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Pros and Cons of Paypal


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#1 Al1000

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 06:30 AM

This topic has been started partially to divert off-topic discussion from another topic.
 

No way will I enter all of my personal financial information in untrustworthy looking sites, PayPal only sends the shipping information needed to get the order out, the merchant gets zero financial information, this protects me from DOA orders also, up to 60 days. Paying direct with a debit card doesn't, not to mention the security risks involved.

You may want to read this before glorifying PayPal.  :o
 
Yeah I know, a bit of-topic but very important to know...


Are there any parties listed in that document that you think we should be concerned about?

Paypal obviously has to share some information with some other parties, or else they wouldn't be able to function. For example if they pay money into a bank account, they would have to share sort code, account number and name of recipient with the bank, to be able to carry out the transaction.

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#2 parasush

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 07:50 AM

While starting your business, first thing that is must to figure out is how you're going to accept payment. While cash and checks are still the options but it's hard to run a business without having online payment options. PayPal is the first choice to accept online payment. However, it has pros and cons of this online payment method.

 

Advantages:

 

1. It is easier to setup PayPal account. 

2.You will be able to accept both credit card and Paypal payments.

3.Integrated with almost everything.

 

Disadvantages:

1. Cannot talk to a live person to resolve any query.

2. It banned some email ids associated with some URL's, so sometime it is difficult for customer to send payment. 

3. Transaction fees may be high if you've large sales each month. 



#3 Al1000

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 08:52 AM

That all depends on who your customers are. Businesses who's customers are other businesses, would generally have no need for Paypal. They would traditionally be paid by cheque for the most part, and nowadays by direct electronic payment, BACS as it's called here in the UK..

 

If selling to the public however, these are very good points. I personally choose merchants on the grounds that they accept Paypal, over ones that don't. Like Cat, I prefer to not give card details to businesses I've never heard of.


Edited by Al1000, 26 July 2016 - 08:54 AM.


#4 Guest_GNULINUX_*

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 05:25 PM

Are there any parties listed in that document that you think we should be concerned about?

Paypal obviously has to share some information with some other parties, or else they wouldn't be able to function. For example if they pay money into a bank account, they would have to share sort code, account number and name of recipient with the bank, to be able to carry out the transaction.

The title of the referred document is:

List of Third Parties (other than PayPal Customers) with Whom Personal Information May be Shared

 

Example: You buy something from a typical web-shop where you have an account and can pick up the goods in one of their stores.

Why share any personal data with Third Parties? A single costumer/payment ID (anonymous to all except Paypal) should be enough?

If there's a dispute or problem all can be traced back by Paypal, no need to exchange extra information before that...

 

Paypal is a safe and easy service but don't expect any privacy, that's all I'm saying!

 

Greets!  :wink:



#5 Al1000

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 06:27 PM

The title of the referred document is:
List of Third Parties (other than PayPal Customers) with Whom Personal Information May be Shared

 
Yep, thanks, I got that much, but are there any third parties in the list that you think we should be concerned about?
 

Example: You buy something from a typical web-shop where you have an account and can pick up the goods in one of their stores.

Why share any personal data with Third Parties?


Does Paypal necessarily share personal information with any third parties for such a transaction? As the list says, it's a list of third parties with whom personal information may be shared.

Edited by Al1000, 26 July 2016 - 06:29 PM.


#6 cat1092

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 05:29 AM

 

 

 As the list says, it's a list of third parties with whom personal information may be shared. 

 

With a emphasis on may be shared, this isn't applicable to all counties, some depends on where one resides. 

 

As to money, I've never lost a cent through PayPal & was one of their customers before becoming a Linux user (hasn't cost anything extra to purchase products). Haven't got into the sending of money to another party, just like other such services, PayPal has to make income somehow, it's fair & reasonable to expect to be charged for this service. 

 

 

Example: You buy something from a typical web-shop where you have an account and can pick up the goods in one of their stores.

Why share any personal data with Third Parties? A single costumer/payment ID (anonymous to all except Paypal) should be enough?

If there's a dispute or problem all can be traced back by Paypal, no need to exchange extra information before that...

 

Many eBay sellers are all over the US & the globe, though have learned a lesson to purchase from US sellers only. Still that would be a very long drive for me, plus to drive from the East Coast to California to pick up a $10 item is not very economical, if I were able to make the trip. I rest good in knowing that I have protection for a limited time, both by eBay & PayPal. One doesn't have to use their regular bank account, if not desired, a reloadable debit card kit can be purchased at many retailers, though this can cost more in fees than PayPal would charge for sending money. 

 

Plus no matter how a transaction is made, there's going to be information shared, otherwise how would other companies be able to spam one after making purchases. By the time one's 'unsubscribed', it's too late, there's small companies that buys customer lists to send emails for similar items. One way to block some of this is via browser extensions, may not be the fault of PayPal which is encrypted with https, when the original merchant may not have had the same protection (going back to a point where Al agreed with me). 

 

I've had to use PayPal's protection 4-5 times, and they've always remedied things fast. This is why eBay sellers doesn't get their cash as soon as the sale is made, to allow for the customer to dispute if the item doesn't arrive as described, to allow for a fast refund (often with being able to keep the 'not as described' item), and finally to prevent fraud from online sellers whom accepts PayPal. More & more brick & mortar stores are also accepting the PayPal debit card with the same protections (overruling that of the merchant). 

 

Going back for a second to items 'not as described' & not having to return, this applies to items that are counterfeit. Because in the US, it's illegal by Federal Law to knowingly send these type of items through any of the major mail/package services (USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL & others). That's why PayPal (nor eBay) forces the return of such items in the US. Other world markets may vary on this & the law may not be the same. If a customer reports that they received such an item, repayment is virtually guaranteed. It's hard for one to abuse the system because proof has to be presented, may be pictures of the item, of the package/instructions with typos (a dead giveaway of a counterfeit product), or the item doesn't work/perform as though the original. 

 

My first such encounter was the purchase of a XP Pro Full version back in 2007-08, was greeted with a black screen after first update & check with the validation tool. Contacted the seller with no success, so contacted PayPal, they let eBay handle it internally first. Was refunded the $85 or so that I paid within 24 hours, and after contacting Microsoft, they wanted the copy of the media & sent me a special package for my protection (that's how I learned it was illegal to send these through normal services). The end result was that it was a 'high quality' copy & to my great (& delighted) surprise, Microsoft sent me a Genuine Full version of XP Pro SP3 & included a boxed copy of MS Office 2007 Ultimate for my cooperation. The sample that they received matched several others & were preparing to wrap up the investigation (must have had a suspect). So in the end, I got what was wanted & more, plus a refund from the scammer's account. :)

 

This also shows that every optical drive leaves a unique digital fingerprint. 

 

This is what made me a believer in PayPal's protection. :thumbsup:

 

As long as the the folks at PayPal honors their end of the deal, I'll continue to use their service. :)

 

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#7 Guest_GNULINUX_*

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 05:52 AM

Yep, thanks, I got that much, but are there any third parties in the list that you think we should be concerned about?

Don't know (and don't have the time to investigate each partner) but the fact that those third parties share data with their own partners (beyond my control) makes me reluctant. We all had those totally unrelated advertising mails after an online purchase...  :wink: 
 

Does Paypal necessarily share personal information with any third parties for such a transaction? As the list says, it's a list of third parties with whom personal information may be shared.

That's indeed the whole question and problem! "We may", is that a yes or a no?
Seems totally random from my point of view! I hate policies that are non transparent!
 

Plus no matter how a transaction is made, there's going to be information shared, otherwise how would other companies be able to spam one after making purchases. By the time one's 'unsubscribed', it's too late, there's small companies that buys customer lists to send emails for similar items.

Some people see this as normal, I refuse to accept it... and since Paypal (unnecessary) contributes to that I have my "concerns"...

 

Like I said Paypal is a safe service but don't expect any privacy!

 

Greets!  :wink:



#8 Al1000

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 12:14 PM

I've had to use PayPal's protection 4-5 times, and they've always remedied things fast. This is why eBay sellers doesn't get their cash as soon as the sale is made, to allow for the customer to dispute if the item doesn't arrive as described, to allow for a fast refund (often with being able to keep the 'not as described' item), and finally to prevent fraud from online sellers whom accepts PayPal. More & more brick & mortar stores are also accepting the PayPal debit card with the same protections (overruling that of the merchant).


I used it recently, for a bicycle chain I bought on ebay that never arrived, and Paypal refunded the money within a few days. When I told the seller the chain never arrived he said he would send another one straight out, but I didn't receive it either. I was confident that Paypal would give me a refund so long as I let them know within a month that the item never arrived, which they duly did.

I have no complaints about Paypal either, and would much rather use their service than give card details to merchants on the internet that I've never heard of.

@GNULINUX

Don't know (and don't have the time to investigate each partner) but the fact that those third parties share data with their own partners (beyond my control) makes me reluctant.


I would be very surprised if any of these third parties share any of Paypal's customers' data, with any other third parties, excepting when contacting authorities in cases of fraud.

We all had those totally unrelated advertising mails after an online purchase...


Is there anything to suggest that this is because of Paypal sharing data with any third party? Again I would be very surprised if that was the case, and think it far more likely that the merchant that you made the purchase from, or a third party that they share data with, would use your email address to send advertisements to you. Nowadays though, these things are usually optional, and at least in the UK, one must be able to unsubscribe to email lists for them to be legal.

That's indeed the whole question and problem! "We may", is that a yes or a no?


That would depend on the transaction. For example, the first item in the list is a list of banks that Paypal "may" share information with:

"To allow payment processing settlement services, and fraud checking."

So if a transaction entails dealing with any of the banks mentioned, then Paypal would share information with that specific bank, for their specific stated purpose of allowing payment processing settlement services, and fraud checking. Because only a given customer's bank can allow payment processing settlement services and fraud checking for that individual, Paypal could not share the details with any other bank for that purpose.

Some people see this as normal, I refuse to accept it...


I don't see how Paypal, or any other financial institution for that matter, could operate without sharing customer details with any third party. So I see it not only as normal, but as absolutely essential.

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:41 PM

 

Don't know (and don't have the time to investigate each partner) but the fact that those third parties share data with their own partners (beyond my control) makes me reluctant.

I would be very surprised if any of these third parties share any of Paypal's customers' data, with any other third parties, excepting when contacting authorities in cases of fraud.

 

Do you really believe what you're saying?

Just picked one of their third parties and voila... Privacy Policy Medallia, Inc. (USA) (search for Third-party Partners).

 

 

We all had those totally unrelated advertising mails after an online purchase...

Is there anything to suggest that this is because of Paypal sharing data with any third party? Again I would be very surprised if that was the case, and think it far more likely that the merchant that you made the purchase from, or a third party that they share data with, would use your email address to send advertisements to you. Nowadays though, these things are usually optional, and at least in the UK, one must be able to unsubscribe to email lists for them to be legal.

 

Maybe test with different email addresses and be sure? Yep, I can confirm, different spam in both email boxes!  :wink:

 

 

Some people see this as normal, I refuse to accept it...

I don't see how Paypal, or any other financial institution for that matter, could operate without sharing customer details with any third party. So I see it not only as normal, but as absolutely essential.

Your partial quote makes it a bit out of context... but hey I'm flexible!  :P

Those third parties should be (like I said before) able to work with an "anonymous consumer/payment ID", but Paypal prefers to share more...

 

Here's another view on it...

 

I think I made my point, we just have a different view on privacy!

I rest my case!  B)



#10 cat1092

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 03:28 AM

And this (part of the link you provided) would apply to any debit/credit card transaction. 

 

 

 

PayPal will simply mark your account as “closed” and you can’t get into it anymore, but it will “retain personal information from your account for a certain period of time” – probably forever – to do all sorts things, including “take other actions as required or permitted by law.” Yup, as permitted by law. It won’t do anything illegal with it. That’s the only promise. Alas, there aren’t exactly a lot of legal restrictions in the US on what companies can do with personal data.

 

PayPal is not going to do anything illegal with your information. :)

 

So when you find one of those 'hard to find' items on a site that may not be so secure (http connection only), it's either input all of your financial data & take the risk of it becoming stolen, or choose PayPal, which only provides the merchant the delivery address to send the merchandise. 

 

In the 8-9 years I've used PayPal, have never had a single breach of my account. Not one. Even on XP/W2K computers while supported, and after W7 was. Nowadays I perform my transactions on Linux Mint only, and when accessing my bank, will use a burned, finalized DVD & boot into the Live media to access my account. 

 

If one doesn't want PayPal cookies on their computer, they can do the same, I do myself from time to time. Plus I have a browser extension that deletes these cookies (even the LSO ones), in Click & Clean. There's also 'Self-Destructing Cookies' for Firefox users, that gets rid of these upon closing the browser. Some may see this take place when closing tabs. 

 

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/self-destructing-cookies/?src=api

 

When someone runs across a financial institution of payment method that doesn't collect information as required by law enforcement (to hunt down money laundering & other illegal activities, including tax evaders), please post the site so that we all can benefit. :)

 

The others, we just have to learn to live with, or order by snail mail, and even then, there will be many catalogs & brochures mailed to the residence or business. There's no avoiding spammers, other than going to the store & paying, and in the case of Newegg, the pick up purchase has to me made online (just like Walmart's 'Site to Store') & when ready, an email or text message will be received. 

 

The only other option is to purchase locally where the prices are sometimes double over what Internet sellers has, and forget any mail-in rebates, these has to be purchased from certain retailers for this to be effective. Being on a fixed income, I'll keep shopping as I do, using PayPal as my preferred method of payment. :)

 

Their argument of having a staff to pay & other expenses are smoke & mirrors, one doesn't order online & the items doesn't pack themselves. Example, Newegg has 5-6 warehouses across the US (am unsure of Canada), and they have the same expenses, otherwise customers wouldn't get their merchandise in 3-10 business days (depending on the shipping method the customer selected). What those B&M stores fails to say is that many of these also has an online site, so that negates their argument. All businesses (local or online) has to pay taxes, utilities, rent, insurance, the cost of employees (to include payroll tax & benefits) & whatever else called for be local & State law. Many also have a sales staff, that's why Newegg & other merchants has online chat in regards to compatibility & other questions. 

 

And like any merchant where paid online, to include PayPal, one will get some unwanted offers. It's up to the customer to discard any not wanted, and should any land in the Spam or Junk box, ensure that the party is unknown before trashing, sometimes a legit email ends in there. 

 

There are some agreement(s) with any payment service used (even at a B&M merchant), we can live with it or not. I'm going to have the things needed/desired, with PayPal being my preferred payment method. :)

 

Cat


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#11 Al1000

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 04:18 AM

Do you really believe what you're saying?

Yes.

Just picked one of their third parties and voila... Privacy Policy Medallia, Inc. (USA)

 
These terms and conditions mostly relate to people who fill out Medallia surveys, but they do say:

"Medallia does not receive, use or collect personally identifiable information, such as names, addresses, phone numbers and e-mail addresses, except under the following circumstances:

When an existing or prospective client goes to www.medallia.com to request a demonstration of a Medallia product, he or she must provide contact details including person-specific information (name, title, phone number and e-mail address) and organization-specific information (name and address). Medallia also collect some marketing contact information such as name and email address through third parties. We use these information for marketing purposes only. Medallia may also append the information collected through our website, through emails, other contact with the individuals, in order to improve our website and services.

When Medallia surveys customers on behalf of its clients, it receives customers’ personally identifiable information from its clients. Medallia enters into confidentiality and non-disclosure agreements with clients that legally obligate Medallia to protect the personally identifiable customer information it receives and use it only for the purposes specified in the contract. From time to time Medallia may collect personally identifiable information during a survey, if requested to do so by a client. This personally identifiable information will be shared with the client, and will be used as described in that survey.

Medallia may, with the written consent of its clients, ask questions of customers for whom it has received personally identifiable information, and bundle and sell those responses in an aggregate form. Before providing any survey results to third parties, responses are stripped of personally identifying or client-identifying information, aggregated, and adjusted using Medallia’s proprietary methodologies."


So it looks like Medillia carries out surveys on behalf of its client, Paypal, and that it why Paypal would share your email address with Medillia.
 

Maybe test with different email addresses and be sure? Yep, I can confirm, different spam in both email boxes!


Can you please provide some details of this test you carried out? I take it that one of these email addresses is the one you use for Paypal. Is that correct? What was it you did that resulted in receiving this spam, and how do you know it has anything to do with Paypal?
 

Your partial quote makes it a bit out of context... but hey I'm flexible! :P

Those third parties should be (like I said before) able to work with an "anonymous consumer/payment ID", but Paypal prefers to share more...


You haven't addressed the example I gave, i.e. paying funds into a bank account. I still don't see how Paypal or anyone else for that matter, would be able to pay money into a bank account, without sharing some personal information with the bank. Try this example instead: Supposing you walk into a bank to pay some money into an account. How can you do that, without identifying to the bank, the person who's account you want to pay money into? It would be impossible.
 

Here's another view on it...


Is there anything in there that you think supports your claims about these spam emails? It seems to confirm that Paypal only sells and freely shares "anonymous information," which would of course not include email addresses.
 

I think I made my point, we just have a different view on privacy!


What point would that be? You certainly haven't shown that it's even possible to receive spam emails as a result of using Paypal, never mind that it has actually happened. How do you know these spam emails you received have anything to do with Paypal? Who is the sender?

Edited by Al1000, 28 July 2016 - 04:19 AM.


#12 Al1000

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 04:27 AM

And like any merchant where paid online, to include PayPal, one will get some unwanted offers.


Indeed. I get some emails from Paypal, but I am not aware of ever having received spam emails from third parties as a result of having used Paypal, and would be very surprised if I did.

#13 Guest_GNULINUX_*

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 12:15 PM

Last attempt...  B)
 

You haven't addressed the example I gave, i.e. paying funds into a bank account. I still don't see how Paypal or anyone else for that matter, would be able to pay money into a bank account, without sharing some personal information with the bank.

I'm able to move money between two banks (online and not Paypal) with just the account numbers and an order/invoice number known to the receiving end, the order/invoice number isn't even mandatory...

Your offline example has nothing to do with this (Paypal is an online service)!
 

 

Just picked one of their third parties and voila... Privacy Policy Medallia, Inc. (USA)

 
These terms and conditions mostly (?) relate to people who fill out Medallia surveys, but they do say:

Medallia does not receive, use or collect personally identifiable information, such as names, addresses, phone numbers and e-mail addresses, except under the following circumstances:

In short: "Surveys" and "Medallia also collect some marketing contact information such as name and email address through third parties...."

So it looks like Medillia carries out surveys on behalf of its client, Paypal, and that it why Paypal would share your email address with Medillia.

 

Thanks for proving my point: Paypal shares your data with totally unrelated third parties and those third parties use it "for marketing purposes only", whatever that means...
 
And concerning spam emails: Paypal emails which point (directly or indirectly) to third parties and use tracking links are not considered spam emails?
 
Yep, I'm sure we have a different view on privacy!  :wink:

 

.



#14 Al1000

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 07:24 AM

I'm able to move money between two banks (online and not Paypal) with just the account numbers and an order/invoice number known to the receiving end, the order/invoice number isn't even mandatory...

Your offline example has nothing to do with this (Paypal is an online service)!


The principle is the same; you still need to share the account number of the account you're paying the money into with a third party, i.e. the bank.
 

Thanks for proving my point: Paypal shares your data with totally unrelated third parties and those third parties use it "for marketing purposes only", whatever that means...


Where does it say that? I am under the impression that Paypal contracts Medillia to carry out surveys of its customers. It's perfectly normal for companies to hire companies that specialise in surveys, when they want to survey their own customers, rather than try to do it in-house.
 

And concerning spam emails: Paypal emails which point (directly or indirectly) to third parties and use tracking links are not considered spam emails?


Ah, now we're on the same page. With all this talk of Paypal sharing details, I had thought you meant these emails were coming from third parties, rather than from Paypal itself. I get these now and again. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you should see something like:

"This email was sent to [my email address], because your email preferences are set to receive Partner/Third Party Promotions. Click here to Unsubscribe. "

Clicking on the unsubscribe link takes me to this page:

paypal_unsubscribe_zpsmmmc4xgv.png

There are no direct links to any third party sites anywhere in the email, either. All the links that take me to third party sites are redirects from:
https://epl.paypal-communication.com
And no, I wouldn't call it spam, on the grounds that I've subscribed to receive it. :)

Edited by Al1000, 29 July 2016 - 07:32 AM.


#15 cat1092

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 05:17 AM

 

 

 I am under the impression that Paypal contracts Medillia to carry out surveys of its customers.

 

In the 8-9 years that I've used PayPal, haven't received the first survey & I use the service quite often (at least one time per week). Many purchases also activates Google Trusted Stores protection, yet another added layer. Example, Newegg's chat session said that a certain 16GB set of Blue Ripjaws RAM (4GB x4) would be a 'drop-in' fit for my Optiplex 780 DT edition. While the modules were the most beautiful I've ever received for myself, it wasn't what the 'chat expert' described for my need & Newegg wanted me to eat a 15% restock fee plus shipping costs for their incompetence

 

Google Trusted Stores (also triggered by a PayPal made purchase) put an end to this within hours, was emailed a return mailing label on Newegg's dime & no 15% restock penalty, the cash went back into my PayPal account, then my bank account (not checking or savings, a government issued card for retirees, the disabled, as well as VA benefits). 

 

The needed modules were the 'double sided' ones, this is why my spare 2GB modules would work & the 4GB one didn't, these were single sided only. Being that I like to 'max out' system memory (there's no such thing as 'wasted' memory) I wanted it stuffed to it's max of 16GB. More RAM simply speeds up the entire system & if desired, a RAM disk can be made out of any not needed by the system. The only thing I don't like about this, is the way Microsoft 'sees' what's needed for hibernation, the customer is penalized for their choice. What many doesn't realize, is that Sleep will often accomplish the same, with as little as 200MB system memory or page file (mine's set to Samsung defaults, 200MB min, 1,024 max). Make the RAM do it's job, rather than the HDD. 

 

This is important for LInux users also, many needs no more than 1GB Swap (the same thing). 

 

Would had kept it & installed in my XPS 8700, but that would had been reducing the RAM by half, and with 7-7-7-20 timings, may not had ran as 1600MHz. Both of my notebooks with that low of timing runs at 1333MHz, where it should be for 1st gen 'i' series CPU's. 

 

Anyway, back to the protection, was glad that I was covered & if I had to go through PayPal & describe what I was told (maybe I need a screen recorder to prove these incidents :P), the outcome would had been the same, a 'significantly not as described' item. Because the system would only emit beeps with the Ripjaws, that's significantly not as described in itself. At the time I was posting in the Chat session, added a Speccy link to my specs. This also goes to show that these chat sessions may not even be real humans, rather virtual assistants that Microsoft or Google provided that's only as smart as the database input by humans. 

 

Had I been w/out these protections, at a minimum, would have had to eat the loss of return shipping plus a 15% restock fee for wrong advise. No one should have to go through this type of turmoil. What if it had been a 40-50 pound item instead? The USPS would eat one alive for return shipping.

 

I'll happily deal with 3rd party emails for the protection received, as long as none of these jeopardizes my security in doing so. :)

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 





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