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Space - The Final Frontier - Multibooting Linux


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#1 wizardfromoz

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 03:45 AM

Space-The-Final-Frontier

Contents Posts and Threads


Topic Purpose, Preamble Page 1
Format of Content – Fresh Material, Q&A, Comments Page 1
Question (Angoid) 32-bit cf 64-bit Page 1
Example – 10 Distros (Antilope7724) on MSDOS/MBR setup Page 1
Partition Placement on drive – home, swap, 1st Linux - suggestion Page 1
The Leaderboard Shuffle (TLS) – Distro usurps No. 1 spot on Grub
- reference only Page 1
Q&A and Comments – brief mention of Solus and Trisquel; Install space consumption; 32-bit cf 64-bit comparison begins (32-bit, Linux Mint) Page 1
32-bit cf 64-bit comparison continues (64-bit, Linux Mint) Page 1
Recommended Reading – 2017 New Grub/s which affect order Page 1
32-bit cf 64-bit comparison – finalised, with Table of Results Page 1
Errors (Mine) Page 2
Updates and Upgrades – User-Friendly Maintenance, commences Page 2
The Leaderboard Shuffle (TLS) commences Page 2


This did not come out as neatly as I had hoped, haven't done one in two years.

The unlinked references eg page 2 are because they are yet to come.
 

------------------------------------------------------------


Space-The-Final-Frontier

INDEX


32-bit cf 64-bit comparison – finalised, with Table of Results Page 1
32-bit cf 64-bit comparison continues (64-bit, Linux Mint) Page 1
Errors (Mine) Page 2
Example – 10 Distros (Antilope7724) on MSDOS/MBR setup Page 1
Format of Content – Fresh Material, Q&A, Comments Page 1
GParted – various, yet to be categorised Page 1
Linux Mint – 18.1 ‘Serena’ Page 1
Partition Placement on drive – home, swap, 1st Linux – suggestion Page 1
Q&A and Comments – brief mention of Solus and Trisquel; Install space
consumption; 32-bit cf 64-bit comparison begins (32-bit, Linux Mint) Page 1
Question (Angoid) 32-bit cf 64-bit Page 1
Recommended Reading – 2017 New Grub/s which affect order Page 1
The Leaderboard Shuffle (TLS) – Distro usurps No. 1 spot on Grub – reference only Page 1
The Leaderboard Shuffle (TLS) commences Page 2
Topic Purpose, Preamble Page 1
Updates and Upgrades – User-Friendly Maintenance, commences Page 2


From the looks of it, the simplest thing in future will be to put the page number or link at the start of the line, followed by the textual content, else it looks like a dog's breakfast. I'll work on it.

------------------------------------------------------------


Having just carved off, in the Garage, /dev/sda30 (my 1st time into the 30s), with 20GiB ready for a new Linux:

I have been asked from time to time eg “How do you keep track of so many Linux?”

or

“Why would you run so many?”

or

“How do you not get confused with the different commands in different Families, eg Debian-based and RPM-based?”

or some just say

“Wow”

There is no particular kudos to be garnered by running so many, and it might be regarded as being or making a rod for one’s own back, in terms of maintenance, update, upgrade, and on and on.

There are perils to be faced, where there are occasional incompatibilities, which might include any combination of the following, perhaps even all, eg:
  • hardware issues eg
    • graphics (GPU)
    • memory (RAM)
    • brand of the unit, also includes
    • AMD vs Intel vs other
    • & other
  • the type or types of Linux chosen eg
    • Debian or Debian-based or Debian derivatives
    • RPM based
    • Arch-based
    • Gentoo-based
    • Slackware-based &
    • other
… and the list goes on.

At its simplest, some (thankfully few, in my experience) Linux are like some children – they just do not like to share, lol.

All of the above comes from experience, but I am happy to share mine.

  • If any of the terms or references above are foreign to you, and you think you might like to multiboot (with or without Windows) – now might be a good time to start reading … but hopefully all will be explained here?
  • If you have

    • 60 (yes, I said 60) GiB of hard drive space AND
    • A Recovery/storage/backup Plan in place that is external to your computer – whether it be DVDs, USB sticks, external HDD – whatever (cloud storage is good)
    • … then you are likely able to multiboot
Next up, we will be taking a look at a snapshot of my own circumstances (which might be regarded as extreme, or at least, ambitious), but with a perspective of seeing how some of what I am doing may be applicable to you?
 
Cheers all
 
:wizardball: Wizard

Edited by Al1000, 31 January 2017 - 02:35 AM.
Index added at OP's request


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#2 Condobloke

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:26 AM

I will watch (and learn) with great interest....

 

So far I have only two....but have another on thumb drive which I am currently testing....(Solus)


Edited by Condobloke, 23 January 2017 - 04:29 AM.

Condobloke ...Outback Australian  fed up with Windows antics...??....LINUX IS THE ANSWER....I USE LINUX MINT 18.3  EXCLUSIVELY.

“A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it."

It has been said that time heals all wounds. I don't agree. The wounds remain. Time - the mind, protecting its sanity - covers them with some scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone. Rose Kennedy

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#3 Angoid

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:38 AM

Yes, this will be a great thread to watch.  On my system, I reserved 30 GB for Ubuntu 64-bit, and so-far am only using around 9.5GB.

So it seems that around 20GB per HD install would seem about right if I wanted more.

 

As for maintenance and updates etc, I try to set aside an evening and do them all at that time so this doesn't get in the way of wanting to use the system normally.

Preferably when you have something else, off the computer to do so it doesn't take up all your valuable evening.

 

Have you had any experience with Trisquel?


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#4 Al1000

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 06:23 AM

So it seems that around 20GB per HD install would seem about right if I wanted more


There are also distros that are happy with much less space. For instance I have AntiX 16 installed on a 12.5GiB partition on my laptop, and it uses less than 3GiB.

#5 Angoid

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 10:45 AM

That Ubuntu install is the 64-bit flavour, but I'm not sure if Linux is similar to Windows in that 64-bit distros require more disk space than 32-bit ones ... is that the case?

I could probably get away with reducing that partition down to 12 or 15 GB, but generally I like to have as much space after install as was used by the install.

It's also a big disk, so no need to skimp unnecessarily. 


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#6 Al1000

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:30 AM

64-bit distros use more RAM than their 32-bit counterparts, but disk space used for installation is pretty much the same as far as I'm aware.

It's also a big disk, so no need to skimp unnecessarily.


Indeed. :)

#7 wizardfromoz

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 12:02 AM

For now, I will be adopting a process of providing fresh material at the top of my Post, and answering any questions that I can, or making comments on those of others, at the bottom of the Post.

 

In that way, you will always have fresh material to read, absorb, debate and implement or not - right from the start?

 

Interesting recommended reading, I find, from this Forum, is an old thread found here - https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/596465/10-bootable-linux-distros-on-hard-disk/

 

This thread by Antilope7724 many found extremely interesting, as much for the neatness of the setting up as for the efforts taken by the OP. Antilope was only active for 6 days and hasn't been seen since - although I hope that if he has notification on and someone passes comment at his Topic, he will see it and return with news on how he has travailed since.

 

Antilope's example provides a wonderful template  for an MSDOS/MBR -based computer, and it is a shame that his screenshots did not survive the passage of time, I have a recollection that GParted &c shots looked very neat and tidy (makes an argument for keeping your screenshots if you have the space, in case you leave an image hosting provider or they belly up).

 

In so saying, we will take a look at parts of his Topic from time to time, and examine their relevancy and efficacy.

 

First up:

 

 

 

.... These were installed about a month ago, using the latest distros available at the time.

/sda1 - swap
/sda2 - home
/sda3 - Linux Mint Cinnamon 17.2
/sda4 - extended partition
/sda5 - Ubuntu 15.10
/sda6 - Fedora
/sda7 - Mageia
/sda8 - Chromixium
/sda9 - Puppy Linux Tahr 6.0
/sda10- Kubuntu
/sda11- Neptune
/sda12- PCLinuxOS
/sda13- openSUSE
/sda14- empty


 

 

Only amendments to that I would make is

  1. putting Swap at the end (if Swap is considered necessary).
  2. putting Home immediately before (or back from) that
  3. install your most recently released Linux first, at the beginning of your usable space - that would place Ubuntu 15.10 'Wily Werewolf' (released October 2015) in /sda1 and Linux Mint 17.2 'Rafaela' (released June 2015) at /sda2

I have not looked closely at the others' release dates, I am speaking broadly, for now. We will see why this is advisable (not essential) when we cover what I may describe as "the leaderboard shuffle", where one Distro kicks the other out of top spot.

 

(in fact, I would put Fedora in top spot, because it is the least likely to go anywhere else, but we will see why with that as well. And RPM-based Distros may not be your cup of tea, lol)

 

Antilope also says, in part (my highlighting):

 

 

 

This screen capture (n/a, unfortunately) was taken immediately after I installed all of the distros. I had not made any other changes. I installed each distro with it's defaults from a 64-bit ISO made into a Live USB using Rufus in Windows 10. It's interesting to see how much disc space is taken up initially with each distro.

 

I initially partitioned the hard disc using a Linux Mint Live USB session, using the Gparted partitioning program that comes with it. Each distro was installed with /root assigned to its own respective partition. All the distros share the same swap partition.

 

 

Q&A, and Comments:

 

@Condobloke:

 

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it Brian. I have not used it yet.

 

Last I heard, Brian's Linux setup involved several drives in the same case one of which he has dedicated to Linux, and he has made the acquaintance of the leaderboard shuffle between Ubuntu and a Mintie recently.

 

A review on Solus, which is Debian-based and has a Budgie DE, can be found here http://www.linuxandubuntu.com/home/solus-linux-distribution-review

 

@Angoid:

 

Trisquel? - limited to a live session, liked it.

 

Two (2) attempts to install it have failed, but my circs (circumstances) are rather unusual.

 

Antilope7724 says, in part here - https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/596465/10-bootable-linux-distros-on-hard-disk/?p=3866487

 

 

 

Originally I chose the 10 most popular Linux distros on distrowatch.com and proceeded to install them. I did have trouble with a couple that either wouldn't install or other errors, so I just moved on to the next one until I had 10 distros installed. So there were a couple of distros that gave me trouble and I moved on. I forget which ones they were.

 

 

If you don't ever come across that, yippee yi yo kayah to you :thumbup2: ... or else you have not tried enough Distros, lol.

 

I know the reasons for some of the failures, you the Viewers may have answers also?

 

@Al1000, @Angoid:

 

Yes, initial install space consumed can be very modest, and thus attractive to having that Distro onboard. And in Linux, we are blessed with the divine circs where updates and upgrades can not only not consume a lot of extra space ... you can even make savings, sometimes. See https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/606812/linux-youve-got-to-love-it/  for a couple of examples of that (1st post, and most recent post).

 

Al's mention of antiX-16 (which I enjoy immensely, except for RoxManFM its file manager) prompts mentioning its sibling or cousin, also from Mepis - MX-16, which is likewise thrifty, is packed with packages, and still low-resource consuming ... well worth a look.

 

Likewise Al's mention of

 

 

Indeed. :)

 

... I would add another Smiley to, lol.

 

We are going to be looking at the RAM issues, the Swap issues, the Home vs /home issues, GPT cf MSDOS/MBR, 32-bit cf 64-bit, and also the following:

  • Swap On The Fly  ... very seldom mentioned
  • GParted-style manipulation of partitions, particularly with regard to a hypothetical situation where you have eg three Linuxes side by side, with fixed capacities determined at a time when you did not know you might want to expand on the size of Distro Malcolm In The Middle

I am off to set up /sda30 and /sda31 on the Garage PC ... it is close to the beer fridge.

 

Cheers all

 

:wizardball: Wizard



#8 Angoid

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 06:35 AM

Wiz, if you're going to edit the first post in this thread with your updates, will it be possible to indicate what's new with a date of when it was added?

Otherwise, it's possible to end up having to read the entire thing again just to find a small addition buried in there somewhere ... if I know when new content was added, then I can zero in on that and recap as necessary.

 

Just a thought!


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#9 wizardfromoz

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 02:33 AM

Poor wording on my part, and an understandable misinterpretation on your part, friend Angoid. See below.

 

FRESH STUFF

 

Other commitments slowed me down somewhat, but I have downloaded and put on my Multisystem stick two (2) iterations of the Ubuntu 16.04 'Xenial Xerus' desktop .iso - one is the 64-bit, the other the 32-bit, this in response to previous input.

 

That was the plan.

 

With the 32-bit version, I had a stumbling block such as Antilope describes

 

 

...So there were a couple of distros that gave me trouble and I moved on.

 

... and I did, but the reasons for this will be worth looking at, as you may face this yourself.

 

Instead, I altered the plan and decided to put on:

 

  1. Linux Mint 18.1 'Serena' MATE 32-bit and
  2. Linux Mint 18.1 'Serena' MATE 64-bit

I got the 32-bit version installed, after it had told me it had failed, and I am off to install the 64-bit version momentarily.

 

Screenshots taken are as follows:

 

The first is my GParted on the Garage PC, fonts modified to show it in one page, lol. /sda30 is for the 32-bit Mintie, /sda31 for the 64-bit

 

 

8VjsAdJ.png

 

 

... you can see my use of Partition Naming to help navigate.

 

Shot 2 is of a broad figure of space consumed by the 32-bit edition, number of files, space left on the 20 GiB &c, as taken from the FM (file manager) Caja

 

 

HgjgrYo.png

 

 

Next is the packages that ship with the 32-bit, as shown from SPM (Synaptic Package Manager)

 

 

DSMyW0q.png

 

 

... and finally, resources used as shown by the shipped System Monitor

 

 

Z6CIvVN.png

 

 

 

 

Q&A, and Comments:

 

Angoid asked at the previous Post about the format of this Topic, and you can see from this Post how that format works ... I hope!

 

New stuff, then Q&A and Comments by me.

 

Suggested reading, if you wish (don't read the whole Topic, it's 17 pages I think), is here,  https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/548703/new-to-linux-newbies-gurus-not-so-newbies-all-distros-tips-lore/?p=3570316   where it shows an Indexing & TOC (Table of Contents) approach to an old Topic, which was well-received, such as

 

 

Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:50 PM

Nice work Wiz!

Here's some more info for your thread.

 

... from Al1000

 

If this Topic has a reasonable life, then I might be able to employ similar techniques here?

 

Cheers for now

 

:wizardball: Wizard



#10 Angoid

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 04:12 AM

Thanks Wiz, sounds good to me, thanks for the explanation!  Me operating in Plank mode (as in, as thick as a ~) :)


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#11 cat1092

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 05:27 AM

64-bit distros use more RAM than their 32-bit counterparts, but disk space used for installation is pretty much the same as far as I'm aware. 

 

 

 

Al, not really a lot more, the 64 bit Linux Mint 17.3 install setup for my wife rarely breaks 700MB RAM standing, and maybe 1.2GB while browsing with Google Chrome. I made sure in Advanced settings of the browser that the option to keep Chrome's background service running was unchecked. This saves huge on RAM, by which chance there's 8GB installed. 

 

And while a 64 bit Windows 7 through 10 will struggle to run on only 2GB RAM, a Linux install will normally run fine, as long as there aren't two browsers open with 15+ tabs each & running VLC, of course this will tax the RAM (& Swap) hard. Speaking of Swap, there is none set on her Linux Mint install, and with much RAM as I have on most of my computers, am inclined to go in the same direction. 

 

That stated, as far as the Topic goes, and it's a question that I've wanted to ask Wiz for close to a year, now that he's opened the proper venue to do so, how in this World is one going to keep all of these distros updated, spend quality time on each in learning, and have time to appear on a Tech Forum? That has been a mystery to me for many months. :)

 

If I had to keep up as many as ten distros, that alone would eat up a lot, if not all of my spare time. I could probably keep up with two, on different computers (maybe Linux Mint MATE & Cinnamon), that's all I feel comfortable with. As it now stands, I have four Linux Mint MATE installs on as many computers, though will update each as I boot into the computer. Not all are ran daily, so this makes it easier for me. :thumbup2:

 

20 & upwards, forget it, after 2-3 days, the USB stick, HDD, whatever, would be formatted, if not, I'd go ape crazy. :P

 

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#12 NickAu

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 03:55 PM

So far all the " information "  could and should have been put into 1 post.



#13 wizardfromoz

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 01:12 AM

GLOSSARY

 

TLS - The Leaderboard Shuffle - I referred to at #7, means putting on a new Linux and its taking top spot on your Grub Menu

 

 

FRESH STUFF

 

So I have installed Linux Mint 18.1 'Serena' MATE DE, 64-bit on my /dev/sda31 - now I have both the 32-bit and 64-bit Serenas to compare.

 

Following what I did previously, the screenshots come out as follows:

 

Pic 5

 

 

TlDhPCP.png

 

 

Pic 6

 

 

RggdX6V.png

 

 

 

Pic 7

 

khm272W.png

 

 

and my GParted now looks like this:

 

Pic 8

 

gYtotAJ.png

 

 

Note that I have now:

  • removed the Partition naming of where I was going to install the 32-bit and 64-bit Serenas, and
  • labelled instead the Label column for easy reference - this is particularly useful feature of GParted I use often to tell what I am doing with what partition, but also for forward planning eg "Remove this soon"

With both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Serena I installed, I directed them, in the Ubiquity Installer, to have the bootloader (Grub 2) installed in the root partition, that is sda30 and sda31 respectively.

 

Before we (perhaps temporarily) finish up with 32-bit cf 64-bit installs, we'll take a look at how that worked, or didn't.

 

 

Recommended Reading:

 

... is "in-house", and that is at https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/636657/a-new-years-day-a-new-grub-what-are-the-consequences/

 

... in particular, #3 and #7 from Al1000, and #8 from Condobloke - will be referred to here.

 

BTW, since I began that Topic, there is yet a newer release (since 3rd January) of an updated Grub for Debian-based Distros, with "3.7" on the end.

 

 

Q&A, and Comments:

 

Nick has said

 

 

So far all the " information "  could and should have been put into 1 post.

 

... and that is so, if I wished to wait a week between  publishing Posts. But I am hoping that by taking this modular approach, at least two (2) things can be accomplished:

  1. That I can provide The Viewers with information they can begin to research if they are interested, and to employ in their own circumstances, if they are so inclined   AND
  2. So that it makes it eminently easy for me to provide a TOC and Index a little later on - that one I provided at the old Topic referred to took at least 8 man-hours to compile. Here, for example, approaching the end of Page 1, it might read eg "Page 1 (link) - 32-bit and 64-bit comparison, space required and resources used" ... easy peasy for all to use, and me to generate?

In the end, I am a Team Player, and if Staff tell me a better way to do things, I can try to comply. :)

 

@cat1092:

 

Cat has observed

 

 

That stated, as far as the Topic goes, and it's a question that I've wanted to ask Wiz for close to a year, now that he's opened the proper venue to do so, how in this World is one going to keep all of these distros updated, spend quality time on each in learning, and have time to appear on a Tech Forum? That has been a mystery to me for many months. :)

 

... eminently relevant. :thumbup2:

 

Having installed this 64-bit 'Serena' MATE, I am going to try a couple of things with a shell script I have, and report on that as soon as I have given them a test run. There are other options as well, hopefully to suit all levels of experience for The Viewers.

 

Cheers

 

:wizardball: Wizard

 

Hot Off The Press:

 

MadmanRB has reported here https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/638285/arch-drops-32bit-support/

 

... that Arch are dropping support for 32-bit. This may influence The Viewers in their choices for multibooting options. Thanks Madman.


Edited by wizardfromoz, 26 January 2017 - 01:19 AM.


#14 cat1092

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 03:34 AM

So far all the " information "  could and should have been put into 1 post.

 

Yeah, I don't quite get a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit system, maybe Wiz can enlighten why on that. :)

 

Cat


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#15 wizardfromoz

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 03:21 AM

FRESH STUFF

 

GLOSSARY

cf – (Latin – abbreviation for confer – to compare), eg 32-bit cf 64-bit

FM – File Manager eg Caja (pron. Car-har), Nemo, Dolphin, Nautilus, PCManFM, RoxManFM, Thunar

WP – Word Processing (suite) eg Libre Office, Open Office, WPS Office for Linux, &c

 

The table below provides a very basic comparison of some differences in between the 32-bit version and the 64-bit versions of this Linux Mint

 

HT5nUTq.png

NOTE: Memory outcome is inconclusive. The 64-bit version commenced at the above figure, but then fluctuated several times ranging to 1.0 GiB to 1.3 GiB

 

Users of Legacy equipment (somewhat tactlessly referred to as “low-spec”, “obsolete” &c) may find this very brief look at 32-bit cf 64-bit versions of the same Distro, if not illuminating, then at least a stepping stone to seeing if multibooting 32-bit is likely to meet your needs.

With 32-bit there is:

  • a smaller .iso (install file) to download – typically *
  • a few less apps and packages, and that may include different apps and packages **
  • maybe less RAM (memory) required to run it/them, but I have nothing conclusive to verify that

* … in fact, when I downloaded, initially, the 32-bit version of Ubuntu that did not “take”, its .iso was larger than the one of the 64-bit version … maybe something to do with compression techniques used? Speculation.


* * Peach OSI, for example with which I have experience of both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions. The 32 is on Elaine’s old Compaq Presario C300 (60 GB HDD, 512 MB RAM), and I have the 64 (The Works) in the Garage – Thunar FM is on the 32-bit, and only AbiWord as a WP (this is like eg MS Wordpad cf MS Word). The Works has Dolphin as the FM, and some of but not all of, Libre Office shipping with it

 

Suffice it to say that my interest in 32-bit Distros involves looking out for something new for Elaine's old laptop, but also to help me advise others. To that extent I use one of my 3 other computers as a testbed.

 

Q&A, and Comments:

I trust the above answers a little, points raised by both Angoid and cat1092, if not we may need to start a separate Topic.

For now, I am moving on to triaged matters such as

  1. How to avoid TLS (The Leaderboard Shuffle), or even ... can we? and
  2. How the heck do you keep all these critters updated and maintained.

Cheers and avagudweegend

:wizardball: Wizard

 

BTW - between this Post and next, I will be trialling an indexing & TOC template I hope you find useful, both to fast-track and to KEEP track of what you are interested in. :)






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