Jump to content


 


Register a free account to unlock additional features at BleepingComputer.com
Welcome to BleepingComputer, a free community where people like yourself come together to discuss and learn how to use their computers. Using the site is easy and fun. As a guest, you can browse and view the various discussions in the forums, but can not create a new topic or reply to an existing one unless you are logged in. Other benefits of registering an account are subscribing to topics and forums, creating a blog, and having no ads shown anywhere on the site.


Click here to Register a free account now! or read our Welcome Guide to learn how to use this site.

Photo

Religious Tolerance.


  • Please log in to reply
196 replies to this topic

#1 DSTM

DSTM

    "Bleepin' Aussie Addict"


  • Members
  • 2,649 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SYDNEY-AUSTRALIA
  • Local time:12:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:18 AM

The head Islamic Cleric in Australia only three weeks ago stated that Muslims have MORE right to our country than the original white settlers,and now another Muslim Cleric is Inciting Racial Hatred.As Iv'e stated in a previous post,I have a Muslim family living opposite me, and could not wish for better neighbours.
What is it going to take to educate these Muslim Clerics that this type of behavior is not welcomed in our country.Heres the Link.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21074839-2,00.html

Edited by DSTM, 18 January 2007 - 07:28 AM.















BC AdBot (Login to Remove)

 


#2 fozzie

fozzie

    aut viam inveniam aut faciam


  • Members
  • 3,516 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ossendrecht/The Netherlands
  • Local time:03:43 PM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:30 AM

Eventhough I am very open minded and try to stay away from being bias this is really the maxPosted Image We had similar situations in our country which resulted in Posted Image protests. As we speak Imams are leaving our country since they are much more under scrutiny since a certain date(9/11). Similar actions have lead to imprisonment for 2 imams overhere

#3 MaraM

MaraM

  • Members
  • 1,717 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia, Canada
  • Local time:07:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 02:24 PM

Holland seems to have developed a most unusual entrance exam for applicants hoping to immigrate to their country (Germany apparently has something similar). Rather than just the usual criteria, they have included a video film showing "two men kissing in a park and a woman in a topless swimsuit". Apparently this part of the entrance test is designed to determine if applicants are open to the socially liberal views of their country.

While many seem to not like it, nor think it "fair", in reality a country does not have to let anyone immigrant.

For myself, I think it's fine that a Country sets it's own criteria for new citizens but do wish ALL applicants had to take this exact test, not just "applicants from Muslim countries". And I agree, DSTM, it's often the religious leaders (of all faiths) that cause such furor and social unrest, leaving all the innocents of the same faith 'tarred with the same brush'.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/mar/06031305.html
Never let your computer realize you are in a hurry or just typing the last few words of a vital document.

While outer events might make one happy or sad, happiness itself is entirely internal, and at all times completely within one's power.

#4 MaraM

MaraM

  • Members
  • 1,717 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia, Canada
  • Local time:07:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 03:06 PM

Sorry about this 'double-post' but can't get my previous one to 'edit' :thumbsup:

Hand in hand with 'tolerance' seems to go 'intolerance', but I hope no one minds my adding my bit here ...

______________________________

(Quote) In spite of UN declarations on religious freedom, there is still massive room for improvement in some countries. Religious intolerance is a driving force behind many of the world's armed conflicts and centers of civil unrest. A few current and recent conflicts are listed below:

Protestants vs. Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland
Muslims, vs. Serbian Orthodox Christians in Kosovo
Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Middle East
Aboriginals, Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs in India
Christians and Muslims in East Timor
Christians and Muslims and Animists in Nigeria
Christians and Muslims in the southern Philippine islands
Hindus and Buddhists in Sri Lanka
Christians and Muslims in Sudan (Unquote)

(Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintol3.htm)
__________________________

And yet, tolerance of others in so many areas is actually taught within the New Testament itself, surely? The below is just a couple examples of what I'm referring to.
__________________________

(Quoted from souce: http://www.religioustolerance.org/tol_bibl.htm)

Tolerance of other types of "Christianity": Jesus' disciples had rejected a healer who was exorcising demons in Jesus' name, yet was not one of Jesus direct followers. Jesus criticized his disciples and accepted the healer. Mark and Luke report the incident in parallel passages:
Mark 9:38-40 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." (KJV)
Luke 9:49-50 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."


Acceptance of non-Christians into Heaven: A common and often preached message in the Christian Scriptures is that trusting in Jesus is the only way to be saved, and that only those persons who hear the Gospel and accept it will attain Heaven.
However Romans 2:14-16 delivers a different and contrasting message. Paul writes: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth. (Unquote).
______________________________

At the risk of being 'thumped mightily' for saying this, often I feel since it seems impossible for different faiths to simply accept one another and rejoice in their differences yet common bond, perhaps the world would be a better place should no religion at all exist.

With respect,
Mara
Never let your computer realize you are in a hurry or just typing the last few words of a vital document.

While outer events might make one happy or sad, happiness itself is entirely internal, and at all times completely within one's power.

#5 cowsgonemadd3

cowsgonemadd3

    Feed me some spyware!


  • Banned
  • 4,557 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:10:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 04:09 PM

The ONLY way to heaven is to ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins and that you believe in him.

#6 MaraM

MaraM

  • Members
  • 1,717 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia, Canada
  • Local time:07:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 04:49 PM

Why do ones believe that if it's clearly written:

Repeat quote:

"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth. (Unquote)

My understanding of this is that, even if I don't believe in Christianity and I should be wrong about there not being a God, as long as I've been a good human being and truly cared for others and caused no harm, God would review my life and permit me to "attain heaven".

If there wasn't so so so much judgement of one another based on religion, surely life would be a much nicer place?
Never let your computer realize you are in a hurry or just typing the last few words of a vital document.

While outer events might make one happy or sad, happiness itself is entirely internal, and at all times completely within one's power.

#7 arcman

arcman

  • Members
  • 706 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Location:Michigan
  • Local time:10:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 06:15 PM

Why do ones believe that if it's clearly written:

Repeat quote:

"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth. (Unquote)

My understanding of this is that, even if I don't believe in Christianity and I should be wrong about there not being a God, as long as I've been a good human being and truly cared for others and caused no harm, God would review my life and permit me to "attain heaven".

If there wasn't so so so much judgement of one another based on religion, surely life would be a much nicer place?

You are close, most scriptural doctrine dictates that works are a sign of salvation but not a means to it. IE if you are saved you will show it by the fruit of your works, works follows as evidence of salvation.

The way I interpret the Romans passage above is that God knows the hearts of all men and will judge them accordingly, including those outside of the known Christian church. Some will take this as in conflict with the gospel verse, "no man comes unto the Father but by me." I look at it this way: Jesus was the appropriation for mankind's salvation. In God's eyes, sin must be punished, and Jesus was the bearer of punishment to save mankind. But I don't think appropriation is necessarily the same as representation, that is to say I don't think everyone has to have heard Jesus' name in order to be covered under salvation. The alternative to this being that any person who has not heard the gospel goes to hell regardless of the condition of their heart.

Romans supports this view further in its chapters when it goes into the subject of predestination, where Paul clearly states that God chooses whomever he will to be saved or not be saved. So while Christians are called to preach the gospel, and while individuals are expected to appeal to it to be saved, it is ultimately God's will that is the determining factor in salvation.
Posted Image

#8 locally pwned

locally pwned

  • Members
  • 489 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon
  • Local time:06:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 06:22 PM

Where do you suppose deep-seeded intolerance in religion comes from?

Religion has been used for political ends since there has been religion; perhaps part of the reason so many religions claim to be "mutually exclusive" is that regardless of what the originators of the religion were trying to create, over the years governments and churches have "tuned" religion into a method of social control. It's an easy way to sway the public into submission, and to raise hatred against other countries in times of war or when it’s otherwise convenient to do so.

Think about it. Take Christianity, in a broad "generic" sort of way. The religion openly states that Jesus is the only way into heaven. Good, so no one can have anything but the state religion. Christianity claims that there's no escape from judgment...so you can't just pop off and try on a different way of life for size. You can't even escape by taking your own life. So the fear of damnation will keep society "in line." What about inquisitive individuals who'd like to see the “rules” themselves…the "fine print?" Well, for many centuries in Europe only the church possessed the bible, nay, even the ability to read. "We have the rules, we interpret them for you, you follow them. Trust us on this one."

Western civilization is patriarchal. So naturally Christianity was and still is used to maintain that social structure. Is it a coincidence that church authorities are predominantly male? I have heard some preachers actually underscore the “fact” that g(G)od choose men to teach the bible, not women. Again, we have the case of: "we've got the book ladies, believe us, that's what it says. Trust us, g(G)od said so."

How did Jesus' statement, "love thine enemy," get interpreted as "you will crusade for the Holy Land, conquer it, and kill every ‘infidel’ in your path?" How did g(G)od manage to be support both the US and Iraq at the same time in Desert Storm 1 and 2 (ie, 1990 and 2003)? Oh wait...in both cases, each respective political leader was simply manipulating the public via their religious beliefs. In other words, it still happens today all over the globe.

Come on....g(G)od wants his kids blowing each other up? Ask yourself, WWJB: Who would Jesus bomb?*

Anyway, history is full of instances where an individual or nation seemingly goes against the deepest meanings of their faiths...usually the contradiction comes from political manipulation. The alterations to religion due to this manipulation is, I think, at least a good portion of the source of intolerance.







*Not mine, though I wish it was, it's a good'n. I saw it on a very clever bumper sticker.
"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine

"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

#9 cowsgonemadd3

cowsgonemadd3

    Feed me some spyware!


  • Banned
  • 4,557 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:10:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:23 PM

who have not heard

Nobody is good. The Bible says all have fallen short of the Glory of God.
Good works DO NOT get you to Heaven. Asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins and believing in him is what it takes to get to heaven.

The point is Mara you HAVE HEARD the gospel and you reject it because you dont believe in God. I have a few links for you to read.

http://www.carm.org/email/skep_neverheard.htm

http://net-burst.net/hot/heathen.htm

EDIT
One more
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/godfair.html

Edited by cowsgonemadd3, 18 January 2007 - 10:16 PM.


#10 Constantine

Constantine

  • Members
  • 275 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Location:Byron Bay, Australia
  • Local time:12:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:25 PM

The ONLY way to heaven is to ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins and that you believe in him.


Is that the only way? How do muslims get to heaven? or Hindus or Jews?

Is heaven full of Christians? Where are the souls of the billions of people who lived and died before Christ was born?

Where is Ghandi's soul?

Just wondering.

Edited by Constantine, 18 January 2007 - 09:27 PM.

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

#11 Constantine

Constantine

  • Members
  • 275 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Location:Byron Bay, Australia
  • Local time:12:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:41 PM

I read the post by arcman with interest. It was clear and logical. He clearly has a very deep understanding of Christian theology.

My problem with any of this is that all discussion on comparative religion is based on various beliefs (and yes, I have my own beliefs). For example Christians use the bible to support their beliefs and equally Muslims use the Koran to support their own beliefs. Each side can make a compelling case to support their own position, as long as you accept their basic premis that their Book is true.

Ultimately, the discussion is hopeless as both sides take as a given that THEIR book is correct. There is no way to prove which if any are correct. There is no way to PROVE that God even exists. It always comes down to what YOU believe.

So when I read these debates which use the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud to demonstrate "God's Word" and to support a persons political or social or moral point of view, I despair at the hopelesness of the task.
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

#12 ambellina

ambellina

  • Members
  • 207 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Local time:08:43 AM

Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:46 PM

sometimes i think that thats the problem with christianity and why so many people reject it. . . everyone isn't comfortable with the idea that no matter how good a person you are you can still go to hell. i'm not. i refuse to accept that idea, but i still believe in god. i'm a member of my state's methodist youth council and its been really rewarding. its comforting to know that there are other kids out there who feel the same way as i do, and who feel that christianity shouldn't be and isn't some horrible "love me or rot in hell" type scenario, you know? i used to be a little scared of religion because of the ways that so many "christians" act and what kind of horrible things were done in God's name, but its seriously a blessing to be able to be around people who have open minds and open hearts.

#13 MaraM

MaraM

  • Members
  • 1,717 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia, Canada
  • Local time:07:43 AM

Posted 19 January 2007 - 12:02 AM

Yes, I too read Arcman's post and applaud his generous heart! And for Arcman and Constantine and locally pwned and Ambellina's understanding and tolerance for other's beliefs - all of you truly do renew my faith in mankind - gentle hugs!

I suspect many believe just as Arcman stated re the New Testament,

(Quote) Paul clearly states that God chooses whomever he will to be saved or not be saved. So while Christians are called to preach the gospel, and while individuals are expected to appeal to it to be saved, it is ultimately God's will that is the determining factor in salvation. (Unquote).

I know you mean well, truly I do, CGM, but reading all the links in the world isn't going to change my mind, truly it won't - especially the one about "heathens" - gentle smile. I came to my decision after struggling mightily for a long time, but that is not to say I am correct. Rather, I could be wrong and there could be a God. And I've said it before but I mean this so deeply, if I am wrong, surely God will have a sense of humour and understand I've truly done the very best I could.

And if a God exists who cannot see this, rather is a God who thinks I should go straight to Hell, well, I was then right to not Praise a God who shows no understanding, compassion, tolerance of others or mercy. (I hope this sentence doesn't not offend anyone, truly I do, as it's only my belief and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings).

I have friends that are United, Pentacostal, Methodist and Catholic and atheists, agnostics, Christian Scientist and Wigans, too - and perhaps strangely to some, we can all sit around my diningroom table having the most wonderful of conversations all about the various religions and a zillion other things - and not once have we tried to reform each other or not shown humour and understanding about our individual faiths or lack of.

Each person finds peace within themselves in their own way - and with peace perhaps comes greater understanding.
Never let your computer realize you are in a hurry or just typing the last few words of a vital document.

While outer events might make one happy or sad, happiness itself is entirely internal, and at all times completely within one's power.

#14 cowsgonemadd3

cowsgonemadd3

    Feed me some spyware!


  • Banned
  • 4,557 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:10:43 AM

Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:29 AM

Well mara as I said before we all have a choice to believe what we want whether it be right or wrong.

I am not debating any more. I encourage you all to read the Bible. I dont have all the answers.

And if a God exists who cannot see this, rather is a God who thinks I should go straight to Hell, well, I was then right to not Praise a God who shows no understanding, compassion, tolerance of others or mercy.


Jesus said all you have to do is just believe in him and ask for his forgiveness to go to heaven. You dont have to have PROOF. It says in the Bible anyone who rejects God goes to hell. God does not send people to hell they refuse to accept him. They send themselves.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-create-doomed-people.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html

I hope one day before its to late you turn to him.
-Austin Z

#15 ambellina

ambellina

  • Members
  • 207 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Local time:08:43 AM

Posted 19 January 2007 - 03:07 PM

Well mara as I said before we all have a choice to believe what we want whether it be right or wrong.

I am not debating any more. I encourage you all to read the Bible. I dont have all the answers.

And if a God exists who cannot see this, rather is a God who thinks I should go straight to Hell, well, I was then right to not Praise a God who shows no understanding, compassion, tolerance of others or mercy.


Jesus said all you have to do is just believe in him and ask for his forgiveness to go to heaven. You dont have to have PROOF. It says in the Bible anyone who rejects God goes to hell. God does not send people to hell they refuse to accept him. They send themselves.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-create-doomed-people.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html

I hope one day before its to late you turn to him.
-Austin Z


i mean no disrespect, but i believe that attitudes like that are what turn so many people away from christianity in the first place. some people arent, and never will be, comfortable with associating themselves with people who think that those who do not follow their same faith are automatically going to hell. then, christianity doesn't become something that grants you eternal life so much as something that saves you from supposedly rotting in hell, and those are two very different things. . . i don't understand why so many christians don't realize this. i agree with MaraM in that you can post links until your blue in your computer screen but it takes more than a google search to mean something. . .




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users