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A few Linux web sites too tough for this newbie to understand


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#1 RolandJS

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:21 AM

Guys, Gals:

Debian and PuppyLinux web sites respectively are very geeky to me; I have no idea of what to download for my 32bit and my 64bit Windows 7 Professional, 64-Intel not AMD processor.  My other question: if Linux web sites want to gather in more folks, how about making their web sites' download sections a little easier to understand [for us newbies to Linux]?  Those who live and breathe Linux understand such places, however, not all of us newbies understand.


"Take care of thy backups and thy restores shall take care of thee."  -- Ben Franklin revisited.

http://collegecafe.fr.yuku.com/forums/45/Computer-Technologies/

Backup, backup, backup! -- Lady Fitzgerald (w7forums)

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#2 britechguy

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:38 AM

Roland,

 

        The following is offered sincerely, and without a trace of snark, but do a bit of research into the history of the various Linux distros.  Linux started out as a "geek's geek" operating system and that has a lot to do with the cultures that surround various distros.

 

         There are some that, due to their history and place in the evolution of Linux, are and will remain far "geekier" than others.  I'd say the two you refer to definitely fall into that category.  Debian goes way back (1996) and Puppy, even though more recent (2003), still evolved before there was much concern about "the great unwashed" (read: anyone who doesn't already know Linux).  If you look at others, like Mint, the culture is significantly different though I always feel that the Linux world, in general, is geekier because it all started with uber-geeks and up until relatively recently it was a badge of honor and way to declare one's geek cred by latching on to Linux.

 

          The wikipedia page on Linux distros (Linux distributions) gives you a sense of the progression.  As a general rule, and there are definite exceptions, the more recent distros are generally targeted at a broader (read: less tech-geeky) audience than the older ones are.

 

           In certain ways the history of Linux is parallel to the history of Christianity:  There are lots of "denominations" and many of them have sprung up secondary to differences akin to arguing, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"  There's definitely a religious zeal, though not in the conventional sense of religion.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#3 Al1000

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

Hi Roland,

It is only in more recent years that Linux has become a novice-friendly operating system. In that time, the developers of some distros have done more than others to try to appeal to novices (as could reasonably be expected).

Debian in particular, seems to cater more for users with some experience of Linux, than for novices. It's perhaps partly for this reason that Ubuntu, and later Linux Mint, both of which are based on Debian, were developed with novices very much in mind.

Everything from installing to using the operating system, is easier with Ubuntu and Mint, than with Debian. That's not to say that Debian is "difficult" in comparison, just that it's not as easy, and is not so designed with novices in mind.

That's why I always advise novices to try Mint and *buntu for their first Linux experience.

Puppy is unique in that it's a "stripped down" Linux operating system; e.g. it's not a multi-user system and does not use file permissions. It is also not as easy to install as Mint or *buntu are. As such, I would not normally recommend it to novices for their first taste of Linux either, unless it's for using on a USB or with very old hardware.

There are hundreds of versions of Puppy, and many if not most are basically developed and maintained by one person, so are hosted at whatever file hosting site the developer uses.

#4 DeimosChaos

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:02 PM

The Debian site is a bit chaotic feeling. You just gotta weed through it and you'll get to the place you want. I landed on the 64bit download section in a minute or so (and its been a long while since I was at Debian's site).

 

What has you confused? Finding the download? Or looking at the index where the downloads live?


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#5 RolandJS

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:08 PM

...Debian site...What has you confused? Finding the download? Or looking at the index where the downloads live?

I have collected so far several 32-bit and 64-bit sets of Linuxes:  Peppermint, LinuxMint, Kubuntu, Fedora, and maybe one more.  I was trying to collect for someday future use Linux that would operate:

-- on 32-bit Intel proc & mobo

and

-- on 64-bit Intel proc & mobo

Perhaps I have enough already to someday experiment with multi-booting?   :)


Edited by RolandJS, 06 March 2017 - 12:09 PM.

"Take care of thy backups and thy restores shall take care of thee."  -- Ben Franklin revisited.

http://collegecafe.fr.yuku.com/forums/45/Computer-Technologies/

Backup, backup, backup! -- Lady Fitzgerald (w7forums)

Clone or Image often! Backup... -- RockE (WSL)


#6 Al1000

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:13 PM

Keeping Linux ISO files for future use means that you end up with ISO files for operating systems that are no longer supported, and/or have been superseded by more recent versions.

At least, that's what I have found. :)

#7 DeimosChaos

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:16 PM

I agree with Al's sentiments. When you want to play with a Linux distro - you might as well go and download it right then. They release updated ISOs pretty regularly. Sure you could just use an older and download all the updates - but might as well just get the updated one and not have to download as many updates! :)


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#8 britechguy

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:21 PM

And I'll "third" what Al1000 and DeimosChaos have both said.

 

An OS is no different than application software in that respect.  Unless you have a reason to download a much earlier version of either (and this does exist - sometimes) you're far better off getting the freshest copy when you want it.   This is all the more the case since you don't spend a lot of time downloading updates after installation and many of those updates are security related.

 

You're never going to have difficulty finding multiple Linux distros for virtually any hardware platform you can think of.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#9 RolandJS

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:35 PM

Thanks all!  Definitely will update anything before installing!


"Take care of thy backups and thy restores shall take care of thee."  -- Ben Franklin revisited.

http://collegecafe.fr.yuku.com/forums/45/Computer-Technologies/

Backup, backup, backup! -- Lady Fitzgerald (w7forums)

Clone or Image often! Backup... -- RockE (WSL)


#10 Mike_Walsh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:53 PM

Hi Roland. Being the resident 'Puppy expert' (or so I'm told)  :rolleyes: , I'll say this much...

 

Puppy is pretty much unique in that the entire thing runs from the very fastest part of your machine - its RAM - and, despite being an average of only 225-250 MB in size, manages to cram an unholy amount of basic, though utterly functional apps/progs/stuff into that tiny space.....because Barry Kauler, it's founder and developer, right from the word go, envisaged it being utilised to keep very old hardware functional. My 14-yr old Dell lappie (which, admittedly, has been upgraded to within an inch of its life over the years) quad-boots four Puppies.....any one of which will give most much newer Windows systems a darn good run for their money. Most people would have tossed it into the nearest dumpster years ago.....an attitude which I don't understand, personally.

 

In the early days, in particular, an awful lot of effort was expended in making sure that every release of Pup was absolutely 'pared down to the bone', and kept as tiny as possible. Don't forget, 15 yrs ago just 64-128 MB of RAM was considered a huge amount!

 

It's also, as AL says, unique in not being a multi-user system.....and in running as root all the time. (Ooh, do we get some stick over that..!!) But here's BK's thinking behind that one:-

 

http://barryk.org/puppylinux/technical/root.htm

 

Yes, the Puppy home site is perhaps not as tidy as some (though it's a huge improvement on what it was when I joined the Forum nearly 3 years ago.) Everything to do with Pup, in particular, is community-based, which means things have to be done by whichever individual has volunteered for a particular task, as & when that individual can find the time to do so.

 

Having said which, the downloads section is a model of clarity these days..!

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Transitioning to Linux is quite a culture-shock for many long-term Windows users.....'power-users' in particular. They find that all their carefully-acquired skills suddenly don't mean anything, because nothing works quite the same.

 

I always recommend this as good reading for most newcomers. It explains the rationale behind much of the 'geek mystique' & 'culture-shock' surrounding Linux.

 

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

 

Please DO give Puppy a try. It's rather reminiscent of Win XP at first sight of the desktop.....ex-users of which are, indeed, a part of its target 'market'. Don't dismiss it out of hand because of its diminutive 'pawprint'; there's a lot of very usable power crammed under that tiny hood.....and because it'll run completely from a USB stick, you can take Pup with you wherever you go!

 

One final word; I would advise the Tarhpup-based releases over the Slackware-based ones.....they're just easier to 'get the hang of' for a newcomer, and are fully intended to simply 'work', OOTB.

 

 

Mike.  :wink:


Edited by Mike_Walsh, 06 March 2017 - 02:15 PM.

Distros:- Multiple 'Puppies'..... and Anti-X 16.1

My Puppy BLOG ~~~  My Puppy PACKAGES

Compaq Presario SR1916UK; Athlon64 X2 3800+, 3 GB RAM, WD 500GB Caviar 'Blue', 32GB Kingspec PATA SSD, 3 TB Seagate 'Expansion' external HDD, ATI Radeon Xpress 200 graphics, Dell 15.1" pNp monitor (1024 x 768), TP-Link PCI-e USB 3.0 card, Logitech c920 HD Pro webcam, self-powered 7-port USB 2.0 hub

Dell Inspiron 1100; 2.6 GHz 400FSB P4, 1.5 GB RAM, 64GB KingSpec IDE SSD, Intel 'Extreme' graphics, 1 TB Seagate 'Expansion' external HDD, M$ HD-3000 'Lifecam'.

 

KXhaWqy.gifFQ8nrJ3.gif

 

 


#11 britechguy

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:04 PM

 

It's also, as AL says, unique in not being a multi-user system.....and in running as root all the time. (Ooh, we do get some stick over that..!!)

 

 

 

As well "we" should!!  It's one of the reasons that I don't think that Puppy is a particularly good distro for Linux newbies.  It's just far, far too easy to "blow your world apart" during the learning phase.

 

This is not to say, by any stretch, that Puppy does not have its place - it clearly does - but its place is definitely not for those "on training wheels."

 

Root access makes Windows admin access seem tame by comparison (since you have to intentionally elevate permissions even if a given userid has admin permissions to begin with).  One really is "all-powerful" as root and if you decide to play with the command line it's entirely possible to do a great deal of harm (and that's even with a slip of the typing finger once you know what you're doing).


Edited by britechguy, 06 March 2017 - 02:04 PM.

Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#12 RolandJS

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:33 PM

Mike Walsh, taking your advice, I found this:

http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-tahr/iso/tahrpup%20-6.0-CE/

I have three 64-bit Intel Proc [nonAMD] computers, which downloads should I do?

 

Britechguy, thanks for your [and others!] advice, I shall continue making routine full images of my OS and data partitions!


"Take care of thy backups and thy restores shall take care of thee."  -- Ben Franklin revisited.

http://collegecafe.fr.yuku.com/forums/45/Computer-Technologies/

Backup, backup, backup! -- Lady Fitzgerald (w7forums)

Clone or Image often! Backup... -- RockE (WSL)


#13 RolandJS

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:08 PM

MikeW, I can't use GnuWin32 GZIP or the SFS files; unless another source carries files that can be opened by 7-zip, Tahrpup Puppy Linux is off the table.  :)


"Take care of thy backups and thy restores shall take care of thee."  -- Ben Franklin revisited.

http://collegecafe.fr.yuku.com/forums/45/Computer-Technologies/

Backup, backup, backup! -- Lady Fitzgerald (w7forums)

Clone or Image often! Backup... -- RockE (WSL)


#14 Al1000

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:17 PM

You would download an .iso file. (The iso file will contain an .sfs file)

#15 Mike_Walsh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:35 PM

Hallo, Roland. Now, then...

 

Well, you've landed on the correct page. That's a good start. This ibiblio page contains every release since the beginning of the Tahrpup series, 2 1/2 yrs ago. For 64-bit, you will want......the 4th entry up from the bottom of the list, tahr64-6.0.5.iso. This is the most recent upgrade of the 64-bit version of Tahrpup.

 

I know what's niggling you, actually; it's the 'amd64' bit you keep seeing on a lot of Linux software, right? That's perfectly OK; it's not what you think it is! It's merely an historical 'nod' to the processor that kicked off the 64-bit home-user revolution, and was successful into the bargain.....the phenomenally popular AMD Athlon 64. I run an X2 dual-core version myself; even now, it's still more grunt than Pup really needs. Pup flies on this old Compaq tower of mine..!

 

(We don't really consider the 64-bit Intel 'Itanium' processors.....that was a massive misjudgement on Intel's part at that time. Even they admitted as such later on; they were already trying to kill off the x86 architecture, and hadn't fully realised just how entrenched it had become with developers, coders, programmers, and the like.)

 

'Amd64' software is exactly the same as 'x86_64' software; it will still run perfectly OK on an Intel 64-bit processor. No worries on that score.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The accepted way to try Pup out is to download the indicated ISO file, burn that ISO file to a blank CD (it's all you need with Pup being so small), then boot from the LiveCD, try 'er out, and see what you think. If you want to keep Pup around to experiment with, you can put 'er on a USB stick, and continue to play with it from there!

 

We more or less insist that newcomers who want to get the best Puppy 'experience' use the following small app from Terabyte Unlimited; BurnCDCC.

 

It's very single-minded, this app; it does one thing, and one thing only. It burns an ISO file to a blank CD/DVD. That's all it does. (Very little chance of making a mistake, that way..! Minimal options, y'see.) Download, unzip anywhere you like, and run the enclosed .exe file. But do make sure you set the write speed as low as possible; no higher than 2x or 4x, tops.

 

https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads-free-software.htm

 

Most Windows burner apps seem to insist on changing all file names/titles into upper case. Not their fault; that's the way they're set-up to work with the Windows APIs. Linux doesn't recognise upper case file names. Let me re-phrase that; it'll recognise upper-case, of course it will.....but almost all Linux system filenames, etc, are written in lower case.....and are 'case-sensitive'. Very much so. If only a few characters are wrong, it'll not work. Period.

 

You don't unzip the ISO file. That's a no-no. You burn it, as is. The burner software I've mentioned for you will unpack the ISO file correctly as it burns it.....that's the way ISO-burning works under Linux.

 

Let us know how you get on with it, please.

 

 

Mike.  :wink:


Edited by Mike_Walsh, 06 March 2017 - 07:41 PM.

Distros:- Multiple 'Puppies'..... and Anti-X 16.1

My Puppy BLOG ~~~  My Puppy PACKAGES

Compaq Presario SR1916UK; Athlon64 X2 3800+, 3 GB RAM, WD 500GB Caviar 'Blue', 32GB Kingspec PATA SSD, 3 TB Seagate 'Expansion' external HDD, ATI Radeon Xpress 200 graphics, Dell 15.1" pNp monitor (1024 x 768), TP-Link PCI-e USB 3.0 card, Logitech c920 HD Pro webcam, self-powered 7-port USB 2.0 hub

Dell Inspiron 1100; 2.6 GHz 400FSB P4, 1.5 GB RAM, 64GB KingSpec IDE SSD, Intel 'Extreme' graphics, 1 TB Seagate 'Expansion' external HDD, M$ HD-3000 'Lifecam'.

 

KXhaWqy.gifFQ8nrJ3.gif

 

 





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