Jump to content


 


Register a free account to unlock additional features at BleepingComputer.com
Welcome to BleepingComputer, a free community where people like yourself come together to discuss and learn how to use their computers. Using the site is easy and fun. As a guest, you can browse and view the various discussions in the forums, but can not create a new topic or reply to an existing one unless you are logged in. Other benefits of registering an account are subscribing to topics and forums, creating a blog, and having no ads shown anywhere on the site.


Click here to Register a free account now! or read our Welcome Guide to learn how to use this site.

List of Reasons to Avoid Windows 10


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 18 June 2017 - 11:36 AM

I'm tired of the debates and discussions in support threads and so when it comes time to tell a User what I think about Win10, instead of spending time to type a customized message to the one particular User, what I'd like to do is simply paste a link into the thread so that they can read it all for themselves, so there's no non-support chit chat inside the thread.

 

I'm aware of a bunch of reasons to avoid Win10, but I've never sat down and tried to organize them into a format that would allow another person to assimilate.  I have SOME structure, and priority, but not enough really to make an article (or whatever this turns into).  So I'm posting this thread and asking for help, with the primary idea that this whole thing drives towards the creation of a "document" that will allow other people to inform themselves as quickly as possible of all the reasons why Win10 may not be a good idea.

 

1) "Software as a Service" and what that means in terms of User's rights.

2) Security

3) Surveillance by Government entities

4) Data Mining/Telemetry

5) Keylogger

6) Uncontrollable updates/forced upgrades

7) Killswitch for "unauthorized hardware"

8) Advertisements

9) Deletion of illicit (hacked, cracked) software

10) "User Experience" i.e. things about Win10 that are just simply bad

11) Privacy concerns

12)  "Errata" Interesting facts about Win10, such as the Russian Government won't use it.

 

This is just off the top of my head.  At first all I'm trying to do is get a general idea of the "everything" and from there try to structure it into something comprehensible.


Edited by britechguy, 18 June 2017 - 11:40 AM.
Discussion, not technical support


BC AdBot (Login to Remove)

 


#2 jwoods301

jwoods301

  • Members
  • 1,489 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 June 2017 - 01:56 PM

It would be helpful to post links from credible sources that support each point.

 

Separates fact from conjecture and urban legends.



#3 JohnC_21

JohnC_21

  • Members
  • 22,650 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:04:18 AM

Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:18 PM

My personal beef is "Software as a Service". With Windows 7 and 8 I know my hardware will be functional up to the End of Service date. With Windows 10 as a service any major upgrade has a chance, however small, of breaking something be it the older printer or some other device.

 

Also, it seems there is change for change sake. To me an OS should stay silent in the background while running your programs, not something that flashes tiles in your face at startup. I can get that on a smartphone. The next major upgrade will change the UI and who knows what else. 



#4 britechguy

britechguy

    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt


  • Moderator
  • 6,883 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Staunton, VA
  • Local time:08:18 AM

Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:21 PM

It is already well-documented, in many sources, that Windows 10 is the most secure version of Windows ever.

 

Calling the "Speech, Inking, & Typing" feature (which, by the way, I have turned off and always have) a keylogger so perverts the term as it was always used that it becomes meaningless.  There are lots of things, including the auto-complete/auto-predict features of almost any web browser you care to name and search engines as well, that do precisely the same thing.  "Keylogger" was once used, exclusively, to denote something that tracks keystrokes to transmit to an unknown third party for "nefarious purposes."  It was not used in reference to software of the predictive text and/or predictive search categories which, by their very nature, must know what you are typing at the moment and what you have typed in the past if you want them to work.  These can generally be turned off as well.

 

Telemetry is used by every contemporary OS I know of, and the data is aggregated in order to determine trends related to specific configurations.  I have seen, during several major release roll outs and a couple of regular patch cycles just how useful this can be to prevent the dreaded "bad update" from getting very far out of the corral before being stopped in its tracks.   There is no way that Microsoft could ever create a testbed where every possible configuration upon which people are running Windows is represented.  This has been true for decades now.  A great deal of havoc has been wrought when patches/fixes/upgrades went out that passed testing, but that blew up when hitting specific hardware configurations that were not tested.  Data collection was via calls to Microsoft Support or other communications to Microsoft Support, which was painfully slow by any comparison to what can be and is fed by telemetry, and it could take days or weeks to determine that there was a major problem and what, exactly, the root cause might be.   With basic telemetry those sorts of issues can be identified within minutes to hours of the first patch/upgrade cycle and the process halted when that's indicated so that root causes can be determined.  I'll gladly take that system, thank you.

 

The only advertisements, if you can call them that (and I would), I have ever gotten under Windows 10 were several promoting Microsoft Edge and the Windows 10 Mail App.  The very first toggle on the very first page of Privacy settings is, "Let apps use advertising ID to make ads more interesting to you based on your app usage (turning this off will reset your ID)."  Turning that one switch off nukes your existing advertising ID and forbids apps to use the advertising ID.  Problem virtually completely eliminated, and it stays that way.

 

Anyone who's bothered to do a network traffic analysis on their earlier versions of Windows, Windows 7 and later, and compared the data volume that is sent back to Microsoft on those systems and on a user-clamped-down Windows 10 system will see little difference if system health telemetry is taken out of the picture.  One can legitimately argue that these choices should be opt-in, not opt-out, but it's not as though the fact that they are, indeed, opt-out has not been discussed ad nauseam since before Windows 10 was out of the Insiders Only phase of development.

 

What it comes down to is that anyone who wishes to make themselves aware of what they need to do to configure Windows 10 as closely as possible to their wishes can do so, and quite easily.  You can't make people care and the sad fact (and it is sad) is that the vast majority of people are more than happy to be blissfully and willfully ignorant.   Those who don't fit this mold can find out what they need to know and what they need to do with some very cursory web research.

The former group is the classic, "You can lead a horse to water . . ." type while the latter seeks out the water on their own.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (my website address is in my profile) Windows 10 Home, 64-bit, Version 1709, Build 16299

       

    Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.
             ~ Lauren Bacall
              

 


#5 Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:40 PM

It would be helpful to post links from credible sources that support each point.

 

Separates fact from conjecture and urban legends.

 

Agree with your overall point, however some supposition and "theory" has some grounding in reality, IMO.  I read about one such area on another forum, where it was asserted that the ToS and the EULA gave MS some rights to the "User Uploaded Content", such that it was theorized that MS could use that content for it's own commercial purposes.

 

To illustrate, say you uploaded pics of family function, say a birthday party.  It was asserted that MS could conceivably use those pics in their own marketing efforts.  To support this assertion, the person that made it said that Facebook had a similar assertion in it's ToS/EULA and that for a period of time they actually DID use User Uploaded Content (to Facebook) in their local ads, for example they might have used uploaded pics of a family event at a local pizza restaurant in (paid) advertisements FOR that pizza restaurant. It was more or less said that "public outcry" made Facebook back down.

Part of the point of making this statement is that people might assume that their "private" photos might be "theirs", but it's entirely possible that MS has built into it's ToS the idea that anything that you upload to "their" Operating System becomes "their" content.  As crazy as that might sound at first, consider that everything that I type into BC, and everything that you type into BC is "user uploaded content" and becomes 100% the property of the forum's owner.  Meaning, we're not talking hyperspace intergalactic time travel here, this kind of question about "who owns what" on the internet is common and it doesn't always go the way the average person's "common sense" might think it does.  I think it would be best for Users to at least know what the questions are, even if the answers are still (legally) undefined.



#6 Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:50 PM

It is already well-documented, in many sources, that Windows 10 is the most secure version of Windows ever.

(etc...)

 

Several points.  This thread is about creating a list of reasons to avoid Windows 10, and not a general discussion about the people that make their decision one way or another.  Leadership is by example.  That's first and foremost.

 

2nd I think it's fair to ask if you are a Certified Microsoft Technician, because that would then explain whatever "pro-Microsoft" and "pro-Windows 10" bias you may have.

 

Third, given that the purpose of the thread is to create a list of reasons to "avoid" Windows 10, any assertions regarding it's security should have some kind of back-up, and be in response to an assertion of it's lack of security.  IMO it falls under the heading of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", with the corollary to that well-known internet rule that the person making the claim is the one responsible for providing the proof, or evidence, or support, or however you'd like to phrase it.

 

Finally, it's obvious you can write.  There's nothing stopping you from starting your own thread titled "List of Reasons why you SHOULD use Windows 10".  I'm not really interested in creating a pro/con list, so I didn't start a pro/con thead.  IMO, Microsoft, as a massive multinational corporations AND a monopoly AND with the special consideration it gets from the US Government, does not need me (or anyone else) to defend it, support it or "tell the truth" about it in anyway.  If they want their Users to know "the truth" or "the facts" about Windows 10, they can just have an Advertisement pop-up every time you turn on your Win10 machine, and require you to click a box acknowledging that you read their Advertisement before allowing you to log on.  They can even force you to take a test, before letting you use their your computer.  Multiple choice test, with all the "correct" answers being that which is most favorable to Microsoft.  Or you don't get to use "your" computer.


Edited by Aaron_Warrior, 18 June 2017 - 02:51 PM.


#7 JohnC_21

JohnC_21

  • Members
  • 22,650 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:08:18 AM

Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:52 PM

To illustrate, say you uploaded pics of family function, say a birthday party.  It was asserted that MS could conceivably use those pics in their own marketing efforts.  

 

Listed under the Services Agreement.

 

  • b. To the extent necessary to provide the Services to you and others, to protect you and the Services, and to improve Microsoft products and services, you grant to Microsoft a worldwide and royalty-free intellectual property license to use Your Content, for example, to make copies of, retain, transmit, reformat, display, and distribute via communication tools Your Content on the Services. If you publish Your Content in areas of the Service where it is available broadly online without restrictions, Your Content may appear in demonstrations or materials that promote the Service. Some of the Services are supported by advertising. Controls for how Microsoft personalizes advertising are available on the Security & privacy page of the Microsoft account management website. We do not use what you say in email, chat, video calls or voice mail, or your documents, photos or other personal files to target advertising to you. Our advertising policies are covered in detail in the Privacy Statement.

     

     



#8 Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 18 June 2017 - 02:57 PM

My personal beef is "Software as a Service". With Windows 7 and 8 I know my hardware will be functional up to the End of Service date. With Windows 10 as a service any major upgrade has a chance, however small, of breaking something be it the older printer or some other device.

 

Also, it seems there is change for change sake. To me an OS should stay silent in the background while running your programs, not something that flashes tiles in your face at startup. I can get that on a smartphone. The next major upgrade will change the UI and who knows what else. 

I just read a post two days ago that said that the top-of-the-line CPUs will not have Microsoft approved drivers for any other Operating System besides Windows 10.  Not because it WON'T work, but because for business reasons Microsoft will not allow their drivers to install on Windows 10.  Meaning, the best CPUs will only work with Windows 10.

 

Then today I read another article that says that Microsoft has a built-in "kill switch" that will shut down any Windows 10 machine that has "unauthorized hardware" installed.  I assume MS is taking control of this via the drivers and whether or not they are "approved",  Meaning that if the cheap $35.00 video card didn't pay Microsoft to "approve" it, and it's drivers, the Operating System will refuse to run with it installed.  This seems similar to how printers will no longer allow you to replace their "authorized" printer ink cartridges with cartridges that have been refilled.  (My response is going to be to simply take the whole printer back to Walmart for Return every time a cartridge runs out of ink.)

 

http://boingboing.net/2015/08/20/windows-10-eula-microsoft-can.html

 

When you click through the Windows 10 "agreement," you agree to let Microsoft subject your games and hardware to authenticity tests and to shut down anything it doesn't like the looks of.
 
As intended, this allows the company to impose extrajudicial punishments on you for offenses that it gets to make up on the fly. They're banning "unauthorized" hardware -- if it comes in a box that says "Compatible with Intel motherboards," and then spoofs the board to trick it into operating with it, is it "unauthorized," or just a third-party replacement part that does what every third-party printer cartridge does already?


#9 JohnC_21

JohnC_21

  • Members
  • 22,650 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:02 PM

There is already a hack to allow the latest processors to use previous OSs so Microsoft is blowing smoke. 



#10 Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:11 PM

It is already well-documented, in many sources, that Windows 10 is the most secure version of Windows ever.

 

https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-26/product_id-32238/Microsoft-Windows-10.html

 

Total number of vulnerabilities : 316

 



#11 jwoods301

jwoods301

  • Members
  • 1,489 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:15 PM

Linux - 1911 vulnerabilities

 

https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-33/Linux.html



#12 Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

Guest_Aaron_Warrior_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:16 PM

There is already a hack to allow the latest processors to use previous OSs so Microsoft is blowing smoke. 

I read this, but I think I also read that it has to be "refreshed" every time MS "does something".  Installs an update, or whatever.  The first thing is the PITA factor, and the 2nd think is to consider that in this case, the "hack" really is a bona-fide HACK, meaning that any MS Certified Technician can lose their certification if they are found to have helped others to actually "hack" their operating system.  That's why white-hat forums won't allow conversations about P2P filesharing, etc...   Meaning that while you and I might be able to work around this restriction, the other 90% of Users that just want their computer to WORK are going to have to live with it, meaning install Windows 10 whether they want it or not.  You aren't going to get someone's mom to refresh the hack that allows her Operating System to continue to work with the unauthorized processor every single month.


The title of the thread isn't "Reasons to Not Use Linux".



#13 jwoods301

jwoods301

  • Members
  • 1,489 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:08:18 AM

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:18 PM

Mac OSX - 1861 vulnerabilities

 

https://www.cvedetails.com/product/156/Apple-Mac-Os-X.html?vendor_id=49



#14 jwoods301

jwoods301

  • Members
  • 1,489 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:21 PM

Since your item 2) Security was generic, I think a comparison of Windows security to other popular operation systems is relevant.

 

However, we can compare Windows 10 (again using your source site) against other versions of Windows...

 

https://www.cvedetails.com/product-list/product_type-o/vendor_id-26/firstchar-W/Operating-Systems.html

 

Then click on the individual links and see the years reported.

 

I will concede Windows ME has less vulnerabilities...last reported in 2008.


Edited by jwoods301, 18 June 2017 - 03:31 PM.


#15 JohnC_21

JohnC_21

  • Members
  • 22,650 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:08:18 AM

Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:27 PM

1911 is the total going back to 1997. Obviously most have already been patched.

 

This gives a different picture

 

https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/33/Linux.html


Edited by JohnC_21, 18 June 2017 - 03:29 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users