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(america) You Lost Your Right To Trial


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#1 yano

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 07:48 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Bill

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-336125524577953609 (excellent video by Olbermann on MSNBC that explain it in laymen's terms.)

Basically now the government can detain you without taking you to trial, in addition, they can also detain anyone they want with or without probable cause now.

So who is still having fun with Bush in office?

Edited by jgweed, 16 October 2006 - 11:06 PM.


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#2 MaraM

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 11:03 PM

Zipped off to 'Torture Bill' link ... "The Act explicitly suspends the writ of habeas corpus for detainees who are not U.S. citizens" - would make me really, really glad to already be an American citizen!
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#3 Ronbo

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:18 AM

Actually MaraM, it doesn't stop with just non-citizens;

The Act authorizes the President or the Secretary of Defense, via a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or a competent tribunal, to designate any person - including an American citizen - as an unlawful enemy combatant, without guidelines for making that designation.

Well it was a good run, you couldn't really expect it to last forever could you? Two hundred and thirty years of a citizen run country with freedom and justice for all. Well.... forty some years anyway if you really want to nit pick about the shameful way our country treated the blacks and other minorities, but thats another story anyway.

I have nothing but respect for the Republicans on this issue. You really have to admire a political party that was able in only six years time to destroy the very foundation of the freedoms that so many Americans have died throughout our history to give us. The British couldn't do it, the Germans, Italians and Japanese couldn't do it, but here we are in the dawn of the Twenty-first century and the Republican party is only a stroke of a pen away from giving our Constitution a chop job the likes of which has never been seen before and will never be seen again. It will never be seen again because this has the possibility of destroying our freedoms as we have known them.

My God people, are you going to stand for this? 65 of our illustrious Senators and 250 of our glorious Representatives have voted for this bill. This bill not only strips the most fundamental building block out of our Constitution (Habeas Corpus) it also condones the use of torture. Torture people, is this what you believe America is all about?

If you do than when you or your loved loved ones are suddenly whisked away in the dark of the night to be "detained" and "questioned," you will have no one to blame but yourselves. Every single one of these 315 people, Republican, Democrat or whatever party they are from, needs to be voted and/or impeached from office now for the incredible lack of judgment they have demonstrated in voting for this issue. People who would throw away the very foundation of our freedom for a moments fleeting sense of security should not be left in charge of this country.

A law like this buys no American any safety, a law like this has the potential to destroy this country.

Edited by Ronbo, 17 October 2006 - 12:22 AM.

There is no justice, there is just us.

#4 MaraM

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:52 AM

I honestly must admit I had no idea as to the true 'power' of the Bill, before, Ronbo, so thanks for providing the links.

I'm not an American so literally have no right to make judgments, but wonder if the fear of terrorists was so over-powering to the 'American people', they didn't, in reality, realize just how serious this Bill could affect everyone 'in the long run'.

I do wonder about something, though - and surely not just in the United States with Bills such as these happening ... I'm always a bit stunned at how many laws 'slip through' without the citizens being made fully aware of the ramifications. It's fine to say 'ignorance is no excuse' but most people rely on the newspapers/television to keep them up to date amd informed - and it's just my personal opinion, but news seems to be sadly lacking in even the 'basic What, Why, When and Where' anymore?
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While outer events might make one happy or sad, happiness itself is entirely internal, and at all times completely within one's power.

#5 MaraM

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:53 AM

Oops! I apologise, I meant to say thank you, Yano, for providing the links!
Sorry about that!

Mara
Never let your computer realize you are in a hurry or just typing the last few words of a vital document.

While outer events might make one happy or sad, happiness itself is entirely internal, and at all times completely within one's power.

#6 Wildabeast

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:31 AM

I agree, it is scary. One of the biggest problems we have is there usually is nobody worth voting for. Actually, there probably is but since they aren't of the Dems or Reps they don't get press coverage so most of the people never hear of them. And, it happens in my state too, the people just keep putting them back in office! Look at Kennedy, he's responsible for the death of Mary Jo Kopeckny (spelling?) but Mass. just keeps putting him in there. We have a senator who used to be a football coach. He's done nothing in office, but the people here love him. I don't vote "pary line" I try to vote for the best person, sometimes I vote against every body already in office.
So, vote out the people who are doing this stuff!
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#7 Orange Blossom

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:35 AM

I'm always a bit stunned at how many laws 'slip through' without the citizens being made fully aware of the ramifications. It's fine to say 'ignorance is no excuse' but most people rely on the newspapers/television to keep them up to date amd informed - and it's just my personal opinion, but news seems to be sadly lacking in even the 'basic What, Why, When and Where' anymore?



How true. Sigh.

In my opinion the reasons include: news providers tie with big business which in turn is tied with government. Some weeks ago, National Public Radio reported that several stories that had been reported as news on the radio, television, and newspapers had in fact been government propoganda. We have fewer and fewer sources for news, the news media mostly are owned by a very few, Rupert Murdoch is one. The fewer the sources the less varied, I think, the points of view that are expressed.

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#8 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:10 PM

So who is still having fun with Bush in office?


Who said its all bush doing this? What about all the other idiots in congress?

"awaiting the President's signature,"

But the main votes came from:

"Senate, 65-34"

"House, 250-170-12"

If you do than when you or your loved loved ones are suddenly whisked away in the dark of the night to be "detained" and "questioned," you will have no one to blame but yourselves. Every single one of these 315 people, Republican, Democrat or whatever party they are from, needs to be voted and/or impeached from office now for the incredible lack of judgment they have demonstrated in voting for this issue. People who would throw away the very foundation of our freedom for a moments fleeting sense of security should not be left in charge of this country.


I agree! Take them all out and redo the stupid congress and house. Put in good people.

#9 locally pwned

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 05:49 AM


So who is still having fun with Bush in office?


Who said its all bush doing this? What about all the other idiots in congress?

"awaiting the President's signature,"

But the main votes came from:

"Senate, 65-34"

"House, 250-170-12"


I agree! Take them all out and redo the stupid congress and house. Put in good people.


CGM, while I will agree that there are plenty of idiots in both the House and the Senate, Bush has pushed for these kinds of sweeping changes to any and all checks and balances.

I think it is no small coincidence that he pushed to have this legislation passed with the current alignment of Congress; especially since the Democrats might be in a position to add seats, perhaps take back the Senate, House, or both.

Over these dark years with Bush in office, we've lived with mistake after mistake, failure after failure. Now and again there is a small victory...such as the court ruling that stopped Bush from overturning Clinton's road-less laws in the Pacific Northwest. But for the most part Yano, I have gotten used to bad news. :thumbsup:

Edited by locally pwned, 18 October 2006 - 05:51 AM.

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#10 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 08:09 AM

Well i'm just saying its not all bush as you can see many others voted for it too.

#11 Darthy

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 09:17 AM

“Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order: tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government.”

Do you know who tells this words?
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#12 locally pwned

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 06:55 PM

Perhaps the reason there hasn't been a second attack (on the scale of 9-11) is that another one is not necessary. One attack was all that was needed; now we'll kill off democracy on our own.
"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein

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"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

#13 Darthy

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 10:04 AM

Perhaps the reason there hasn't been a second attack (on the scale of 9-11) is that another one is not necessary. One attack was all that was needed; now we'll kill off democracy on our own.

Unfortunately, that's what I think locally pwned.
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#14 Scarlett

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 02:05 PM

Our being attacked has lead to more strict security measures.
Is that just a bonus of their terror attack, or what they had in mind all along.
I do agree that we have lost some freedoms because of it all. They probably relish that fact I'm sure, no matter how it came about.

But were our hands tied? IDK
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#15 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:51 PM

This was the governments plan all along. Starting with 9 11. Pretty soon we should just revolt and take the power back.
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