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So... why do people buy Apple Computers anymore? (minor rant)


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#1 MadmanRB

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:34 AM

Okay here is a question I always wanted to ask a apple community but since discussion would probably get me banned by mad mods and the topic sealed under the vault deep in the core of Area 51 or something.

Regardless with Apples new hardware refresh coming out the big question on my mind is why the heck are people still buying Apple computers?

 

Here is my generalized beef with Apple especially under the Tim Cook leadership:

 

In the past Apple used to mean good quality products, even with the high prices there used to be an aura of getting something of value and well worth the money.

While Steve Jobs might not have been the genious everyone says he was he still knew how to present his product and deliver it in a form of decent presentation and good quality.

The Apple of 2007 is much different than that of 2017.

Apple is no longer the bold innovator nor the badge gold standard of hardware, it is sad shell of its old self more obsessed with the iPhone and while the iPhone keeps apple relevant it is unsure if Apple will remain so even with the iPhone in play.

To see what really is why I question anyone still loyal to Apple for their PC's all goes to several factors.

 

Hardware:

 

Laptops:

It amazes me that a Laptop that costs up to $1,599.00 only offers a single port to charger and connect to other devices.

Sure wireless may be "the future" but reliable wireless charging and connectivity is still a long way off.

The Macbook just utterly makes me sick by being a glorified Chromebook in terms of connectivity.

The Macbook Pro with its "touchbar" is still a big joke overall making me wonder why it was even invented if Apple wants to push the iPad.

Apple seems to be more cutting corners in some places while being insane in others.

The appeal of a Macbook is extremely low right now especially when you consider build quality, even lower end laptops like the Dell Inspiron 15 7000 Gaming laptop can kick the snot out of a Mac Pro even with a core i5 model and even if you are a media content creator there are still better laptops out there like the Dell Precision 5510 for about the same price as the Macbook pro.

 

Desktops:

Apples desktops are a total utter joke, while there can be some argument for the Macbook the iMac and other such products really are laughable.

Apples Mac Mini's are the biggest joke ever played to make a affordable Mac, even the earlier Models seemed to be a pure tease to those who wished to have a Apple logo on their computer.

The iMac all in ones may be cool to look at but are limited in hardware upgradibility and customization without paying top dollar.

Even if one were not skilled in building their own PC can still buy a high quality computer for far better long term value, I rather someone buy a ibuypower or Origin PC then a Mac that would be not much able to be upgraded.

And the less said about the iTrashcan the better.

 

Macs are PC's!:

Face it the Mac Vs PC stunt was one of the worst promotions in retrospect as it exposed Apple for who they are, a bunch of highway robbers who charge high prices for the same hardware as seen in much cheaper computers.

Ever since the switch from Power PC to Intel the justification to even call it a "Mac" is a joke at best, Apple has not been a Mac since 2005 and ironically that was the year of the Mac Vs PC advertising boom.

Its really laughable in retrospect.

The "build quality" argument also seems a joke if if you buy a regular PC you can still receive the same quality if you know where to look.

 

Software:

 

OSX seems to only real selling point for Macs as yes it has lots of software compared to Linux and not as many security issues as Windows.

However I feel OSX is weakening in terms of what it offers, with WINE on linux and good security practices on Windows it makes the price point of OSX really insane as the only way to get OSX legally is to buy a Mac.

OSX in terms of usability isnt bad as while I never owned a Mac I can easily navigate around one but still the appeal of OSX seems very loose with Linux being free on any computer.

 

Really though when you can build your own PC and know what you are doing the appeal of a Mac seems superficial at best.


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#2 smax013

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:39 AM

Okay here is a question I always wanted to ask a apple community but since discussion would probably get me banned by mad mods and the topic sealed under the vault deep in the core of Area 51 or something.
Regardless with Apples new hardware refresh coming out the big question on my mind is why the heck are people still buying Apple computers?
 
Here is my generalized beef with Apple especially under the Tim Cook leadership:
 
In the past Apple used to mean good quality products, even with the high prices there used to be an aura of getting something of value and well worth the money.
While Steve Jobs might not have been the genious everyone says he was he still knew how to present his product and deliver it in a form of decent presentation and good quality.
The Apple of 2007 is much different than that of 2017.
Apple is no longer the bold innovator nor the badge gold standard of hardware, it is sad shell of its old self more obsessed with the iPhone and while the iPhone keeps apple relevant it is unsure if Apple will remain so even with the iPhone in play.
To see what really is why I question anyone still loyal to Apple for their PC's all goes to several factors.
 
Hardware:
 
Laptops:
It amazes me that a Laptop that costs up to $1,599.00 only offers a single port to charger and connect to other devices.
Sure wireless may be "the future" but reliable wireless charging and connectivity is still a long way off.
The Macbook just utterly makes me sick by being a glorified Chromebook in terms of connectivity.
The Macbook Pro with its "touchbar" is still a big joke overall making me wonder why it was even invented if Apple wants to push the iPad.
Apple seems to be more cutting corners in some places while being insane in others.
The appeal of a Macbook is extremely low right now especially when you consider build quality, even lower end laptops like the Dell Inspiron 15 7000 Gaming laptop can kick the snot out of a Mac Pro even with a core i5 model and even if you are a media content creator there are still better laptops out there like the Dell Precision 5510 for about the same price as the Macbook pro.


There is much you say that I agree with, BUT I will also not that what works for me or you is not what works for everyone else.

So, while I find the MacBook with just one port and a rather under powered processor all so that it can be super thin and weigh only 2 lbs to be stupid, it works for a lot of people. For some people it fits their needs rather well...i.e. a very portable laptop that can run productivity apps while doing some fun things and they don't need a ton of ports. While I think only one port is dumb and I am surprised that Apple did not learn their lesson when they only did one port on the original MacBook Air and took flack for it, I do still understand the concept. I have an 11" MacBook Air that I love as my portable computer...but it has three ports (two USB ports and one Thunderbolt port) in addition to a dedicated charging port. I would not trade it for a 12" MacBook because of those ports. But, I love the size and portability.

I will disagree that the MacBook is a glorified Chromebook. It can still do lots of things that a Chromebook cannot.

I do definitely have a beef with Apple's "every thing must be super thin and light" design attitude. For example, I don't believe that Apple needed to make the MacBook Pros any thinner than they were when they did the redesign for the 2016 models. Heck, I actually think that my 2014 rMBP could be a bit thicker to accommodate a little bit bigger battery and maybe still have an ethernet port. The "thin is in" for every laptop (and some desktop models) is definitely a downside to me. Sure, have a model or two that is thin and portable, but also have at least one true "Pro" laptop that does not sacrifice function & power just to be thin and super light.

I am no where near sold on the idea of the Touch Bar, especially since they effectively jumped the price by $300 just for the Touch Bar. While I would likely like having the TouchID aspect, I am just not sure how much I would use the rest of the Touch Bar. But, then considering I am not in the market for a new MacBook Pro, it is not something that I am going to worry about too much.

I am also not too fond of the Thunderbolt 3/USB 3.1 only ports. Yes, the ports are versatile and powerful...that aspect is cool. But they require a dongle/adapter to do just about anything with any current hardware anyone might have. That also might OK. The entirely stupid part was that Apple could not bother to toss in at least on USB-C to USB-A dongle, especially with it likely costs them like maybe $10. That was colossally stupid on their part and still is.
 

Desktops:
Apples desktops are a total utter joke, while there can be some argument for the Macbook the iMac and other such products really are laughable.
Apples Mac Mini's are the biggest joke ever played to make a affordable Mac, even the earlier Models seemed to be a pure tease to those who wished to have a Apple logo on their computer.
The iMac all in ones may be cool to look at but are limited in hardware upgradibility and customization without paying top dollar.
Even if one were not skilled in building their own PC can still buy a high quality computer for far better long term value, I rather someone buy a ibuypower or Origin PC then a Mac that would be not much able to be upgraded.
And the less said about the iTrashcan the better.


While I would certain prefer to see an mid-size tower from Apple, not everyone wants a tower. For a lot of computer users, there is a lot of appeal to an all-in-one. Less cables and connections to figure out. Not every one is like use and likes to tinker with their computer. Some people want to pull it out of the box and more or less fire it up with minimal wires and cables to have to connect. I know...it is shocking. I LOVE tinkering with computer. I had fun building my new Windows desktop even when CoolerMaster did not thread some of the stand off holes well and it took me a bit of work to actually get three of the stands off to start "biting" the threads. But, not every one is like me.

So, the iMac works for a lot of people. It might not for you...if so, then there is a simple solution...don't buy one.

Can you get Windows towers from some PC manufacturer that is cheaper than a similar spec'd iMac? Sure. But, then if you truly find an Apple to apple comparison (pun intended) where you compare an iMac to an all-in-one Windows computer with similar specs, similar screen size & quality, and similar features, then there is a good chance it will be similarly priced. Making components smaller to fit in an all-in-one case tends to increase its cost. And that does not even factor in that the iMac is in a market segment that allows for higher profit margins.

As to the Mac Pro, Apple has more or less admitted it was a mistake. They supposedly are working on a new tower/upgradable design, but it will not be out until 2018 at the earliest.
 

Macs are PC's!:
Face it the Mac Vs PC stunt was one of the worst promotions in retrospect as it exposed Apple for who they are, a bunch of highway robbers who charge high prices for the same hardware as seen in much cheaper computers.
Ever since the switch from Power PC to Intel the justification to even call it a "Mac" is a joke at best, Apple has not been a Mac since 2005 and ironically that was the year of the Mac Vs PC advertising boom.
Its really laughable in retrospect.
The "build quality" argument also seems a joke if if you buy a regular PC you can still receive the same quality if you know where to look.


Yes, Macs are PCs...but they are PCs that run a different OS, which makes them Macs. But personally, I have always called a Mac as PC (as in personal computer) even back before they used Intel processors and back before Mac OS X days. I don't consider PCs just computers that run Windows.

As to build quality, yes, you can buy Windows computers that have good build quality. You can also buy Windows computers that don't have good build quality. Apple does generally put out good build quality for all their models. But, the biggest advantage of a Mac is that Apple needs to support far fewer hardware configurations than Microsoft does with Windows. And this has shown up in the various "support" surveys over the years. Since Apple controls everything and has fewer configurations to support, they tend to have fewer problems and it is generally easier for them to solve the problems. This does not mean that they are perfect. Not by a long shot. But, studies and surveys tend to prove this (although Apple has fallen in recent years in some surveys).
 

Software:
 
OSX seems to only real selling point for Macs as yes it has lots of software compared to Linux and not as many security issues as Windows.
However I feel OSX is weakening in terms of what it offers, with WINE on linux and good security practices on Windows it makes the price point of OSX really insane as the only way to get OSX legally is to buy a Mac.
OSX in terms of usability isnt bad as while I never owned a Mac I can easily navigate around one but still the appeal of OSX seems very loose with Linux being free on any computer.


This is the main reason why I buy Apple products. I like the macOS better than Windows. This is at least partially because I "grew up" on the macOS. I had a Mac to use in high school and college. I did not have my own Windows computer until I was like in my mid to late 20s. That does not mean that I did not know Windows. I did computer support during college and it was mainly DOS and Windows 3.1. All of my jobs after college involved using a Windows computer as in my profession all the profession specific software is pretty much Windows only. But, I would use a Mac as my primary home computer as I preferred using the macOS. And in today's world I can use my Mac for both personal use AND work use as I can run my structural engineering software in Windows that is running in a Parallels VM on my Mac. I still like to do some gaming and other things on an actual Windows computer, so these days I build my own.
 

Really though when you can build your own PC and know what you are doing the appeal of a Mac seems superficial at best.


To you.

To me, there are things that I like about using a Mac that I still cannot get with my Windows tower that I built. While I like tinkering, I also at times just like something that works without the need to tinker or figure out problems. I have had to many situation with Windows in the past where I had to spend too much time figuring out problems or tinkering. There are times where I just want it to work. And while Apple is slipping a little bit lately in that area, my Macs have pretty much always just worked with no problems or need to tinker.

To me, the idea of playing with all the different flavors of Linux to find one that I like best does not fully make sense to me. While there is some appeal to the part of me that likes to tinker and "play with" computer stuff, there is also the side that just wants to get things done that wonders what the appeal is.

So, in the end, to each their own. Why get so worked up about what someone else chooses to do? How does the fact that I might prefer to use a Mac hurt or impact you in any way? Every one has their way of doing stuff and every one has their preferences and/or biases when it comes to computers. Who cares? If some one wants to buy a sub $300 laptop that weighs 5 lbs and has a cheap plastic case and largely under powered specs, then let them if it fits their needs. If someone wants to go buy a $3000 MacBook Pro or a $4000 Surface Studio, then let them if it fits their needs and is what they want.

#3 techghost

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 07:46 AM

Good discussion going on. It all depends on the perception a person has. It is the positioning that is still working for Apple and it will continue to do so. 



#4 MadmanRB

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:11 PM

Well the problem with the "simplicity" arguement is that really anything can be simple if you put effort intro it.

Building a computer is not scary or hard.

 

Difficult? Yes as the wiring bit can be a pain but at the same time once its done its done.

Honestly I think anyone can build a computer, sure it can be a bit tricky at parts but that mainly connecting wires and putting in the screws.


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#5 smax013

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:35 PM

Well the problem with the "simplicity" arguement is that really anything can be simple if you put effort intro it.
Building a computer is not scary or hard.


For you and I. For an awful lot of people building a computer is hard and if definitely scary. Something always seems easier and not scary when you know what you are doing and comfortable doing it.

I have dealt with at least one person who even the simplest tasks on even a Mac scare the crap out of her. Do I believe or even know that she could handle those tasks? Sure. And she usually does when she is willing to learn. But, computers still scare the crap out of her. At least part of it is that she does not have any where near the interest in computers or desire to learn about computers that I do. But, then there are things that she does that I have no interest or desire to really learn about. That is part of life.
 

Difficult? Yes as the wiring bit can be a pain but at the same time once its done its done.
Honestly I think anyone can build a computer, sure it can be a bit tricky at parts but that mainly connecting wires and putting in the screws.


Even putting aside experience, some people just have a natural ability with certain things. Personally, I tend to pick things up very easily. I rarely need to read manuals and when I do, they typically "just makes sense", even the extremely, poorly written ones. OTOH, you now toss in someone who does not pick things up quickly and give them a manual or explanation that is poor or overly technical, and you might as well be speaking a foreign language to them. And to some people even doing the most simple things on a computer is like learning a foreign language. It is easy to dismiss that aspect if it does not happen to you.

And some people are scared of breaking something (either software or hardware wise) on their device or pile of parts that cost them hundreds if not maybe thousands of dollars.

At the end of the day, if working with computers was really easy for everyone, then there would effectively be no reason for these forums as everyone could just figure things out on their own. That, however, is obviously not the case. So, when one is feeling that something that you find easy should also be easy for someone else, just try to think of something that other person does that they make look easy that you find difficult to do (this assumes you know the people and know other things that they can do).

Sure, it frustrates the heck out me at time when something that I see someone else struggling with seems so easy to me, but once I suppress that initial emotional response, I can usually exercise a little empathy and realize that it is not actually easy for them and be patient and understanding. That can be hard, but it can be done. Not everyone is "built" like me or thinks like me, as much as at times I might think the world would be a much better place if that was true. :grinner:

#6 mjd420nova

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 08:47 PM

I service anything my clients desire, including Apple stuff.  Those users whole buy Apple gear see it as a status symbol, like a Rolls Royce.  Once on the internet or sending e-mail, no one knows the origin OS  unless the user says something.  Gloating is a vice that seems to over take some users, if in person, usually with a raised voice.  I prefer an Intel/MS pairing, easier to troubleshoot and find those difficult faults without throwing a lot of parts at them.



#7 smax013

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:38 AM

Those users whole buy Apple gear see it as a status symbol, like a Rolls Royce.


Ah, the "status symbol" or "it looks nice" is why they buy it generalization. For every person I have personally encountered in real life that have bought and used a Mac, this is utterly untrue. It is certainly not the reason why I bought a Mac. But, sure keep tossing up the generalizations.

#8 Just_One_Question

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 10:29 AM

Wow, it is rare for me to agree completely by 100% with anyone, but such is the case now. Smax013 entirely explained my train of thought on the subject, following it eerily precisely. I will just add this comment of mine from a topic I started some time ago, named "Is Apple the only tech company that 'gets it'?", in order to further supplement my views.

 

I feel like 99% of technology companies don't understand that consumer electronics, and especially those with some sorts of a display, are meant to simplify your life. Hate to generalize, and even more so since I tend to pride myself on being an individualist, but all new tech is hugely over-complicated needlessly. Remote controls have a thousand buttons, washing machines have 20+ modes and a 100 combinations of buttons and switches, mobile phones have features that I've never in my life even seen or heard of anybody using. One example would be the camera on a new phone which markets itself to the elderly market. Why the hell would you complicate your device with a feature that not only takes resources, but also no 80+ year old person ever asked for.
In this light I would actually like to kinda congratulate Apple that even though their stuff is quite pricey, have understood what tech is supposed to do - to ease your life. Hell, if every company was at least a little bit more thoughtful & didn't put so much bloatware in their products, maybe this web-forum wouldn't exist. Not because it's not good, but simply because it wouldn't be needed as much.
I don't know, I just don't get what is up with all this functionality which does nothing but clog your brain until you figure out what and how it does it. Maybe it's just me though.
If you've read this far, thank you and have a lovely day!
:)

Good day, everyone!:)



#9 smax013

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 06:18 PM

Wow, it is rare for me to agree completely by 100% with anyone, but such is the case now. Smax013 entirely explained my train of thought on the subject, following it eerily precisely. I will just add this comment of mine from a topic I started some time ago, named "Is Apple the only tech company that 'gets it'?", in order to further supplement my views.
 

I feel like 99% of technology companies don't understand that consumer electronics, and especially those with some sorts of a display, are meant to simplify your life. Hate to generalize, and even more so since I tend to pride myself on being an individualist, but all new tech is hugely over-complicated needlessly. Remote controls have a thousand buttons, washing machines have 20+ modes and a 100 combinations of buttons and switches, mobile phones have features that I've never in my life even seen or heard of anybody using. One example would be the camera on a new phone which markets itself to the elderly market. Why the hell would you complicate your device with a feature that not only takes resources, but also no 80+ year old person ever asked for.
In this light I would actually like to kinda congratulate Apple that even though their stuff is quite pricey, have understood what tech is supposed to do - to ease your life. Hell, if every company was at least a little bit more thoughtful & didn't put so much bloatware in their products, maybe this web-forum wouldn't exist. Not because it's not good, but simply because it wouldn't be needed as much.
I don't know, I just don't get what is up with all this functionality which does nothing but clog your brain until you figure out what and how it does it. Maybe it's just me though.
If you've read this far, thank you and have a lovely day!
:)

Good day, everyone! :)


I should note that not everyone wants that "just works" type approach. Some like to tinker. Some like to build desktops. And so on. And for those, then a Mac likely is not a good options (although there are ways to tinker with some, if not all, Macs, just not to the degree you can with a self built tower running either Windows or maybe Linux).

The ultimate point is the not every one is the same. So, I consider it good that there are different options out there so that each of us can choose the most appropriate option for ourselves.

#10 The-Toolman

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 06:51 AM

the big question on my mind is why the heck are people still buying Apple computers?

Why are people using Windows 10.  :scratchhead:

Why are people using Linux instead of Apple and Windows.  :scratchhead:

 

Perhaps it's what they are the most comfortable with. 

 

People buy what they want and not always may be the best choice according to others.

Are others the authority as to what's best for an end-user to use or buy.

 

HELL NO.

 

I buy what I want and I don't care what others thinks.  :thumbsup2:


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(Mark Twain)
 

"Inspiration can be found in a pile of junk. Sometimes, you can put it together with a good imagination and invent something."

(Thomas Edison)


#11 mjd420nova

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 11:51 AM

I don't get to choose what I service and our pride is in dealing with any computer, regardless of brand or non-brand it might be.  I still have clients with 1990 Qume terminals with Intel processor boards added to get a touch screen function and networking.  Anyone ever hear of "Squirrel Computers"?  The Apple users are mostly research type individuals who work for large corporations and are allowed to buy anything to do work at home.  As explained to me, they choose Apple for a single function, while using Intel equipment at home and work.  I guess that's a way to isolate the work and play from each other.



#12 The-Toolman

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:39 PM

I had someone give me a Apple Desktop imac (A1311) it was DOA so I opened it up and found the power fuse had popped.

Well Apple thinking that they are special had some odd ball value and size fuse not to mention the outrageous price of the fuse from some Apple ripoff service centre.

 

I rifled through my parts box after connecting a multi-meter where the fuse was supposed to go and read how much current it was pulling and found a good replacement close enough and soldered it in works like a charm.

I used it for a little while and didn't see anything special about it anymore than Windows or Linux it's just another desktop computer.

 

Would I buy one? NOPE.

 

It sits unplugged on the shelf in my shop and maybe one day I'll put Linux on it or may take the i5 processor out and buy a motherboard and build a new box.


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"Inspiration can be found in a pile of junk. Sometimes, you can put it together with a good imagination and invent something."

(Thomas Edison)


#13 MadmanRB

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:52 PM

Well for those who are willing to defend Apple I ask this:

 

Why the high cost?

 

Honestly why do Macs have to cost so much money?

 

There is nothing special hardware wise about them, unless they have solid gold and diamonds inside of them.


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#14 The-Toolman

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 04:26 PM

For some reason and I'm basing this only on the Apple users and owners of phones and computers that I know.

They seem to think that anything Apple is just better period.

 

My analogy of them is that they just don't know any better.

Yes I have told them this.

 

Personally I'm all for people buying what they want and discovering it doesn't live up to the potential which they expected it to.

I enjoy hearing them complain what a big POS it is.  :hysterical:

 

I buy what I know works best.

Research well what you want to buy before you buy it.

 

Exercise the little greys cells.


Edited by The-Toolman, 11 June 2017 - 04:37 PM.

"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer."

(Mark Twain)
 

"Inspiration can be found in a pile of junk. Sometimes, you can put it together with a good imagination and invent something."

(Thomas Edison)


#15 mjd420nova

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 09:19 PM

Since the beginning, Apple has always maintained a tight control over the service and parts for their units.  When we first started the field service part, in 1985, Apple refused to sell us any parts or diagnostic gear/software.  We bought some of our own units and striped them for parts to service our clients.  When they refused to service our bad parts, we had to begin in house repair of boards to keep things going.  Yes, the parts used are a bit off from the "standard" type of components.  I have an old MAC SE 30 that sits on the shelf, mainly for display as it really has no use anymore with only a 30 MB hard drive.






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