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What's with this ReFS file system that shipped with one of my W10 OS's?


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#1 cat1092

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 05:25 AM

Last night, I was checking out my TRIM status, as I do maybe a couple times per year with the usual command which always returns a value of 0.

 

 

 

fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify

 

I then noticed while all was OK with NTFS, there was another file system that TRIM hadn't yet been setup on, ReFS. The result was ReFS DisableDeleteNotify isn't currently set. I never installed the ReFS file system, sound like something taken from a similar Linux one (Reiser File System).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReiserFS

 

Note that it's been over a year since I participated in the Windows Insider Program, anyone who isn't in that program should not be subjected to experimental file systems & any other offerings that not 100% stable. Furthermore, customers deserves to know about these issues in an advance notice, so that we can research the changes & make an informed decision in regards to what's best for us. :)

 

This reeks of more of Satya Nadella's underhanded tactics, like shipping out 'node.js' to those with the latest NVIDIA cards, a product of the Linux Foundation, a couple of months before announcing that Microsoft was becoming a Platinum Member (purchased) of that Foundation. The really bad thing was, and one would have to be running Secunia PSI installed to know, was that the latest node.js wasn't in the NVIDIA driver package. However, there's a site for node.js that allows one to download the latest version. Like Flash Player & Java, it's best to manually remove the old node.js version before installing the new, to avoid security risks, rather than piling one update on top of another. 

 

Yet this new file system does much deeper than node.js, it's going to convert NTFS (which has lots more features) to basically an experimental one. Look at this, ReFS has 8 less features than NTFS, one has to go to the bottom of the page to see in a side by side comparison. 

 

Now, for those who are willing to deal with ReFS, here's the fix on this page, the second group of commands, again, at the bottom of the page (Step #5). And it's no wonder when I ran CHKDSK /F which required a reboot, that it was stuck at 100% for over two hours before I forced shutdown & rebooted, than it showed 100% again & proceeded to load into Windows. 

 

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askpfeplat/2013/01/01/windows-server-2012-does-refs-replace-ntfs-when-should-i-use-it/

 

 

 

As a file system, ReFS is not only good for resiliency, it is great for maintaining extremely large amounts of data. With data integrity and recovery features built-into the file system, there is no need to wait for CHKDSK to run to fix corruption. What if you needed to store 500 billion gigabytes in one place?. But why stop there? 

 

Now what consumer has 500 Billion GG of data to store? This sounds to be more of a solution for servers (just as in the Linux world the Btrfs is over ext4, what end users runs), and like Btrfs, what we don't know about ReFS, is it going to hammer our SSD's with writes to destroy these? Sure my SATA-3 512GB Samsung 850 Pro has a 10 year warranty, yet it also has a lifecycle of so many TBW written to the SSD, if that number is reached first, then the 10 year warranty is for nil. I also have a more expensive M.2 512GB Samsung 950 Pro NVMe SSD that's 3.5 times faster than my 2nd best SSD (listed above), and it has only a 5 year warranty. 

 

I'll have choices to make if ReFS becomes the norm, am not going to have my SSD's hammered until they die like those publications who benchmarks them by performing a couple of full write cycles across the drives before each test to help us determine which is best for us. That's their duty, not ours, to hammer these SSD's to the max. :)

 

As for the one PC that I discovered the ReFS file system on, have the last Windows 7 backup image before upgrading to W10 (same for the rest of my upgrades), and after a secure erase of the drive, will restore it. There will be a black screen at first, yet after an update cycle & reboot, this will go away. Will run W7 until EOL, then go with my favorite OS that I use 95% of the time, Linux Mint. Most of my Windows use is restricted to assisting others, and it's been since early 2012 (nearly 5 years) when I last made a transaction on a Windows install, too much Malware, too much placing a new roof on top of an old one, the can has been kicked down the road too far for my comfort. And evidently other also, as until recently, for over a decade, month after month, Microsoft enjoyed a steady 90% of usershare, that's dropped off in the last few months. 

 

Sure there was the bloated 'Modern UI' (codenamed 'Metro') & later improvements, yet underneath, it's still the same. One can go into the Control Panel & type in 'Turn Windows feature on or off', and enable the unsupported .NET 2.0 & 3.5 (just like what came with XP), this option should be greyed out for Home users to prevent Malware infection, only those who knows what they're doing should be enabling such features. 

 

Yet my main concern and Topic is about ReFS, it's pros & cons, is it really appropriate for Home users with 120GB to 2TB HDD's or SSD's to have this file system enabled or in use? And how is it accomplished w/out a clean install of the OS, the upgrades keeps the user files in place, only a Reset or clean install can make it reality, unless Microsoft has a way of doing things w/out telling us, not unusual since Satya Nadella took over, hopping on every latest trend that comes along. Seems like this file system is more appropriate for a Server that rarely gets shut down, whereas there could be corruption by shutting down several times daily. 

 

Finally, just how many Home users, even running Pro, actually takes advantage of Hyper-V? It was introduced with the Windows 8 Pro promo ($40) in 2012, yet few Home users bothers with it, complicated to setup & most uses VirtualBox or VMware Workstation Player (both free), as Microsoft freely gave it to us, yet there were no tutorials on how to implement the feature included, and still isn't with new computers shipping today with 8.1 or 10 Pro. Users has to figure out on their own, or be working in an environment that's running these VM's, 

 

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/try-resilient-file-system-windows/

 

So does this mean clean install = ReFS formatting? Not much use I see for the Home user, and nowhere can I find the impact on SSD's. :(

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 


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#2 Rocky Bennett

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 05:40 AM

I am currently in the Windows 10 preview program and I am running a preview OS for Microsoft. This new file system that you have is not sourced from Microsoft. You should try to find the sou8rce of this new file system and then correct the issue.


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#3 cat1092

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 06:43 AM

Rocky, the thing is, I'm not the only one with the issue running Windows 10, TRIM support for ReFS can be enabled/disabled, so there must be something to it. 

 

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/40028-trim-support-solid-state-drives-enable-disable-windows-10-a.html

 

Plus there are other sources that shows ReFS at a minimum, is in use for Windows Server 2012. ReFS is also listed in this chart.

 

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh831349.aspx

 

And a source from TechNet itself, this goes back to Windows 8.1, though I never seen it on the OS. 

 

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh831724(v=ws.11).aspx

 

Only Microsoft could implement these issues, because it shows above on another W10 Forum how to correct it (first link provided in this post), this was from February 2016. Until I seen it when checking 

 

 

 

fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify

 

I didn't know that ReFS was on the system. What I was expecting to see was the usual 0, which shows that TRIM is working. The other part (ReFS DisableDeleteNotify is not currently set) came across as a total surprize, or a shocker, as I had not the first idea of what was going on. The pictures are there, that's how mine looked. 

 

 

 

62945d1454863045t-trim-support-solid-sta

 

How could Microsoft not be in on this, considering the documents I've presented & can provide more if needed, all it takes is a fast Google search to see that Microsoft is the mastermind behind ReFS, plus it has to be considered that they've became a Linux Foundation Platinum member. They could have been working 'under the Linux table' since Nadella took over (Steve Ballmer would never sell out customers & we all knew how he felt about Linux), I gave one example above, Linux Foundation software (node.js) installed months before the Linux Foundation membership was purchased. Only Microsoft could have approved this. 

 

This new file system may well indeed not be sourced from Microsoft (neither was 'node.js'), yet they have the only say as to what goes on their systems, as far as the major components goes. And the file system is one of these, with lots of proof everywhere it's in use. Here's an article that has the link to the first I posted above & is nearly two years old. 

 

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/443417-ntfs-or-refs

 

Please, how much more proof do you need that this isn't a Microsoft feature (if it can be called one)? :)

 

The main thing that I know for certain was that I didn't voluntarily place it on my W10 install, will have to check out the other four to see if it's in these also. As to how to correct the issue, for now, the only thing I could see logical was to enable TRIM for ReFS, until I know what's going on, as TRIM is what keeps the SSD clean & fast, also garbage collection (known as 'GC') also playing a part, the SSD needs both technologies to function correctly. 

 

Looks like I'm going to have to revert to an earlier build before ReFS was included (may require two or three previous W10 releases), or go back to W7 if more than the one computer is doing this & decide what to do at EOL. NTFS has been working well for years, I don't see the need to change computers distributed to a different file system to another, this is going to introduce issues that may not be able to be corrected. :(

 

Merry Christmas to Everyone! :heart:

 

Cat


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#4 Platypus

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 07:05 AM

Are you sure you're not letting paranoia run away with you?

The TRIM status ReFS DisableDeleteNotify is not currently set means TRIM support for SSDs with ReFS is not currently set, but will automatically be enabled if a SSD with ReFS is connected. (From your first link to tenforums)

 

It simply means the TRIM facility knows what to do if a drive with an ReFS filesystem is ever attached to the computer. It seems perfectly sensible and normal to have TRIM aware of a file system it could one day encounter, and the fact it is still not enabled means it has not yet encountered ReFS on your system.


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#5 Rocky Bennett

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 07:53 AM

Thank you very much cat1092. I am now a little bit more educated regarding this new file system and I will definitely keep my eyes open for any signs of it. I was actually totally unaware of it and so I "assumed" that it was your paranoia that was talking, but after a couple of Google searches, I see exactly what you are talking about.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReFS

 

Thank you for bringing this to me attention.

 

But like I said earlier, I am a member of Windows 10 Preview club and I am currently running a copy of Windows 10 beta edition, but I just searched all of my drives using Mini Tool Partition Wizard as well as disk management and I could see no sign of that new file system. I will keep my eyes open.

 

But to answer your question directly (that was aimed directly at me), I have seen enough evidence to believe you and now I feel more educated.


Edited by Rocky Bennett, 25 December 2016 - 08:01 AM.

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#6 cat1092

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 08:05 AM

After Plalypus gave an explanation as to what's going on, that put my mind at ease. :)

 

Because no sooner than I logged off of this Forum, booted into another W10 install & seen the same. Hopefully my hardware will die before ReFS becomes the standard, because it offers many less features than NTFS as of the moment, although I also realize that Microsoft has to plan for future needs. I'd not want to place a new filesystem on hardware that may be incapable of running it. 

 

Thanks to both of you for your input & have a Merry Christmas! :)

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 





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