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Might want to build, jurys still out...


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#1 dl250

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:55 PM

I've been using my moms laptop since mine broke down. I messed with it a little but it's running an amd athlon p320, could upgrade and try to get it going again, but it's never going to be that impressive... I picked it up used, had it for about two years, so not making out bad on it... I want a desktop anyways, the laptop sits on the desk and doesn't go anywhere anyways, I end up killing batteries cause I leave them plugged in 24/7. I have been checking out Microsoft signature desktops too. No bloatware... It seems I can still build a better pc with more upgrade options down the road.

 

I'd be using the pc for surfing, some basic programs, youtube, and such... I want it to be as future proof as possible. Might need some cad programs down the road, if I decide to try gaming I want to be able to throw a card or two in and be set, I want dual monitors, not that I think it takes a lot to run them for browsing. 

 

I can't decide on a lot and am looking for ideas.

 

I like the fractal design define r5 case. It looks clean, tons of options.

 

I did a pcpartpicker thing... Started that with a Pentium g4560, but I don't know if I want to cheap out on a processor. I kinda want a true quad core. I know I don't need the i7 7700k tho. I'm leaning twards i5 7600k as of now. Never overclocked a pc before, doubt I would if I use this cpu, but I have the ability too if I do want to...

 

Now mother board... I'm looking at a Gigabyte - GA-Z270P-D3... It has everything I need. Doesn't support sli but I don't game right now and if I need more than one video card down the road I can still use crossfire. It does have m.2 though... Has water cooler fan header... Still not sure if I can use dual monitors without a card with this or not...

 

Memory? I'm thinkin 2x8gb. I think that would make use of the dual channel controller. I don't know what speed to get. I have the build setup with gskill ripjaws v 2400. 

 

Hard drive. I was looking at the Samsung 850 evo 250gb. It seems the pro is quite a bit faster but from what I've read it doesn't make much of a difference cause the system can't match the speed increase...

 

I have the build setup with a corsair h55 cpu cooler. Not too much more$$ than an air cooler, but I don't know if its warranted... I'd like it to be as quiet as possible. 

 

I have it setup for an evga supernova g2 650w power supply. It lists as only using 202w with the build I have, but I have no video cards in the build... It's fully modular, I don't know if this makes it easier to add to later, but it should protect the system. Not set in stone either since its over kill for the build so far...

 

I have a 20$ rom drive on the build. Its one of the asus ones that gets a good rating. Cheap monitor and Logitech keyboard that will work with the trackball mouse I have already.

 

I put windows 10 pro on the build, since 7 isn't going to take advantage of the newer cpu, but this isn't set in stone either...

 

I can have two ssd's in this case without using the hdd cage. Unless I get an external drive I'd want a larger hdd for storage down the line, or two ssds for raid 0... Not all to sure..

 

If I want to game with this rig all I need is possible storage space and a card or two. I think it could handle anything else I'm gonna use it for as is...

 

The total for the build is 1146, and I could look for sales, maybe get a use monitor since I'm not gaming and I don't think it will matter too much...

 

Cheapest Microsoft signature pc is a hp omen 870-151 at 899, and looks to fancy for me... I think it would do everything I wanted, not sure about upgradability or future proof though. Only comes with win 10 home, so not getting the best os...

 

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

 

 

 



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#2 Drillingmachine

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 03:17 PM

I'd be using the pc for surfing, some basic programs, youtube, and such... I want it to be as future proof as possible.


Future proof + i5-7600K, no way. It's not future proof and has no decent upgrade paths available.

This system is much better:

PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/K2Mcpb
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/K2Mcpb/by_merchant/

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 5 1600 3.2GHz 6-Core Processor ($197.88 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Asus - PRIME X370-PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard ($118.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Patriot - Viper Elite 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($62.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: ADATA - XPG SX8000 256GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($118.65 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Seagate - Barracuda 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Fractal Design - Define R5 Blackout Edition ATX Mid Tower Case ($89.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Power Supply: EVGA - SuperNOVA G2 650W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($99.89 @ OutletPC)
Optical Drive: Asus - DRW-24F1ST DVD/CD Writer ($17.84 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro Full - USB 32/64-bit ($179.89 @ OutletPC)
Total: $946.11
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-08-12 16:16 EDT-0400

CPU is much better than i5-7600K and has upgrade paths available
Stock cooler is very good (for stock cooler) and quite silent
Motherboard is much better than any LGA1151 motherboard and should accept "Ryzen 2" somewhere in future
Memory is cheapest possible as prices are very high, upgrade to something better next year or later
Video card is not on list, endless options available from basic to gaming cards (video card prices are high right now)
SSD is much faster than any SATA SSD RAID 0
HDD is basic 2TB
Case as you wanted
PSU as you wanted
Optical drive as you wanted
OS as you wanted

Edited by Drillingmachine, 12 August 2017 - 03:18 PM.


#3 dl250

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 04:28 PM

I looked into amd cpus a little. I do like some things. I think I saw that the am4 socket is supposed to be in use until 2020... I didn't think i could run one without a video card, I guess I was lookin at older ones when I made that assumption, and from the benchmarks I've seen they are a little slower in single thread... I still haven't decided which benckmark site to go by, but the 76ook beats the ryzen 5 1600 on everything but price on cpubenchmark.net.... I'm guessin this is on stock clock speeds for both, so that would be where I was running it. My idea with the 7600k is best single thread rating, decent multithread, and keeping within my budget... I wasn't planning on upgrading this unless way down the road if I replaced the motherboard etc... Without overclocking it should last a generation of cpus or two, I'd think, n I'd hope for ten years the way I plan on using it... My laptop was from like 2010 or some crap, don't really know, but it was old, was budget, n it worked decent until about six months ago... From what I can tell I could still run it, with a little thermal paste, n new battery, it should stop overheating and shutting off randomly... I still might throw a little money at it down the road to have a laptop. 

 

I have no problem with anyone telling me I'm wrong with any of my thoughts on this. I'm not doin this right away, nothing is set in stone, and I've only been researching this lightly for a month or so with more time goin into it the last couple weeks as I might have the loot to do it here soon. Once I start buying parts I'm gonna build one but unless I see something like the cpu or mobo on a really good deal I'll buy that last and not lock myself into amd or intel before I do... I do want to setup an amd build too before. I don't really see the point in goin thru the Microsoft store. It comes with a worse cpu, has stuff I wont use, I'd rather spend the money on stuff I will use. Even when I picked that mobo, I used their filters to find one that doesn't have wifi or bt built in, before I setup the search that way I was seeing mostly ones that do. I don't think that should slow it down, but it's gotta use some sort of resources, I think? 



#4 Drillingmachine

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 04:50 PM

I looked into amd cpus a little. I do like some things. I think I saw that the am4 socket is supposed to be in use until 2020... I didn't think i could run one without a video card, I guess I was lookin at older ones when I made that assumption, and from the benchmarks I've seen they are a little slower in single thread... I still haven't decided which benckmark site to go by, but the 76ook beats the ryzen 5 1600 on everything but price on cpubenchmark.net....


Luckily it's 2017 and single thread performance is not important except on some special cases. That's why AMD prioritized power consumption and throughput over single thread performance.

CPUbenchmark.net is quite useless but I cannot see 7600K beating R5 1600 there:

AMD Ryzen 5 1600 12,360
Intel Core i5-7600K @ 3.80GHz 9,294

I'm guessin this is on stock clock speeds for both, so that would be where I was running it. My idea with the 7600k is best single thread rating, decent multithread, and keeping within my budget... I wasn't planning on upgrading this unless way down the road if I replaced the motherboard etc... Without overclocking it should last a generation of cpus or two, I'd think, n I'd hope for ten years the way I plan on using it... My laptop was from like 2010 or some crap, don't really know, but it was old, was budget, n it worked decent until about six months ago... From what I can tell I could still run it, with a little thermal paste, n new battery, it should stop overheating and shutting off randomly... I still might throw a little money at it down the road to have a laptop.
 
I have no problem with anyone telling me I'm wrong with any of my thoughts on this. I'm not doin this right away, nothing is set in stone, and I've only been researching this lightly for a month or so with more time goin into it the last couple weeks as I might have the loot to do it here soon. Once I start buying parts I'm gonna build one but unless I see something like the cpu or mobo on a really good deal I'll buy that last and not lock myself into amd or intel before I do... I do want to setup an amd build too before. I don't really see the point in goin thru the Microsoft store. It comes with a worse cpu, has stuff I wont use, I'd rather spend the money on stuff I will use. Even when I picked that mobo, I used their filters to find one that doesn't have wifi or bt built in, before I setup the search that way I was seeing mostly ones that do. I don't think that should slow it down, but it's gotta use some sort of resources, I think?


While i5-7600K may be marginally better on single thread, on multi thread R5 1600 is much better. Also i5-7600K build quality is so bad (thermal paste under heat spreader) that it runs very hot and that alone is enough reason to go with Ryzen and soldered heat spreader. There are reasons why it's hard to find even single hardware site that recommends i5 CPU right now.

10 years for i5-7600K, no way. 10 years for AM4 platform, possible. Hard to say about special deals right now.

WIFI or BT built in will not slow down motherboard that is reasonable built. That kind of boards usually cost more so unless you don't need them, it's basically money wasting. However it's usually cheaper to buy then integrated than purchase add-in cards later.

#5 SEANIA

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:23 PM

 

 

 

What drilling said.


99% of the time, I edit for type-o's and grammar. I'll note it if that's not the case. 

I write near essays for most my responses, and then try to condense as best I can to the introduction of one. Less is more. Let me know if I post to much. 

I do a lot of spacing for readability. Let me know if that makes my posts seem to big. 


#6 Zone_86

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:38 AM

 Drilling you realize that more than 5 years go much the same was said about the FX 8350-8330 and it was a load of crap of epic proportions. More cores right  because everyone needs it because everyone streams two apps and games, and watches DVD's while also doing some video editing with multiple displays concurrently right?  I don't think so.

 

 90% of performance computer consumers choose "OEM" machines (check our other thread) where they might be able to get into a gaming unit with a cheaper initial cost. You said "OEM computers suck" yet none of the mainstream OEM companies have adopted AMD Ryzen, Some of the gaming oriented OEM's have (like the ones I described to you in that other thread after you categorically said OEM computers suck) -- do use Ryzen obviously. So, that leaves them, and the DIY for AMD.

 

 I agree that the AMD 1600 is the better overall processor for a hardcore streamer/gamer/multitasking/video editing user a current i5 is still going to own that AMD in overall gaming FPS in the greater share of games, and can also multitask just not as well as a 1600x, but more than good enough for 80% of enthusiasts and ... still the gaming is better, And with regards to aftermarket builds (I guess you are a builder like me) the 1600 OC's like utter crap where an I5 7600k can OC easily, and for any budget user, or "OEM" budget gamer, or anyone in between GPU upgrades also has I-GPU that a user can use during upgrades or testing. With AMD you cannot do that.


Edited by Zone_86, 13 August 2017 - 02:52 AM.


#7 Drillingmachine

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:29 AM

90% of performance computer consumers choose "OEM" machines (check our other thread) where they might be able to get into a gaming unit with a cheaper initial cost. You said "OEM computers suck" yet none of the mainstream OEM companies have adopted AMD Ryzen, Some of the gaming oriented OEM's have (like the ones I described to you in that other thread after you categorically said OEM computers suck) -- do use Ryzen obviously. So, that leaves them, and the DIY for AMD.


OEM machines are bought by people that have very limited knowledge about computers. Those who know about computers rarely touch to OEM machines as they always have some problems with build quality. Raven Ridge isn't out yet so many "office OEM" Ryzen based PC's are not yet out.
 

I agree that the AMD 1600 is the better overall processor for a hardcore streamer/gamer/multitasking/video editing user a current i5 is still going to own that AMD in overall gaming FPS in the greater share of games, and can also multitask just not as well as a 1600x, but more than good enough for 80% of enthusiasts and ... still the gaming is better, And with regards to aftermarket builds (I guess you are a builder like me) the 1600 OC's like utter crap where an I5 7600k can OC easily, and for any budget user, or "OEM" budget gamer, or anyone in between GPU upgrades also has I-GPU that a user can use during upgrades or testing. With AMD you cannot do that.


You must realize that gaming is not same as gaming benchmarks. Ryzen is much better for real world gaming mainly because it has 50% more cores and 300% more threads and so CPU is much less likely to be bottlenecked. Some two year old games utilize 7700K around 90-95% and it has 100% more threads than i5, so i5 is not enough for even today. You can buy cheap discrete GPU's for around 30 bucks, that's not any kind of problem.

Overall Ryzen 5 is simply better than i5 so and as I previously said, it's very hard to find even single hardware site that recommends i5 over Ryzen as Ryzen is simply better choice in every aspect expect perhaps i5 runs some single threaded games slightly better and overclocks better in expense of huge temps.

Ryzen 5 is cheaper, has much better platform for gaming and future upgrades, it's on another level as it has 50% more cores and 300% more threads, it runs much cooler... Strictly speaking, it's very hard to see anyone else than Intel trolls even mentioning i5 as alternative when talking about Ryzen 5.

Edited by Drillingmachine, 13 August 2017 - 03:29 AM.


#8 dl250

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:43 PM

Not going against what your saying, but as a newcomer, most of the benckmarks I'm finding have the i5 winning on speed, in single and multi thread, coming in at second for amazon best sellers losing to i7. Some mainstream reviewers say the ryzen 5 has trouble running as much memory as the i5 can... Not sure what the details are with that one but I think it was pc world or something that did a shootout and mentioned it with a click here for more bs thing.... For a newcomer to the diy world, pentium g4560 is what you find when you search for best budget cpu, this led me to well what if I stick this i5 in there instead, can I be around what the signature would come in at. 

 

Also I checked and the raid 0 crap I was reading was from years ago when it was hot... I gotta remember to check dates, can make a big difference..



#9 Drillingmachine

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:57 PM

Not going against what your saying, but as a newcomer, most of the benckmarks I'm finding have the i5 winning on speed, in single and multi thread


I suggest you take another look on those benchmarks. As on multi-threaded software that uses n threads, i5-7600K has absolutely no chance against R5 1600.

coming in at second for amazon best sellers losing to i7.


Ryzen 5 has been on market for only 4 months, i5-7600K for 7 months. That explains it. It also tells a lot that i5 is much cheaper than i7 and still i7 sells better.

Some mainstream reviewers say the ryzen 5 has trouble running as much memory as the i5 can... Not sure what the details are with that one but I think it was pc world or something that did a shootout and mentioned it with a click here for more bs thing.... For a newcomer to the diy world, pentium g4560 is what you find when you search for best budget cpu, this led me to well what if I stick this i5 in there instead, can I be around what the signature would come in at.


Ryzen 5 had trouble running DDR4-3200, those problems are solved already. Pentium G4560 OK budget CPU but problem is that it is budget cpu and costs only $90 while i5-7600K costs $230...

Also remember that Ryzen 5 1600X costs around same as i7-7600K so 1600X is better for direct comparison.

Basically Ryzen 5 1600X vs i5-7600K: Ryzen is much faster on multi thread, is more future proof, has much better motherboards, has much better build quality (soldered heatspreader) and upgrade paths are better too. i5-7600K only advantages marginally better single thread speed and "overclockablity", but good overclocking means heatspreader must be removed and that voids warranty.

Considering those facts, it's really hard to see any reason to get i5 over Ryzen. About only exception is if software used is mostly single threaded.

#10 MDD1963

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 02:00 PM

Given current R5-1600 pricing, it's certainly the way I'd go for usage scenario the OP presented.... (12 threads vs. 4, I'd opt for 12 even if the i5 might be a tad faster in some things)

 

If the CPU budget is increased to R7-1700/7700K territory, the debate might have continued a tad longer .... :)


Asus Z270A Prime/7700K/32 GB DDR4-3200/GTX1060


#11 Zone_86

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 01:28 AM

Alternatively speaking (drilling) I cannot see anyone for 1.5+ years recommending 100% AMD (even older FX series) regardless of any situation presented by an OP. You keep saying AMD has much better motherboards but that is absolute FUD and garbage. It's only now that AMD is back in the game and finally again good boards being made,  but don't confuse yourself they are not in same  You are a very, very poor AMD representative. 



#12 Drillingmachine

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 06:41 AM

Alternatively speaking (drilling) I cannot see anyone for 1.5+ years recommending 100% AMD (even older FX series) regardless of any situation presented by an OP. You keep saying AMD has much better motherboards but that is absolute FUD and garbage. It's only now that AMD is back in the game and finally again good boards being made,  but don't confuse yourself they are not in same  You are a very, very poor AMD representative. 

 

AMD still has 100% heat spreader equipped CPU's with soldered HS. As you can see there https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/652649/questions-before-buying-new-cpu/page-2#entry4310689 , it's not very wise idea to support pastecrap.

 

About motherboards. AM4 motherboards are much better than LGA115x motherboards because virtually every B350/X370 AM4 motherboard offer high speed M.2 connector AND at least two USB 3 connectors directly from CPU. On LGA1151 motherboards, all M.2 and USB traffic must go through narrow DMI interface (DMI = chipset to CPU bus). For those reasons alone, AM4 motherboards are much better than LGA1151 motherboards. As with high speed M.2 SSD you can effectively fill DMI bus and it may even cause keyboard/mouse lag on games.



#13 dl250

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 11:10 AM

There are quite a few people saying ryzen is where its at... Motherboard related, is thunderbolt any good, or going anywhere good? I don't have anything that uses it, so its not a must have for me. The little bit I looked into it, I could only see myself using an external hard drive with it if I did have it... 



#14 dl250

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 11:45 AM

It also seems like programs haven't been optimized for ryzen yet. Most benchmarks give them a lead on video editing and rendering, but they lack on photo manipulation... That really doesnt make sense to me... Better at videos, worse at photos? Seems an update should be in the works on that front. Dont know if most photo programs are quad core optimized or something...

 

I would like to get one of them lil hereo fuks n record some trail riding... Seems the ryzen would take the lead if i do go that route...

 

Also looking at playing with Linux and other os's. Would this swing things one way or the other?



#15 Drillingmachine

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 12:46 PM

There are quite a few people saying ryzen is where its at... Motherboard related, is thunderbolt any good, or going anywhere good? I don't have anything that uses it, so its not a must have for me. The little bit I looked into it, I could only see myself using an external hard drive with it if I did have it...


Thunderbolt is basically one way to use PCI Express, so there is nothing too special about it. And nothing that cannot be applied on AMD system too. Newest Thunderbolt also adds display connectors but video card is for those.

It also seems like programs haven't been optimized for ryzen yet. Most benchmarks give them a lead on video editing and rendering, but they lack on photo manipulation... That really doesnt make sense to me... Better at videos, worse at photos? Seems an update should be in the works on that front. Dont know if most photo programs are quad core optimized or something...
 
I would like to get one of them lil hereo fuks n record some trail riding... Seems the ryzen would take the lead if i do go that route...
 
Also looking at playing with Linux and other os's. Would this swing things one way or the other?


If by "photo programs" you mean Adobe's programs, they aren't optimized for anything. And they don't use cores too effectively.

Linux often allows compiling programs so AMD is generally better on Linux than on Windows compared to Intel.




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