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Home Device & Appliance Spying: Are You Okay With This?


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#1 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 08:15 PM

I was wondering what the mood out there in the computer vet world is about things like Alexa, smart TV's, washers, refrigerators, toasters, and all of the corporate and on corporate software that is sold "over the counter" which contains "under the counter spying/backdoors."  

The way that I see it is that the phenomenon of "capital accumulation" is larger than any other form of logic not because I believe that it is but because I see it supercede the veneration of human beings morally, ideologically in so many examples today and throughout history.  It is that there are so many rivers that are so large of revenues weather from governments or non-government organizations that damming them is impossible due to the cultural acceptance or obliviousness being so wide spread.  And I mean so much money on so many levels synergistically accumulating revenues that this "diatribe" or "code logic" can be developed and distributed professionally, so that majority of people see it as the only way they've ever known, and anyone that sees another way is an outrage.  

So in the case of governments and corporations selling products both hardware, software, and appliances as congenial as a thermostat or door lock to an app or an OS it's the most profitable data collection and narrative control or "human coding" platform that's ever been wheeled out and put in play.  

They sell that data, and one of the biggest industries that uses our data is politics and government.  And this area gets complex, so I'll just...

 

 



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#2 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 08:18 PM

So I guess the bottom line is how would you "debug" everything you have?  Is is a realistic goal to have in the first place?  Would you open up hardware and programs, then eliminate leaks?  

 

I really don't care what anyone thinks about me in this regard.  I don't think there is any shame except in a logical fallacy, and this subject doesn't pertain to one except that there are organizations which influence and sell to us saying they are this on one hand they are something completely different on yet another hand.  That is shameful, and it is because that is logical fallacy.  



#3 jerry6

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:38 PM

I like the idea that I'm the smartest appliance in the room , have no need for smart tv , smart fridge or washing machine . In fact since using a phone the stores all the phone numbers I use , I no longer remember phone numbers . I used to have over 150 phone numbers memorized , that is now down to 10 . I think that as things we use get "smarter "  we get dumber . I try to stay away , and the bit about big companies and gov knowing more about me than my wife sure does not appeal either .



#4 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 11:46 PM

Well, there are two positive notes to keep light of.  

 

1.  There is so much data that the only value your information is most of the time is statistical data for good and corrupt uses of course.  You are not someone on a list, so the risks go down, but still when it comes, it comes for ya, and you know how it will come at ya.  The real threat that is out is the poison food, water, chemtrail air, GMO's, toxic vaccines, corrupt globalist politicians and government departments aside from aside from spy tech.  This other stuff is working on us everywhere at once 24/7, but the spy tech is a one off deal.  

I personally just don't want to be the idiot if it ever comes down to it.  I want habits and structure in my life that I know I can defend myself against tech with knowledge, habits, and technologies myself.  

 

I know a ton of people that believe that owning guns is all there is to this new world, but I tell them to no change of mind that they are outgunned no matter what.  Barrel and pop rocks might as well be ancient technology at this point.  No one could win anything against whoever would be spying those channels at us or forming a totalitarian technocracy where they control the prices of everything, so they get anything for free.....if it was only up to GI Joe's.  They absolutely have to have Technical Tom's, or it's done before they start.  

Total power is a problem for people without any power.  

 

2.  When a person wants to know stuff, that person goes and finds more stuff to know.  I don't buy this "tech is making us dumber" ideology or anthem.  No offense.  I'm just experienced to know that human knowledge is doubling once or twice a year when it used to double every few thousand years.  If your plan is to study phenomena and make money, there's no need to pay for a college any more, and then have that liability not even pay itself off because you don't know how to make money when you are a kid buying information 9 times out of 10.  Every short cut, trick, piece of wisdom, real life what is going on to the second, abilities to buy and sell assets, inventories, deals galore at the ends of your fingers.  

Really it's more like the people that want to do more and learn more and think more are going warp speed now compared to 20 years ago, but you wouldn't know it because they don't walk down streets advertising it.  It's all informational between themselves and the tech including appliances, machinery, travel ingenuity........  

What I try to teach people is that this is a new "environment" from now on, and the old environment of stone, wood, gold, fire, water, and wind is now electric jungles of electric trees pouring information and command/response protocols.  

When you walk in the door on this world fresh now and forever after, it's a new world.  It's still the same species.  People will do what they've always done.  It's just in a new environment with electricity and information technology which is replacing gold and usurpers by the way.  



#5 rp88

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:53 PM

The best way to stop devices spying on you is to ensure they are unable to connect to any kind of network. Even if a normal oven or fridge had a microphone and was recording audio it couldn't do much harm unless it had a way to send that audo out to somewhere, across some form of network. For the next decade or so atleast the only plausible way for consuemr devices to connect to the internet is through the homes' own internet connection via wifi. So denying wfi access to devices ensures they cannot spy in any meaningful way. Also cheaper devices will generally not have any "smart" features so they tend to be a good option for appliances. In the further future one might have to open up certain devices when buying them and solder a short circuiting wire across any transmission and reception equipment they have, but the risk of needing to do a thing like that is none existent without some form of universally available connection which they can reach*. "smart" devices are not welcome in my house, or those of any of my family, though I know a few friends who have been taken in by them. One really nasty danger though is with unwanted features in devices which you can't avoid connecting to the internet, for example the ME firmware in intel chips which is an extremely dangerous and over-priviliged "chip within a chip" running an operating system in parallel with the OS you run on your computer and potentially able to watch and modify the actions of the main chip in inumerable ways. Ths means there are probable backdoors in every intel chip around, and AMD and other chip companies have similarly dangerous (but not around for long enough that researchers have yet had time to study them and to find specific vulnerabilities in them) management engines on their chips. Plus while the ME firmware is almost impossible to remove right now in the next version (version 12 I think) intel is going to make removing it even harder by making use of some non-rewritable memory functions.

Debugging everything you own would be VERY difficult but also VERY satisfying. The unfortunate fact is it would take such a long time, remember that most devices have been designed over the course of several years by a large team, for one person to reverse engineer that much stuff is quite tricky, with luck some open source or security researcher teams might do such reverse engineering which users could then benefit from and use to make simple modifications to smart devices, but for a consumer to reverse engineer many internet connected things from scratch is absurdly optimistic. Some things are common amongst devices, for example most use microprocessors with forms of embeeded linux on them, but each then runs a different piece of code working alongside a different API, with different instructions to allow low level actions all of which would need to be worked out by trial and error by anyone hoping to understand much less verify the trustworthiness of and if that fails then possibly modify a device.

*this is not something that can easily arise, universal connectivity for a device without the buyer having to inform it of the house wifi login details would require the device to be pre-setup with connectivity details for a unversal "wifi" type system, and such a universal wifi type system would need a huge number of base station points all over the place. Plus the bandwidth requirements for so many devices all trying to communicate would be staggeringly impractical.

Edited by rp88, 20 December 2017 - 03:56 PM.

Back on this site, for a while anyway, been so busy the last year.

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#6 Vectron

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 03:59 PM

I like the idea that I'm the smartest appliance in the room , have no need for smart tv , smart fridge or washing machine . In fact since using a phone the stores all the phone numbers I use , I no longer remember phone numbers . I used to have over 150 phone numbers memorized , that is now down to 10 . I think that as things we use get "smarter "  we get dumber . I try to stay away , and the bit about big companies and gov knowing more about me than my wife sure does not appeal either .

Smart people don't need smart devices, as I say.

 

I try to use as fewer smart devices as possible, and the ones I do i.e. my smart TV I do not connect to the internet. Personally I got a bit upset when I found out that they don't sell bigger "dumb" TV's any more. I wanted to buy a 4K TV, but I was forced to buy a smart TV  even though I don't ever plan to use the smart features. One thing that surprised me is that the TV didn't complain too much when I refused to connect it online. It only said I'd be missing a lot of content, but that's it. I have honestly expected the TV would refuse to start up until I connected it, so I was preparing to do some firmware hacking.

 

Anyway I recall there was some guy who suggested to use a whitelist for those devices that actually need a network connection to work. I think he programmed his router to only assign DHCP addresses to all devices, but only give internet access to a few number of whitelisted MAC addresses. This way your devices will have a connection to use locally, but won't be able to connect to the internet.

 



#7 quietman7

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:46 PM

I'm not okay with it and that is one reason I do not use any smart devices. I even live day to day without carrying a phone everywhere I go.
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#8 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:14 AM

RP88

"For the next decade or so atleast the only plausible way for consuemr devices to connect to the internet is through the homes' own internet connection via wifi. So denying wfi access to devices ensures they cannot spy in any meaningful way."

 

That is false.

There is something called the smart meter that monitors the home's electricity, and it gains id and usage data from any device equipped to do so with RG signals.  I've researched this.  It has a span over three houses wide for each house.

The smart phone may or may not be.  The towers may or may not be.  

But you are right about cutting off signals, and you'd have to rig something to actually block the air off where communication begins.  



#9 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:22 AM

The best way to stop devices spying on you is to ensure they are unable to connect to any kind of network. Even if a normal oven or fridge had a microphone and was recording audio it couldn't do much harm unless it had a way to send that audo out to somewhere, across some form of network. For the next decade or so atleast the only plausible way for consuemr devices to connect to the internet is through the homes' own internet connection via wifi. So denying wfi access to devices ensures they cannot spy in any meaningful way. Also cheaper devices will generally not have any "smart" features so they tend to be a good option for appliances. In the further future one might have to open up certain devices when buying them and solder a short circuiting wire across any transmission and reception equipment they have, but the risk of needing to do a thing like that is none existent without some form of universally available connection which they can reach*. "smart" devices are not welcome in my house, or those of any of my family, though I know a few friends who have been taken in by them. One really nasty danger though is with unwanted features in devices which you can't avoid connecting to the internet, for example the ME firmware in intel chips which is an extremely dangerous and over-priviliged "chip within a chip" running an operating system in parallel with the OS you run on your computer and potentially able to watch and modify the actions of the main chip in inumerable ways. Ths means there are probable backdoors in every intel chip around, and AMD and other chip companies have similarly dangerous (but not around for long enough that researchers have yet had time to study them and to find specific vulnerabilities in them) management engines on their chips. Plus while the ME firmware is almost impossible to remove right now in the next version (version 12 I think) intel is going to make removing it even harder by making use of some non-rewritable memory functions.

Debugging everything you own would be VERY difficult but also VERY satisfying. The unfortunate fact is it would take such a long time, remember that most devices have been designed over the course of several years by a large team, for one person to reverse engineer that much stuff is quite tricky, with luck some open source or security researcher teams might do such reverse engineering which users could then benefit from and use to make simple modifications to smart devices, but for a consumer to reverse engineer many internet connected things from scratch is absurdly optimistic. Some things are common amongst devices, for example most use microprocessors with forms of embeeded linux on them, but each then runs a different piece of code working alongside a different API, with different instructions to allow low level actions all of which would need to be worked out by trial and error by anyone hoping to understand much less verify the trustworthiness of and if that fails then possibly modify a device.

*this is not something that can easily arise, universal connectivity for a device without the buyer having to inform it of the house wifi login details would require the device to be pre-setup with connectivity details for a unversal "wifi" type system, and such a universal wifi type system would need a huge number of base station points all over the place. Plus the bandwidth requirements for so many devices all trying to communicate would be staggeringly impractical.

 

 

Here's the thing.  

Where there is a danger, there is a market.  Get it?

So advertise that their chips have hidden chips, and their devices have hidden devices etc.  

1.  Research these, and post all of it online in video, print....archived, so that clicking will increase your rates on your ad clicks and such.  

2.  Clicks may include chips and devices which are free of the problems.  

 

Corner the market, and start the liberty movement.  Keep them other suckers runnin'.  IT can corner tyranny because when people catch wind of it, they have to deal with it from the masses and not just from any one nation anymore.  IT is a republic of information nation.  



#10 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:25 AM

 

Anyway I recall there was some guy who suggested to use a whitelist for those devices that actually need a network connection to work. I think he programmed his router to only assign DHCP addresses to all devices, but only give internet access to a few number of whitelisted MAC addresses. This way your devices will have a connection to use locally, but won't be able to connect to the internet.

 

 

 

 

Nice one.


I'm not okay with it and that is one reason I do not use any smart devices. I even live day to day without carrying a phone everywhere I go.

 

I'm not there yet, but I'm sure I will be.  



#11 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:29 AM

My theory is that this is a new world, and it will never change back.  You either have self defense, or you have CPU self defense, and the latter one trumps the former one exponentially.  I mean that's why the concern on this thread which is just one example.  LOL   If you don't have the savvy stuff, you can't defend against the bad stuff.



#12 r.a.d.

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:06 PM

A thought provoking and articulate post, and prompts me to ask myself: how many human brains/eyeballs are actually studying us vs. massive amounts of data stored in huge computer databases for later retrieval/human perusal if necessitated to do so? I've been researching the subject since this post and it's indeed something of relevance in today's world. Thanks to the OP.

For one, we (personally) wouldn't amount to the importance of scrutiny, yet the days of privacy are obviously long gone. When looking at our appliances, entertainment and communication devices, my reaction is:

What-me-worry+Mad+image.jpg

Actual reality vs. virtual is of more concern to us, yet do hope for some changes rolling back invasions to privacy. Not likely unless an EMP event happens which would be worse.

Just a simple tradesman's 2¢.
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#13 jerry6

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:19 PM

There was more privacy in the old East Germany  that e have in the supposed free world now . Sad



#14 F-1DeskLamp

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:23 PM

A thought provoking and articulate post, and prompts me to ask myself: how many human brains/eyeballs are actually studying us vs. massive amounts of data stored in huge computer databases for later retrieval/human perusal if necessitated to do so? I've been researching the subject since this post and it's indeed something of relevance in today's world. Thanks to the OP.

For one, we (personally) wouldn't amount to the importance of scrutiny, yet the days of privacy are obviously long gone. When looking at our appliances, entertainment and communication devices, my reaction is:

What-me-worry+Mad+image.jpg

Actual reality vs. virtual is of more concern to us, yet do hope for some changes rolling back invasions to privacy. Not likely unless an EMP event happens which would be worse.

Just a simple tradesman's 2¢.

 

 

Good post.  

I actually understand your ability to be unconcerned.  Hehe...which doesn't seem like myself since I wrote the OP suggesting the opposite.  

When I began to learn about these things, my immediate INSTINCT not just a thought pattern was to limit my data food print stored or communicable as much as possible until I get a much better eye on the "other side."  I would spend several years thinking it out, studying this and that, and then finally I can see from my high ground or "high ground enough" exactly where that "phenomenon" is posted that we would refer to as the "other side."

The things that I've researched though are not simply computer based in nature.  Most of my research is political, economic, and military based now and historically.  That is the area where I dredged.  I went as deep as the logicality of the "mental civilization" not simply their statistical outputs and considering all categories of people not simply "the favorites projected on mainstream TV sets and music."  

 

In the end the "element" that the thread is about is more of an informational and logic phenomenon not just a "who's who" somewhere that would or would not be monitoring you or I.  Think of that "element" like any other element such as the weather or natural disasters or meteorites.  That element is something that people who carry firearms concealed understand whether in a security force outfit or not.  People who have an armed home understand "that element."  

If you look out there beyond your windows at first glance, you might see a large place where it is so big and anonymous that no one would ever appeal to picking on you for any reason.  "It just seems unlikely."  This is the raw take and the wrong on at that.  

Firearms:

1.  Looters, murderers, citizens or law enforcement assist.  Even a crook can be a victim of a killer, so it is imperative to be a statistical number that is defended regardless of occupation.  

2.  A land of undefended people always as certain as the cold front moves in over the land every year be reigned on by genocide and enslavement under totalitarian and eugenical orthodoxy.  So a land which owns more firearms than all of the standing military regimes in the world combined would be a formidable force in those regards.  People can say that "their own country wouldn't do that," but the fact is there is probably about 1/4 of the population out there right now that would stand by a rolling ideological movement to wipe out some other "pattern of people" whether it be their visual patterns, verbal patterns, where they are from, or what they think like.  How do I know this?  You only have to read about history enough to realize that that "cornering the other kind in order to loot all they have including dignity to show their own kind that they are qualified in their social upstanding sort of like a right of passage or initiation...is a very common phenomenon.  I mean this is such a signature phenomenon about the human nature that it is occuring right now in schools all over the place to varying degrees.  

 

I won't get into the phenomenal mechanisms that work like clockwork time and time again in everyday life and in historical significance, but there is a process that repeats itself over and over again.

That is an element.  It is a social fact which is a truth dealing with groups of people not just one person.  We are an element.  

 

So when it comes to making sure you are aware and defended in your electronics and computer devices or arsenal, it's best to lean on the side of the statistic that is of the "IT defended" rather than the "IT undefended," and spread that ideology around to others.  

There is a certain respect and forbidding fear that surrounds someone, anyone that has a superior knowledge of electronics and IT.  That's a kind of person that people understand that if is crossed, they might be getting a visit from an IT ghost of some kind moving through their devices.  

Yes, this "element" reaches to the law enforcement and military.  The element reaches to the business industry.  

 

 

The element is real, and when the element is armed with this IT phenomenon in everything and anything electronic, then it is your duty and obligation to reply in kind.  None of these establishments can afford to be unarmed in the face of an IT armed element, so how can a public citizenry?

One of the problems that I see or "social factors" is that there were many wars and crimes fought before advanced technology caught on.  For instance the harder iron tech did not catch on until there was heap of savagery with it including wars and crimes.  Then when that harder iron caught on, there were guns.  Guns were just fancy ol' thingies until there was a heap of crime and war with them.  Then everyone had them, and any national population that gave them up was caught in genocides.  Naturally every army and police for that didn't have them....you get the point.

Those wars, genocides, and are crimes are the advertisements to sell guns.  Actually they advertise a lot more than just guns but all kinds of security tech and military/law armaments and tactics.  

 

But what has not happened yet is an IT advertising occurrence that rifes the population so badly and so widespread that a bulk statistic says that they are IT savvy and IT defended.  Meaning that there are so many of them in that mind set and making it a tradition that they pass from one generation to the next including classes about it and so forth that they become a force that governments have to acknowledge and play nicely with.  

A phenomenon that occurred in the US was that the government forming couldn't overpower the people who had both more arms and more money combined that they did.  They had to allow much more to the people than any other country ever, or they would not last long before someone would lead a revolution against them.  That's not the case right now.  The government has far more advanced technologies than the people and unlimited funds due to a global central bank empire on top of the lower usury banking systems on top of an international corporatocracy.  So technically if they move against us.....we have little reply in kind for them, and that affects how they work.

Keep in mind that statistically the number one cause of human death even more than all combined wars and diseases are the governments over the top of their own citizens not including and "international conflicts."  

So when the citizenry is looking at a hegemony in the face, the only question is what does it have to trade for peace in return.  If it is not enough, a violent end might be what is delivered to that people.  It's a military and law enforcement fact that peace cannot be bought with the threat of peace in exchange for violence and sabotage.  

That "element" that is a real phenomenal piece of humankind has to see that trading peace for peace is a much more practical value than trading violence for everything they've got, or it's going to trade violence for everything they've got.  They might trade sabotage, right?  That is the most common course of action in regard to element armed with IT right now which is manipulating information.  We haven't really ran up into the violent era yet, but that doesn't mean that for someone somehow that is not economically feasible to begin, and when that kind practice catches wind, it spreads like wildfire just like hard iron spread and guns spread etc.  

 

 

 

So I see it in the opposite way as you do.  I look at the lock pickers that actually have international competitions and are used by lock companies to see if they can crack their locks and so forth because they are lifetime experts.  Why do that?  Actually that's not the logical question to ask them about their logicality.  The right questions is, "Why not do that?"  There is no reason not to per their world and self views.  

 

And as long as that is the nature of IT pros around the world, then there are people armed with IT.  The element grows around that technology as more generations are born into it, and, "Why not fortify your element by IT with savvy in it?"  

 

 

What's obvious to me is that this kind of anthem is something that requires years in the making so much so that it can become something of a family or community tradition in a sense.  It's just such a big area of understanding with tech advancing all of the time that is quite a bit to keep up with that it requires a social knitting of some kind that spans across many people's perceptions as they bring to the table what they have thought or discovered which other people probably haven't yet, so that everyone can "arm their element" with that new understanding or even basic understanding as everyone starts from know nothings.  

This is another element that is core about humankind and is actually even more powerful than the other I mentioned as long as it is equipped with practical wisdom and knowledge sets that constitute a behavior that is formidable against that other element when it arms itself against them time and time again as history and common nature shows.  



#15 r.a.d.

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:14 PM

You are a fast typist for sure, and the favorable gist I envision is that for any threat to the populace, be it new inventions of war (historically) to today's IT tech stuff, there are two equal and willing sides of the coin to level the field in lieu of dominance of one. Same (hopefully) in governmental endeavors (think alphabet soup agencies) where someone might raise a public flag regardless of the oppositions of money and power.

I'll add that the majority of folks are sometimes derogatorily described as 'herd animals', might very well be true, but not being one, humanity still kicks along. My endeavor is to happily continue to do so.

Now, about that new toaster... duct tape. :)

BTW, the quote function... I never use it as continuity in discussions like this is easily followed.

Will be checking further here for other thoughts/responses on this interesting post.
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