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BSOD Error Code 124.


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#1 Vejita00

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 11:30 PM

I've been having this issue on and off for the last year. Each time I try and diagnose it, I have no luck and it sometimes goes away for long stretches but then comes back again. The BSOD is sporadic as hell; sometimes not occurring during very long stretches of gaming. other times it can be back to back, 3-4 times in a row. It happens most often while playing Street Fighter V; but I've also had it while playing Overwatch. Other times it happens just while at the desktop. I've included Dxdiag and the dump from the crash. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2eWuJ096FDlaWo1YkRoOUM3YWM/view?usp=sharing

 

Attached File  DxDiag.txt   36.1KB   0 downloads



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#2 usasma

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 05:17 AM

Late for work.

Start with these free hardware diagnostics:  http://www.carrona.org/hwdiag.html

If all of them pass, then try this procedure (if it's a desktop system):  http://www.carrona.org/strpdown.html

 

More info on the error here:  http://www.carrona.org/bsodindx.html#0x00000124

 

Please run this report collecting tool so that we can provide a complete analysis: (from the pinned topic at the top of the forum)   http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/576314/blue-screen-of-death-bsod-posting-instructions-windows-10-81-8-7-vista/
FYI - I don't often use the Perfmon report, so if it doesn't work please just let me know.
NOTE:  On problem systems it can take up to 20 minutes for the log files to complete.  Please be patient and let it run.

If you still have problems with it running, there's an alternate tool here (direct download link):  https://github.com/blueelvis/BSOD-Inspector/releases/download/1.0.5/BSODInspector-1.0.5.exe

NOTE:
Please zip up the (.ZIP) files - do not use .RAR or other compression utilities. 
.ZIP is the type file that can be uploaded to the forums.

 


Edited by usasma, 30 October 2016 - 05:18 AM.

My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#3 Vejita00

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 06:22 PM

Sorry I somehow missed the post about these two files. I've uploaded them here, I will run the tests shortly as well. I just thought in the mean time, I'd get this information to you. The Performance test complained about alack of anti-virus software, but I do have some. It also mentioned that Nvidia HD Audio is disabled but that is on purpose as it was causing problems in Grim Dawn.

Attached Files



#4 usasma

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 05:03 AM

Please re-enable the nVidia HD audio and then update it to the latest, compatible version.
Test to see if it still causes problems.  If it does, then disable it again AFTER updating it.

 

Only 191 Windows Update hotfixes installed.  Most systems with SP1 have 350-400 or more.  Please visit Windows Update and get ALL available updates (it may take several trips to get them all).
The actual number is not important.  Rather it's important that you checked manually, installed any available updates, and didn't experience any errors when checking or updating.

Please uninstall your wireless XBox controller and physically remove it and it's dongle from your system.
The driver (xusb21.sys) is known to cause BSOD's in some Windows systems.

 

All of the memory dumps are STOP 0x124's - so the hardware diagnostics that I asked for previously are the most likely thing to figure this out.

 

Analysis:
The following is for information purposes only. The following information contains the relevant information from the blue screen analysis:
**************************Sat Oct 29 00:19:39.217 2016 (UTC - 4:00)**************************
Loading Dump File [C:\Users\john\SysnativeBSODApps\102916-9750-01.dmp]
Windows 7 Kernel Version 7601 (Service Pack 1) MP (4 procs) Free x64
Built by: 7601.18798.amd64fre.win7sp1_gdr.150316-1654
System Uptime:0 days 15:42:40.435
Probably caused by :GenuineIntel
BugCheck 124, {0, fffffa800f5d9028, be200000, 5110a}
BugCheck Info: WHEA_UNCORRECTABLE_ERROR (124)
Arguments:
Arg1: 0000000000000000, Machine Check Exception
Arg2: fffffa800f5d9028, Address of the WHEA_ERROR_RECORD structure.
Arg3: 00000000be200000, High order 32-bits of the MCi_STATUS value.
Arg4: 000000000005110a, Low order 32-bits of the MCi_STATUS value.
BUGCHECK_STR:  0x124_GenuineIntel
PROCESS_NAME:  System
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: X64_0x124_GenuineIntel_PROCESSOR_CACHE
CPUID:        "Intel® Core™ i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz"
MaxSpeed:     3300
CurrentSpeed: 3300
  BIOS Version                  1305
  BIOS Release Date             02/11/2011
  Manufacturer                  System manufacturer
  Baseboard Manufacturer        ASUSTeK Computer INC.
  Product Name                  System Product Name
  Baseboard Product             SABERTOOTH P67
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨``
**************************Thu Oct 27 21:31:20.392 2016 (UTC - 4:00)**************************
Loading Dump File [C:\Users\john\SysnativeBSODApps\102716-9843-01.dmp]
Windows 7 Kernel Version 7601 (Service Pack 1) MP (4 procs) Free x64
Built by: 7601.18798.amd64fre.win7sp1_gdr.150316-1654
System Uptime:0 days 12:24:20.220
Probably caused by :GenuineIntel
BugCheck 124, {0, fffffa800f5b5028, be200000, 5110a}
BugCheck Info: WHEA_UNCORRECTABLE_ERROR (124)
Arguments:
Arg1: 0000000000000000, Machine Check Exception
Arg2: fffffa800f5b5028, Address of the WHEA_ERROR_RECORD structure.
Arg3: 00000000be200000, High order 32-bits of the MCi_STATUS value.
Arg4: 000000000005110a, Low order 32-bits of the MCi_STATUS value.
BUGCHECK_STR:  0x124_GenuineIntel
PROCESS_NAME:  System
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: X64_0x124_GenuineIntel_PROCESSOR_CACHE
CPUID:        "Intel® Core™ i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz"
MaxSpeed:     3300
CurrentSpeed: 3300
  BIOS Version                  1305
  BIOS Release Date             02/11/2011
  Manufacturer                  System manufacturer
  Baseboard Manufacturer        ASUSTeK Computer INC.
  Product Name                  System Product Name
  Baseboard Product             SABERTOOTH P67
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨``
**************************Tue Oct 25 20:22:29.613 2016 (UTC - 4:00)**************************
Loading Dump File [C:\Users\john\SysnativeBSODApps\102516-9438-01.dmp]
Windows 7 Kernel Version 7601 (Service Pack 1) MP (4 procs) Free x64
Built by: 7601.18798.amd64fre.win7sp1_gdr.150316-1654
System Uptime:0 days 11:06:00.831
Probably caused by :GenuineIntel
BugCheck 124, {0, fffffa800f5d3028, be200000, 5110a}
BugCheck Info: WHEA_UNCORRECTABLE_ERROR (124)
Arguments:
Arg1: 0000000000000000, Machine Check Exception
Arg2: fffffa800f5d3028, Address of the WHEA_ERROR_RECORD structure.
Arg3: 00000000be200000, High order 32-bits of the MCi_STATUS value.
Arg4: 000000000005110a, Low order 32-bits of the MCi_STATUS value.
BUGCHECK_STR:  0x124_GenuineIntel
PROCESS_NAME:  System
FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: X64_0x124_GenuineIntel_PROCESSOR_CACHE
CPUID:        "Intel® Core™ i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz"
MaxSpeed:     3300
CurrentSpeed: 3300
  BIOS Version                  1305
  BIOS Release Date             02/11/2011
  Manufacturer                  System manufacturer
  Baseboard Manufacturer        ASUSTeK Computer INC.
  Product Name                  System Product Name
  Baseboard Product             SABERTOOTH P67
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨``
The rest of the memory dump summaries are hidden in the Spoiler tag below.  Click on "Show" to reveal them.

Spoiler




3rd Party Drivers:
The following is for information purposes only. My recommendations were given above. The drivers that follow belong to software or devices that were not developed by Microsoft.  You can find links to the driver information and where to update the drivers in the section after the code box:

**************************Sat Oct 29 00:19:39.217 2016 (UTC - 4:00)**************************
vcsvad.sys          Sun Nov 16 04:51:18 2008 (491FED16)
xusb21.sys          Wed Apr  8 10:28:44 2009 (49DCB49C)
AsUpIO.sys          Sun Jul  5 22:21:38 2009 (4A515FB2)
intelppm.sys        Mon Jul 13 19:19:25 2009 (4A5BC0FD)
AsIO.sys            Mon Aug  3 03:03:16 2009 (4A768BB4)
amdxata.sys         Fri Mar 19 12:18:18 2010 (4BA3A3CA)
WmXlCore.sys        Tue Apr 27 16:09:26 2010 (4BD74476)
WmBEnum.sys         Tue Apr 27 16:10:19 2010 (4BD744AB)
mvxxmm.sys          Fri Aug 27 05:49:03 2010 (4C778A0F)
mv91xx.sys          Fri Aug 27 05:49:22 2010 (4C778A22)
e1c62x64.sys        Tue Sep 21 17:34:15 2010 (4C9924D7)
HECIx64.sys         Tue Oct 19 19:33:43 2010 (4CBE2AD7)
iaStor.sys          Sat Nov  6 03:44:52 2010 (4CD50774)
nusb3hub.sys        Thu May 10 03:33:53 2012 (4FAB6F61)
nusb3xhc.sys        Thu May 10 03:33:55 2012 (4FAB6F63)
jraid.sys           Mon Sep 17 02:50:31 2012 (5056C837)
lvrs64.sys          Fri Sep 21 15:02:17 2012 (505CB9B9)
lvuvc64.sys         Fri Sep 21 15:03:12 2012 (505CB9F0)
CORK70.sys          Wed Oct 31 04:55:40 2012 (5090E78C)
ROCCATKV.SYS        Mon Oct 21 23:21:32 2013 (5265EF3C)
mwac.sys            Tue Jun 17 22:06:34 2014 (53A0F42A)
RTKVHD64.sys        Tue Jun  2 06:47:59 2015 (556D89DF)
MBAMSwissArmy.sys   Wed Jul 29 00:26:01 2015 (55B855D9)
mbam.sys            Tue Aug 11 13:35:19 2015 (55CA3257)
nvvad64v.sys        Tue Apr 12 04:46:52 2016 (570CB5FC)
NvStreamKms.sys     Fri Jun  3 07:28:21 2016 (575169D5)
nvlddmkm.sys        Sun Jul 10 18:14:18 2016 (5782C8BA)


http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=vcsvad.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=xusb21.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=AsUpIO.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=intelppm.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=AsIO.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=amdxata.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=WmXlCore.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=WmBEnum.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=mvxxmm.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=mv91xx.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=e1c62x64.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=HECIx64.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=iaStor.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=nusb3hub.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=nusb3xhc.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=jraid.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=lvrs64.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=lvuvc64.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=CORK70.sys
ROCCATKV.SYS - this driver hasn't been added to the DRT as of this run. Please search Google/Bing for the driver if additional information is needed.
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=mwac.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=RTKVHD64.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=MBAMSwissArmy.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=mbam.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=nvvad64v.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=NvStreamKms.sys
http://www.carrona.org/drivers/driver.php?id=nvlddmkm.sys
 
My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#5 Vejita00

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 02:02 AM

This is just an update because I don't want this thread to be closed from inactivity. I've been a bit busy and haven't really had a chance to get at everything in one chunk of time as I would have liked. One, I haven't had the typical BSOD since I posted this thread(Of course.) It can be so sporadic when it wants to be.

 

I ran Memdiag through 4 passes and it passed all of them. I also ran the HWDiag and it passed that as well on all drives. There were also no issues with Malware. I uninstalled the Xbox Wireless driver(Not sure why it was installed as I've never once used a wireless Xbox controller on my computer.) I am in the process of updating all of Windows updates, just trying to be wary of it secretly putting Windows 10 installers on my system as I have no desire to update.(That is why I was so far behind).

 

I also re-enabled the HD Audio and updated my Nvidia drivers(They weren't that far behind anyway).

 

The only issue I have run into so far is that I tried running Prime95 while at work and when I came home, it had a BSOD(Not sure how long it ran for). It wasn't the usual stop error though. This was...

 

Stop 0x00000101 "A clock interrupt was not received on a secondary processor within the allocated time interval"

 

I sadly don't have the dump because for some reason the BSOD was frozen at 65% dumping and did not continue so I had to restart. I have never received that error before and as you could see; its not the usual error I get.

 

 

Thanks in advance, I'll wait and see for when the usual error starts cropping up again. It hasn't reared its head in a few days but that is normal.



#6 usasma

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 02:07 PM

Monitor your temps when running Prime95.

What test(s) did you run with Prime95?  The Blend test mostly tests RAM, the others mostly test CPU and memory controller - but all of them generate heat!

 

If the temps go high, then look at your cooling solution and make repairs to it.

If the temps don't go high, then post back with the answers to the questions above and we'll move on from there.


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#7 Vejita00

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 04:25 PM

I monitored the temperature with Prime95 and noticed the CPU temp became insane. THis is from a blend test.

 

http://puu.sh/sq25I/06b77ab2d6.png

 

However under normal load from games it never breaks 60, the GPU also never breaks 70, even under full loads. I've only been getting BSODs in SFV lately; they are few and far between. Although I did get one just at the desktop yesterday, same stop error.

 

-EDIT-

I am starting to think that number is not legit in that program though because it has stayed at 128 for hours afterward.


Edited by Vejita00, 21 November 2016 - 04:37 PM.


#8 usasma

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 09:20 AM

Modern CPU's should not be able to get to 128ºC (they should shut down way before that).

The easiest test here is to check it out manually (DO NOT TOUCH IT!!!)

 

You can do this by unplugging the system from the wall.

Then hold the case with one hand while you feel around with the other.
DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING INSIDE THE CASE!!! - only get near it.

If you feel it being really hot (128ºC is way hotter than boiling water!) when near it, then that's a problem

Otherwise, I suspect it's a broken sensor.

 

So, then next step is to see if Prime95's Blend test still causes problems.  Does it?

If so, then try the Long FFT and the Short FFT tests also (these test more of the CPU and less of the RAM).  Let us know how they do - and if they have problems faster or slower than the Blend test

(Prime95 basically tests RAM/CPU Cache/Memory Controller)

 

After that, if it's still spitting out errors, try running the CPU diagnostics (from the hardware diagnostics that I suggested earlier).


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#9 JinXiang91

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 09:41 AM

Sorry I somehow missed the post about these two files. I've uploaded them here, I will run the tests shortly as well. I just thought in the mean time, I'd get this information to you. The Performance test complained about alack of anti-virus software, but I do have some. It also mentioned that Nvidia HD Audio is disabled but that is on purpose as it was causing problems in Grim Dawn.

Hi,

BugCheck Info: 
WHEA_UNCORRECTABLE_ERROR (124). Code 124 is CPU Related. You may want to try to put everything back to default settings (BIOS) and also check for your CPU cooling system is working properly. You may want to try Installing Intel Management Driver and see whether it helps.

Thanks.



#10 usasma

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 10:16 AM

More info on STOP 0x124 (WHEA_UNCORRECTABLE_ERROR):  http://www.carrona.org/bsodindx.html#0x00000124

This error is one that's reported to Windows by the CPU - not necessarily an error due to the CPU.  For example, a CPU can report a STOP 0x124 error due to an overheating device - be it the CPU, RAM, a video card, etc

Most often they are hardware errors (which includes overheating), but they can also be due to compatibility issues or low-level driver problems.


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#11 Vejita00

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 12:56 AM

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile. I have been somewhat busy. Thanks for the help in this thread. I ran the additional tests in Prime95, as well as the blend test again. This time I ran each of them for 24 hours without a BSOD.  I also ran Furmark for 24 hours for stress testing my GPU a b it as well, again no BSODs.

 

When I ran all the Prime95 tests. My temperatures were mostly like this...

 

http://puu.sh/sGUxz/91cc686df4.png

 

And these were my temps for Furmark.

 

http://puu.sh/sGVbV/897fdb0af9.png

 

I don't reach that high temperature in any game, that I have ever seen. Also my CPU temp seems to be locked at 128 due to a faulty sensor because I've checked and its not running that hot. I have all after market cooling in my tower and a lot of air flow, so things are mostly running very cool.

 

So still no BSODs from the stress tests but yet the same night I ran the Furmark test. I had two BSODs earlier that night, one in Street Fighter V and another in Overwatch. I also had one the prior night just sitting at the desktop. Prior to that, I had no BSODs for a week. It is very confusing to me because  nothing I do seems to reproduce it outside of sometimes it just happens randomly but yet it never seems to happen in stress tests besides that one time during the blend test(but it was a different STOP error that time)

 

I am starting to wonder if I should just outright start trying to replace parts or build a new rig. The BSODs aren't often enough to really infuriate me but sometimes they happen at the worst times.



#12 usasma

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 04:59 PM

Furmark is a stress test, it's supposed to stress the GPU and it doing so it's expected to generate a lot of heat.

If the heat isn't dissipated properly, then the GPU will overheat.  93ºC is definitely overheating, but not overwhelmginly so.  Please check:

- that the video card is firmly seated in it's slot and any extra power connecters are properly and firmly connected

- that the GPU cooler is firmly mounted to the GPU

- that the GPU cooler is free of dirt/dust/hairballs/etc

- that the fan on the GPU is working an blowing air INTO the cooler

- that the system isn't blowing hot air into the GPU cooler

Beyond that, check at some overclockers forums for assistance with ensuring that your GPU stays cool.

 

We know that there is a hardware problem, what we're trying to do now is figure out what's the most likely problem.
If we can figure out what component is failing, it'll be a lot cheaper than just replacing parts at random (and quicker also).

 

If you're at the point of trying new parts, the video card is the most likely candidate here.
But, you can try this procedure to help identify it more exactly:  http://www.carrona.org/strpdown.html

In the event you start replacing parts, you may want to consider purchasing them from a shop that will let you return them for your money back (if they're not needed).

 

Good luck!


Edited by usasma, 07 December 2016 - 05:02 PM.

My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#13 Vejita00

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 05:46 PM

I've gone through everything in this thread so far. Still unable to replicate BSODs in benchmarks and stress tests yet I am getting BSODs on a regular basis playing FFXIV now as well. The only new thing to report is that now whenever I get a BSOD, I'd saya bout 50% of the time. It randomizes my boot order and I have to go into BIOS to reset it to actually boot in the proper one. Kind of random?



#14 usasma

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 07:10 AM

Have you tried another video card?


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#15 Vejita00

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 09:18 PM

I sadly do not have a spare video card or the money to buy one only for it to turn out to not be the issue. Is that the only option to track this down?






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