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Details of Shut down vs Restart please


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#1 tos226

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:26 PM

For years on XP and Windows7 I do Restart when I want to start over, and I do Shut down when I really want it off. To me they were always identical processes except what I wanted to do next or not.

 

I don't hibernate. I do dual boot Win7 and 10. I don't do fast boot.

 

I've read in few places that there is a difference. And that apparently Restart is a cleaner process. Now that I think of it, even on XP windows updates always asked for restart, but I thought it was because we're returning.

 

Anyway what is the difference?

 



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#2 britechguy

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:13 PM

I believe the advent of Fast Startup/Fast Boot was with Windows 8 and it definitely carries over to Windows 10.  It is enabled by default.

 

If Fast Start/Boot is enabled then a Shut Down is not a full, complete shut down but is an abbreviated form of hibernation and uses a hibernation file.  In true, full hibernation when the system is being shut down a file image of the OS state as well as the application program states are written out to disc for retrieval when the machine is turned back on.  When Fast Startup/Boot is enabled, the hibernation only includes the OS state, not the application program states, but these are still written out to disc for retrieval when the system is fired up again.

 

By contrast, Restart intentionally saves absolutely nothing regarding the OS state or the applications states.  After shutting down it reloads the OS from scratch from the disc drive files that make up the OS.

 

To me, the above architecture is precisely the opposite of what I think a default shut down an restart would and should logically do (and actually did do, at least with regard to a shut down, in Windows 7 and earlier).  However, once you know this you are able to make the correct choice for what you're trying to achieve.

 

If you go to the Power Options dialog if Control Panel, activate the "Choose what the power button does" link and then, on the page that comes up, the "Change settings that are currently unavailable" link the checkboxes for the four power state tweaks will become accessible.  You can add or remove Hibernate or Sleep from the Power menu, tweak how/when the lock screen appears, but most importantly you can choose to turn Fast Startup/Boot off.  If you do this, then choosing to shut down does an actual full shutdown with no abbreviated hibernation component involved.  When you power up again the OS must load completely from disc like it would for a Restart.  I disabled this option long ago because I didn't see that big a difference in boot time and, more importantly, when I do a shut down I want everything about the current system state to be tossed and a fresh reload of the full OS when I start the machine next time.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#3 tos226

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:58 PM

Brilliant description.
Dirty Shut Down! - For me it all started after I setup dual boot with windows 7. It was being messed up and Windows 7 kept wanting to run chkdsk. Panic time every time it happened.
Once I've disabled both hibernation (which I never use) and fast boot, things have been smooth as silk on both partitions. And I gained lots of disk space once that stupid hiberfil file is gone. Someplace on tenforums was this suggestion for someone who had issues with dual boot.

What made them do the opposite of what we think it does?? Arrgghh.
Setting the Power button it to a clean state shut down sounds great and I shall do the same, just in case, since I never want a dirty state.

Thank you so much for the precise info I was looking for.


Edited by tos226, 06 September 2016 - 11:00 PM.


#4 britechguy

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 02:30 PM

You're quite welcome.  Though the chosen Microsoft paradigm for a regular shutdown is counterintuitive to a number of us, it's not impossible to comprehend once you know about how it's actually working.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#5 tos226

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 11:31 PM

@britechguy,

Looks like M$ has pulled another fast one and wonder if you can comment on it.

see post#5 here:

https://www.tenforums.com/general-support/97437-after-fall-creators-update-shutting-down-significantly-slower.html

 

I, too, noticed that shutdown is a tad slower than before, but that does not bother me really.

Perhaps you can comment on these

1 - I don't know what they mean by "applications" - are things like firewall and similar included?

2 - I also wonder if it's related to something that does bug me: when I want to restart or shutdown, windows sometimes tells me that someone else is logged in. It might, or might not, be related to change of users (one admin one limited), but I'm careful to close anything I've used before asking to restart or shutdown. Any idea if it's related to the new 1709 features?

3 -  if they really remember what was used in a previous session, do they store it during shutdown? If so, it might corrupt my systems in dual booting as fast startup or hibernation did till I shut it all off.

4 - Also, when I login as admin, in task manager it always shows two users even if I haven't used both in the same session. Makes sense?


Edited by tos226, 12 November 2017 - 11:35 PM.


#6 britechguy

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

tos226, 

 

          1.  I have no idea what, exactly, gets stored as part of the system state hibernation and it looks like this feature is, for all practical intents and purposes, just another way of having full conventional hibernation at shutdown, but without calling it that.  Why they did this only Microsoft knows.

 

           The new feature for "starting where you left off" is, I believe, limited to Windows 10 Pro, but I am not 100% sure about that.  I do know that Fast Startup was re-enabled on my machine, but not by the Fall Creators Update itself, but one of the subsequent updates.  I can tell when this happens because my shutdown time becomes slower and my startup time much faster.  I've said many times before that, for myself, I don't want shut down to be some perverse (in my opinion) variant on hibernation - I want the machine to completely shut down and for Windows 10 to reload from scratch from disc when I power up again.

 

          2.  The warning message about others being logged in when you attempt to shutdown (at least when Fast Startup is disabled) or restart has been around since long before Windows 10.   I have never had it come up except when more than one user is logged in to Windows when an attempt to shutdown or restart is made.  Are you certain that you are logging off from the userid after having closed all the programs it was running when you have had two different userids logged in?  Just being logged in, with no programs running for the userid, will still cause this message to be triggered.

 

          3.  The only way anything can be remembered between powerings-on is via being written out to disc and then reloaded.  As I said earlier, everything about this "new feature" appears to behave exactly as conventional hibernation always did.

 

          4.  I cannot imagine why any user not logged in (and I don't count "System") would ever show up in task manager.  I can imagine how this could occur if the machine is actually hibernating instead of shutting down instead.  One way you could try to flesh out if that's what's happened, regardless of the mechanism of hibernation, is to do a Restart and see who shows up in the Users tab of task manager.  A Restart forces a complete shutdown and fresh reloading of Windows 10 from disc.  After that the only user you should see is the one you are logged in as.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#7 xrobwx

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:06 PM

 

 

 The new feature for "starting where you left off" is, I believe, limited to Windows 10 Pro, but I am not 100% sure about that.

 

It is not limited to home, as I have several (3) at work, unmodified (no reg tweaks or otherwise, just installed and used) 1709 Win 10 Home's with it present. (I'm not trying to be contradictory, just informative) 


Edited by xrobwx, 13 November 2017 - 01:09 PM.

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#8 britechguy

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:30 PM

xrobwx,

 

           Thanks much.   I appreciate the input.

 

           Any and all neutering that I've done to Cortana since Windows 10 made its debut has been done exclusively using the Cortana & Search settings available at the various points in time through the releases.  I am completely mystified as to why I cannot get them to open after my installation of Version 1709, and nothing else is amiss and neither SFC or DISM finds the slightest thing wrong.  I'm not about to reinstall over this since I have essentially recreated what was Windows Search with the various settings tweaks I'd done over time, and that behavior remains exactly as I want it.

 

           It's good to know that this feature is part of Home and Pro under Version 1709.  It appears to me to be a way to imitate the behavior of full hibernation while still using Fast Startup.  You're still going to pay that time penalty in restarting all the applications, but most people seem to be vexed by slow startup times.  I'd far rather have long startup time with Fast Startup disabled so I know that the OS has been reloaded from disc when I do a shutdown followed by power up sequence.  I don't turn my computer off very often at all, so startup times are not something I sit through very often.


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 


#9 britechguy

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:45 PM

An interesting bit about a possible cause for that mystery "other users are logged in message."  It's not affecting me, but see the search results from:

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Windows+10+WDAGUtilityAccount&t=hg&atb=v33-7__&ia=web


Brian  AKA  Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

     . . . the presumption of innocence, while essential in the legal realm, does not mean the elimination of common sense outside it.  The willing suspension of disbelief has its limits, or should.

    ~ Ruth Marcus,  November 10, 2017, in Washington Post article, Bannon is right: It’s no coincidence The Post broke the Moore story


 

 

 

              

 





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