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I know God is on our side, but who is on the side of God?


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#1 Naught McNoone

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Posted 15 July 2016 - 09:04 AM

I have read a lot of posts, articles, prayer books, &c., that all offer comfort and encouragement to our Servicemen and Servicewomen.

 

Almost all of them seem to be a plea to God to help "Smite Thyne Enemies!" and protect me from "The forces of evil!"

 

Throughout history, millions of people have been slain "In the name of God."

Somehow, I don't think that this is what Jesus of Nazareth had in mind, when he began to teach us.

 

50 years ago, I was taught a most simple Soldier's Prayer.

 

"O Lord, Thou knowest how busy I must be this day. If I forget Thee, do not forget me."

Jacob Astley,

The Battle of Edgehill, Sunday, 23 October 1642

 

Not a plea for victory or protection, or even death to the enemy.  Just a request for Remembrance.

Perhaps this is a more appropriate prayer in this day and age, given the world circumstance.

 

Comments, anyone?

 

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#2 georgehenry

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Posted 23 July 2016 - 01:45 PM

More appropriate, in this day and age, would be. May I have the luck to stay away from all these religious nuts.



#3 Naught McNoone

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 09:41 AM

 
georgehenry, on 23 Jul 2016 - 2:45 PM, said:
More appropriate, in this day and age . . . stay away from all these religious nuts.
 
 
One of the things that I see as a flaw in our world, is that after thousands of years, some of us still use religion to justify violence.
 
There are billions of Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hebrews, &c. who are practising their religion without any sort of conflict.  
 
Yet there are a relatively small number of fanatics who are bent on enforcing their "one true belief" on the rest of the world.
 
I does not matter if it's a Jihad or a Crusade.  Forcing your religion on someone through violence, is not conversion.  It is criminal.
 
Tuppence,
 
Naught


#4 JohnnyJammer

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 06:37 PM

Well there is much i could say but the title for starters "I know God is on our side" to me is just false and starts arguments etc and even wars. Not being rude but you instantly say that god is looking out for us when many question the fact that does god exist.

 

God has never and will never be on my side and never has before through some extremely hard times in my life when i was homeless sleeping in freezing weather hungry being beaten by cops because i was homeless and many other things i wont mention here.

The real issue is people using religion to push their own beliefs and use a book as evidence to justify.

From all the way over the pond here in Australia, a lot of us just laugh at the crazyness we see on TV from the full hard core religious folks down in the deep south who keep claiming baby jesus will save them from mass shootings and the like. I also hear preachers say that America was a "Christian nation in the beginning and will always be a Christian nation" when it was over run by british settlers and invaded and slaughters the natives to that area and i can garuntee them natives were not Christians.

 

It has been proven that if you ready the same exact book over and over a hundred times you will believe anything that the book has to say. Surround your self with like minded people and you have a possy of people who refuse to accept any other argument because it doesnt coincide with the book they have read hundreds of times.

Look at images and videos of Muslim extremists nodding back and forward all day reading religious teachings being brain washed and forced to submit to something none of them have ever met.

 

The day God or Jesus or what ever comes to earth and says "Thats it stop killing each other in my name" will be the day i become a believer, until that day comes and thousands of women and humans keep dying with no Godly intervention then i sorry i cannot believe something so great would allow something so horrible to happen.

 

This isnt an attack on you at all Naught but with all the crap i see on TV and with the, sorry to say  "Crazy as bat s**t religious people" claiming the end is coming (Remember the year 2000, the second coming of Jesus) i just shake my head thinking some of these people are actually mentally ill and need help.


Edited by JohnnyJammer, 25 July 2016 - 06:39 PM.


#5 Crazy Cat

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 07:37 PM

NOT ALL TERRORISM IS RELIGIOUS.

Irish Republican Army. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

Red Brigades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Brigades
Informal Anarchist Federation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_Anarchist_Federation
 

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#6 Al1000

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 09:20 AM

I don't think anyone is claiming that all terrorism is religious, Crazy Cat, although terrorism in Northern Ireland is generally perpetrated by Protestants against Catholics, and by Catholics against Protestants.

 

In response to Naught:

"One of the things that I see as a flaw in our world, is that after thousands of years, some of us still use religion to justify violence."

 

I think that religion is used a lot of the time as something to both unite, and divide people. It's no secret that the British sought to "divide and conquer" populations around the world. It's said that the UK was incapable of ruling India due to its size, so we "managed conflicts" instead - which seems not unlike what we are all doing in the middle east today. One noticeable result of the UK colonising India, is Pakistan, whereas beforehand Muslims and Hindus seemed to be able to live in the one country together

 

Islam in particular does have an inbuilt nationalist element, and so would seem to be particularly apt for colonised people to rally around when they attempt to throw off their oppressors.


Edited by Al1000, 26 July 2016 - 09:21 AM.


#7 Naught McNoone

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:15 AM

JohnnyJammer, Yesterday, 07:39 PM
 
. . . "I know God is on our side" . . . false and starts arguments . . . you instantly say that god is looking out for us. . . fact that does god exist.
 
God . . . will never be on my side . . .through some extremely hard times in my life . . . 
 
. . . using religion to push their own beliefs and use a book as evidence to justify.
 
. . . here in Australia. . . we see on TV . . . full hard core religious folks down in the deep south . . . America was a "Christian nation in the beginning and will always be a Christian nation" . . . over run by british settlers and invaded and slaughters the natives . . . natives were not Christians.
 
. . . if you ready (sic) the same exact book over and over . . . you will believe anything that the book has to say . . . Surround your self with like minded people . . . who refuse to accept any other argument . . .
 
. . . extremists . . . forced to submit to something none of them have ever met.
 
The day . . . Jesus . . . comes to earth and says ". . . stop killing each other in my name" . . .  i cannot believe something so great would allow something so horrible . . .
 
. . . isnt an attack on you . . . but with all the crap i see . . . i just shake my head thinking some of these people are actually mentally ill and need help.
 
 
 
Johnny,
 
Do not apologise to me for the content of your post.  This is a free and open discussion.
 
I do, however get the impression that you have a lot of pent up frustration.  Venting is one of the best things for that.  It helps to express it, rather than keep it all inside.  
 
Please accept my regrets at the hardships you have suffered in the past, and I hope that your life has improved.  One of the things I was taught, as a young boy, was that every human being deserves enough to eat, a warm bed at night, and a safe place to live.
 
After reading your post, my first reaction was to post counter arguments to many of your statements.  Then I read it again, and slowly changed my mind.  Allow me instead to propose three statements that we can all discuss, based on your post.
 
 
 
The full title of the thread is "I know God is on our side, but who is on the side of God?"  It is a statement, followed by a question.  Nothing more.  To only quote part of it, takes it out of context.  I read so many things in the news that are partial snips, taken out of context, and used to incite or twist the facts for the reader.
 
The United States of America is a country that was founded by slave holders.  (They fought a very bitter civil war, that eventually ended, mostly, slavery in the then 36 States.)  To be a slaver, and call yourself Christian, goes against any of the teachings that Jesus gave.  Jesus's main message was one of Pacifism, something conveniently ignored by most extremist "Christians."
 
I agree, somewhat, about "the book" thing.  Whether it is the Tanakh, the Bible, or the Koran.  Don't burn the book, because the interpreter chooses to twist the message.  I read Mein Kampf three times, as part of a Political Science course, and it didn't turn me into a Nazi.  (Did you know that the English version of Mein Kampf, published in the US in 1933 was abridged, and excluded most of Hitlers rants?)
 
Cheers!
 
Naught


#8 Naught McNoone

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:36 AM

Al1000 Posted Today, 10:20 AM

 

. . . perpetrated by Protestants against Catholics, and by Catholics against Protestants . . .

 

 

You bring up a very good point.  In fact, sectarian wars within different religions tend to be more violent than those between nations.

 

Britain has has her share.  Look at the mess that Henry left, as an example.  

Catholics vs Protestants in European history has always resulted in atrocities committed on both sides.  

The Inquisition was designed to control heresy amongst the Spanish Catholics, not to persecute Jews and Muslims.  

Sunni vs Shia has become a focus of violence in the Middle East.

 
Cheers!
 
Naught


#9 MadmanRB

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 12:59 PM

I will have to admit that are kind of the same boat as JohnnyJammer after all if there was one true god and one true religion there would not be so many sects of religion.

God has yet to magically appear for me either and if these are indeed the end times Jesus is running very late.

But I try to not to be the typical "angry at god atheist" people think atheists are.


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#10 Naught McNoone

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 01:39 PM

 
MadmanRB, on 26 Jul 2016 - 1:59 PM, said:
 
. . . I try to not to be the typical "angry at god atheist" . . . 
 
Interesting that you should say that.  How can someone be angry at something that they don't believe exists?
 
The traditional definition of atheism is that there is no God.  Yet I have met atheists who state that they simply don't believe in religion, or define "god" in a non traditional way.  To my mind, they are "A religious" and not true atheists.
 
I have found groups of atheists who seem to have organised themselves, into a community.  Does that now make them a religion?
 
 
What is the difference in "disbelief", "denial", and "lack of belief"?  To me, they are all the same thing.
 
The traditional Christian view was to lump them in with pagans and satanists.  But if you don't believe in ANY god, then you can't be either!
 
 
Cheers!
 
Naught


#11 MadmanRB

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 01:43 PM

Well there is this odd thing that occurs sometimes when you come out as an atheist and that is the question "are you angry at god?"

Well no cant be mad at something I dont think exists.

Usually that stereotype actually more falls with agnostics not atheists


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#12 georgehenry

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 04:40 PM

Why is it that when, in reply to a question, I don't broach the subject myself, I say I am an atheist, Religious people almost always try to convert me. I never try to take someones belief away from them, even 'though I think it is all twaddle.


Edited by georgehenry, 26 July 2016 - 04:42 PM.


#13 Al1000

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 06:00 PM

"I have found groups of atheists who seem to have organised themselves, into a community.  Does that now make them a religion?"

 

That is a strange phenomenon. I was surprised when I first heard of this.

 

Strictly speaking I don't think that makes it a religion, as what they have in common is a lack of belief in a god or gods, whereas people that follow a religion have a belief in a god or gods.

 

"Why is it that when, in reply to a question, I don't broach the subject myself, I say I am an atheist, Religious people almost always try to convert me."

 

Obviously no-one can speak for anyone else, but one possibility is compassion. If a religious person believes that only members of their religion go to heaven/paradise/Valhalla etc, and everyone else goes to hell, it would only be natural that they would want you to adhere to their religion too.



#14 JohnnyJammer

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 06:43 PM

Yes well its not anger that i have the real issue is im just sick of these extremists killing people for no other reason than we are infidels.

Look again this morning in france, 2 blokes walk into a church and slit the throat of a priest who has been gods representative all his life and yet no super power / god or being stooped this from happening.

Allah never stopped it happening and either did God, jesus, and all the other gods.

That and that alone is why i just cannot understand why people in this day and age still choose to religion as a safe haven as if praying is ever going to stop some person witha  gun against your head so i ask why bother praying.

 

I got a mate whos parents where really religious Christians and were always good people of the community, never did anything wrong and you couldn't ask for a nicer mum.

It wasn't until his mum got cancer that they then questioned gods will, why did she get cancer when all she has done is help people?

 

long story short they stopped going to church and then the church folk started to get real nasty against these people asking for money, kept ringing them asking why they dont come any more and even threatened them.

For people like my self, we see religion as a bank in a sort of way, its all about power at any cost and the all mighty $.

 

Either way its no skin of my nose but when people start killing innocent every day people going about their business that is what annoys me whether it be dropping bombs from USA air craft to people blowing them selves up.

America has killed more innocent people dropping bombs than all terrorists acts in the last 20 years but they are never accountable!



#15 Crazy Cat

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 09:35 PM

@ Al1000: I don't think anyone is claiming that all terrorism is religious, Crazy Cat, although terrorism in Northern Ireland is generally perpetrated by Protestants against Catholics, and by Catholics against Protestants.

I disagree. While there was some sectarianism violence, it was political and unionism.

The IRA publicly condemned sectarianism and sectarian attacks.[131] However, some IRA members were involved in sectarian tit-for-tat violence.[131] Of those killed by the IRA, Sutton classifies 130 (about 7%) of them as sectarian killings of Protestants.[132] Unlike loyalists, the IRA denied responsibility for sectarian attacks and the members involved used covernames, such as "Republican Action Force".[133][134] They claimed that their attacks on Protestants were "retaliation" for attacks on Catholics.[131] Many in the IRA opposed these sectarian attacks, but others deemed them effective in preventing sectarian attacks on Catholics.[135] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army#Sectarian_attacks

By the 1960s, after the failed border campaign, Sinn Féin moved towards a Marxist class struggle outlook. With the outbreak of the Troubles Sinn Féin, or as it came to be called after the formation of the Provisional IRA and Provisional Sinn Féin, Official IRA / Official Sinn Féin found itself sidelined because of its decision not to engage the British state militarily. Over time the Official IRA faded away, while Official Sinn Féin moved to a purely Marxist position, renaming itself first Sinn Féin the Workers Party, and then in 1982 the The Workers' Party. Genealogy of the IRA and its splits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

The Political Motivations of Terrorism. https://www.apus.edu/content/dam/online-library/student-papers/Hamlin_%20LC514-2006.pdf

Terrorism Learning and Innovation: Lessons from PIRA in Northern Ireland. https://www.fhs.se/Documents/Externwebben/forskning/centrumbildningar/CATS/publikationer/Terrorism%20Learning%20and%20Innovation%20-%20Lessons%20from%20PIRA%20in%20Northern%20Ireland.pdf

 

Religion has come from ONE POINT OF ORIGIN: the Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i Faith, all believe in the Archangel Gabriel, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel

According to some Islamic scholars, the rock is the spot[22] from which the Islamic prophet Muhammad ascended to Heaven accompanied by the angel Gabriel. Further, Muhammad was taken here by Gabriel to pray with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.[23] Other Islamic scholars believe that the Prophet ascended to Heaven from the Al-Aqsa Mosque.[24][25] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock#Religious_significance


Three temple's residing at Temple Mount. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

First Temple, Solomon's Temple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem#First_Temple
Second Temple, Jewish Holy Temple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem#Second_Temple
Third Temple, Dome of the Rock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

Edited by Crazy Cat, 26 July 2016 - 09:43 PM.

 

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