same question myself in the past. However it is merely an intellectual line of thinking that has no chance of happening....

Although exploring your beliefs in our damnation to hell is a very interesting subject that i'd like to pick up later perhaps, it is this area that my topic encompasses and therefore i would like to bring it back to this.

What i found interesting in this response is you saying that it was something you had explored and then bridging to somewhere else with a denial of the possibility of Satans repentance with no description of how you came to this conclusion when you were wondering such a thing. But this however in the outline of my topic is exactly what i would like to hear about :thumbsup: . How was it that you came to this view in the end? I am interested in the journey of your wonderings more than where you came to at the end :P .

Oh and Darthy THANKS MUCHLY for that link i am SOOOO going there to have a read and get some more views for this topic.

NICE ONE GUYS!!!! :) nn23


Back to the topic maybe? :) :flowers: nn23

or actually, dont worry its cool, i wanna see where this goes :cool: :trumpet:

Edited by nn23, 04 March 2007 - 09:20 PM.


#15 Darthy

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 09:47 PM

Like nn23 said, "Your faith is so STRONG i find it quite admirable! :cool:", and I say that I respect you very much, but you don't answer my question, that is:
How can a finite cause (to make a sin) to have an infinite consequence (the damnation)?
Backing to the topic, I have to say what I said in my post #6 nn23:

If Beelzebub is the same entity that Satan, then He already apologised. :thumbsup: :flowers:
If you don't know if Satan and Beelzebub are the same entity, I think seafox14 can explain it to us. :trumpet:

And Seafox14, already told us that Satan and Beelzebub are the same Entity, so, I think nothing happened until now, but it can still happen, who knows?
:inlove: :)
Regards,
Darthy

Edited by Darthy, 04 March 2007 - 09:53 PM.

Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα - Socrates
Thanks John




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