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Motherboard enquiry


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#1 Pugglerock

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Posted 15 July 2016 - 04:21 AM

Hello,

 

I have a work PC currently sitting on my desk. I'm not very good with hardware, software is my specialty. The tower block is a HP Pro and that's all I can tell you as I can't get anything on the screens. That is my problem.

 

I have tried with different monitors, different cables and both the VGA and DVI slot and I do not get any signal when I turn the machine on. On one hand, I think it's the motherboard on the other I think it may just be the slots as the worker who uses this PC said they had trouble with the screen sometimes and now it just doesn't work at all.

 

As far as I know the machine boots fine, but without any signal on the screens I can't tell.

 

My question is how can I determine its the motherboard or just the slots? There is a PCI-E X16 slot so I can get a cheap video card and stick it in for the ports and hope it works.

 

I heard of Breadboarding the board, would this be something worth doing or because I can't get any signal on the screen it wouldn't be worth it?


Edited by hamluis, 15 July 2016 - 11:12 AM.


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#2 smax013

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Posted 15 July 2016 - 03:06 PM

Does it have integrated video or a dedicated graphics card (i.e. a video card sitting in one of the PCI slots)?

If it only has integrated video, then it might be worth trying a dedicated video card either that you buy (presumably a cheap one, but if it is not powerful enough for regular use and it works, then it is a waste as you would want to buy one that is powerful enough for regular use) or borrow. If the dedicated video card works, then it seems that just the integrated video on the mobo died. If the dedicated video card does not work, then it is more likely that it is some sort of motherboard issue.

If it is using a dedicated video card, then the logical thing to try would be a different dedicated video card. The exception would be if there is integrated video, then try taking the dedicated card out and the boot up with monitor connected to the integrated video port. If a new dedicated video card or integrated video (if available) does not work, then it is more likely the mobo is the issue.

#3 Pugglerock

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Posted 18 July 2016 - 07:45 AM

The graphics are integrated. I've put across to the finance manager about getting a cheap graphics card so I can test this theory out and hope it works. I'm hoping it is just that as the machine is only a few years old and recently passed it's PAT testing.

 

As soon as I have an update I'll let you know how that goes (although it may be a while as we've hit a busy point in time in the company.)

 

Cheers for the input!



#4 Pugglerock

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 09:56 AM

Okay so, I have found a graphic card I would like to get for this machine to test it, GeForce 210 Nvidia Graphics Card. It runs completely off the PCI-E slot luckily so no extra PSU's great!

 

My question is will it be compatible with the mother board or because it runs off the PCI-E slot it doesn't really matter? It hopefully is compatible with the processor which is an Intel Pentium processor, unfortunately I can't see what type. 

 

The machine is a pre-build, it's a HP Pro 3500 Series MT if that helps...



#5 vcolev

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 10:04 AM

Mother board should have the model number on it. from there, do a search on that model number to see compatible CPU and graphics cards.


Edited by vcolev, 21 July 2016 - 10:04 AM.


#6 smax013

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 10:04 AM

Okay so, I have found a graphic card I would like to get for this machine to test it, GeForce 210 Nvidia Graphics Card. It runs completely off the PCI-E slot luckily so no extra PSU's great!
 
My question is will it be compatible with the mother board or because it runs off the PCI-E slot it doesn't really matter? It hopefully is compatible with the processor which is an Intel Pentium processor, unfortunately I can't see what type. 
 
The machine is a pre-build, it's a HP Pro 3500 Series MT if that helps...


Should be fine. Generally any graphics card will be compatible with any processor and any motherboard (as long as it has the right kind of slot for the graphics card).

Generally, the only thing to worry about is whether or not your PSU is power enough to handle the graphics card. What is listed at the minimum power supply rating for the graphics card? FWIW, the generic GeForce 210 lists a 300W minimum power supply (http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-210/specifications), but different brands might be slightly different if they "tweaked" the "stock" card.

#7 Drillingmachine

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 01:09 PM

Older HP machines have problems with PCI Express 3.0 cards because no support for UEFI BIOS. Luckily GT210 is PCI Express 2.0, so there should be no problems.

 

Power supply wattage recommendations from video card manufacturer's sites can be discarded every time. This case is no exception:
 
 
Maximum Graphics Card Power (W) 30.5 W
Minimum System Power Requirement (W) 300 W
 
So if GPU takes 30W, then rest of the system must take at least 270W so that 300W PSU is really minimum requirement :lmao: They basically calculate PSU minimum requirement something like that: Minimum PSU = 250W + graphic card maximum W + 100W (if mid end card) + 100W more (if high end card).

 

I checked that some HP Pro 3500 Series MT series machines are equipped with more hungry GPU's than GT 210 so there should be no problems with PSU either.


Edited by hamluis, 21 July 2016 - 04:55 PM.


#8 smax013

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 02:26 PM

 

 
Older HP machines have problems with PCI Express 3.0 cards because no support for UEFI BIOS. Luckily GT210 is PCI Express 2.0, so there should be no problems.

 


Which is why I said "generally" and that the mobo has the right kind of slot for the card (i.e. ideally if the card is PCIe 2.0 then the mobo has a PCIe 2.0 slot for full compatibility...although technically PCIe version are generally supposed to be forward and backward compatible, but might lose some bandwidth if they don't match).   :grinner: 
 
 

Power supply wattage recommendations from video card manufacturer's sites can be discarded every time.


I would be careful with that approach. Which it might be true some times, I doubt it is true every time.

 

This case is no exception:
 


 
 

Maximum Graphics Card Power (W) 30.5 W


Minimum System Power Requirement (W) 300 W


 
So if GPU takes 30W, then rest of the system must take at least 270W so that 300W PSU is really minimum requirement :lmao: They basically calculate PSU minimum requirement something like that: Minimum PSU = 250W + graphic card maximum W + 100W (if mid end card) + 100W more (if high end card).



 
I checked that some HP Pro 3500 Series MT series machines are equipped with more hungry GPU's than GT 210 so there should be no problems with PSU either.

 


Keep in mind that maximum rated power of a PSU is not really a straight forward thing. Without going into specifics (i.e. effects of power to different voltage rails, peak wattage vs. sustained wattage, wattage output at different temperatures, etc), you generally don't want to run your computer at the "max watt rating" of a PSU. This is why the minimum PSU recommendation seems inflated.


Edited by hamluis, 21 July 2016 - 04:58 PM.


#9 Drillingmachine

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 04:26 PM

Which is why I said "generally" and that the mobo has the right kind of slot for the card (i.e. ideally if the card is PCIe 2.0 then the mobo has a PCIe 2.0 slot for full compatibility...although technically PCIe version are generally supposed to be forward and backward compatible, but might lose some bandwidth if they don't match).   :grinner:


Yeah, I just have to constantly remind myself about this PCI Express 3.0 no UEFI trap. Fell into it myself once. Stupid that PCI Express compatibility isn't even theoretically 100% in that case :(
 

I would be careful with that approach. Which it might be true some times, I doubt it is true every time.


You already said why they can be discarded every time. Take account power on different rails, PSU quality, multiple +12V rails and things you said (effects of power to different voltage rails, peak wattage vs. sustained wattage, wattage output at different temperatures, etc). What does PSU total wattage tell about those? Basically nothing. That's the problem. Manufacturers try to tell something they have absolutely no chance to tell correctly.

I have never seen any use for video card manufacturer's "recommendation" about PSU wattage. And I have been around PC tech quite many years.
 

Keep in mind that maximum rated power of a PSU is not really a straight forward thing. Without going into specifics (i.e. effects of power to different voltage rails, peak wattage vs. sustained wattage, wattage output at different temperatures, etc), you generally don't want to run your computer at the "max watt rating" of a PSU. This is why the minimum PSU recommendation seems inflated.


Exactly, those recommendations are hugely inflated and that's why I always laugh at them. I used similar graphic card (30 watts or so) with 90W PSU. No problems. Maybe I did something wrong as "requirement" was 300W...

Problem is that some people really see those minimum PSU wattage as real requirement. Luckily you seem to know well enough they are inflated :)

Edited by Drillingmachine, 21 July 2016 - 04:27 PM.


#10 Pugglerock

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 08:22 AM

 


Should be fine. Generally any graphics card will be compatible with any processor and any motherboard (as long as it has the right kind of slot for the graphics card).

Generally, the only thing to worry about is whether or not your PSU is power enough to handle the graphics card. What is listed at the minimum power supply rating for the graphics card? FWIW, the generic GeForce 210 lists a 300W minimum power supply (http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-210/specifications), but different brands might be slightly different if they "tweaked" the "stock" card.

 

 

Okay so the power supply says Max 300W at 35C, Max 260W at 50C, which one should I be looking at?

 

 

Mother board should have the model number on it. from there, do a search on that model number to see compatible CPU and graphics cards.

 

The model number I assume may be on a white sticker? That's the only thing I can see on this regarding any sort of number. 



#11 smax013

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 08:46 AM

Should be fine. Generally any graphics card will be compatible with any processor and any motherboard (as long as it has the right kind of slot for the graphics card).

Generally, the only thing to worry about is whether or not your PSU is power enough to handle the graphics card. What is listed at the minimum power supply rating for the graphics card? FWIW, the generic GeForce 210 lists a 300W minimum power supply (http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-210/specifications), but different brands might be slightly different if they "tweaked" the "stock" card.

 
Okay so the power supply says Max 300W at 35C, Max 260W at 50C, which one should I be looking at?


260W at 50C is the better choice IMHO. Odds are the temperature inside the case, where the power supply is located, is going to be at least 95 deg F (aka 35 deg C), but potentially higher, especially if the CPU and/or GPU are being taxed.

Edited by smax013, 22 July 2016 - 08:57 AM.


#12 smax013

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 08:56 AM

I would be careful with that approach. Which it might be true some times, I doubt it is true every time.


You already said why they can be discarded every time. Take account power on different rails, PSU quality, multiple +12V rails and things you said (effects of power to different voltage rails, peak wattage vs. sustained wattage, wattage output at different temperatures, etc). What does PSU total wattage tell about those? Basically nothing. That's the problem. Manufacturers try to tell something they have absolutely no chance to tell correctly.

I have never seen any use for video card manufacturer's "recommendation" about PSU wattage. And I have been around PC tech quite many years.
 

Keep in mind that maximum rated power of a PSU is not really a straight forward thing. Without going into specifics (i.e. effects of power to different voltage rails, peak wattage vs. sustained wattage, wattage output at different temperatures, etc), you generally don't want to run your computer at the "max watt rating" of a PSU. This is why the minimum PSU recommendation seems inflated.


Exactly, those recommendations are hugely inflated and that's why I always laugh at them. I used similar graphic card (30 watts or so) with 90W PSU. No problems. Maybe I did something wrong as "requirement" was 300W...

Problem is that some people really see those minimum PSU wattage as real requirement. Luckily you seem to know well enough they are inflated :)


What if you have a power supply that only states its max wattage output is say 150W, but gives no details. You figure you only really need 120W or so for your actual use. So, you ignore the 300W minimum requirement. But then it turns out that the 150W is at 25 deg C, is only peak wattage that cannot be sustained for more than a couple seconds, and is of an older design that sends more power to the 3.3V and 5V rails. As a result, when the power supply is at a more realistic temperature than 25 deg C and need more sent to the 12V rails for the CPU and GPU, then you might have problems. That PSU at a more realistic temperature at the constant maximum wattage draw might not be able to provide the 120W that you need.

The point is that without those details, then maybe you end up cutting it too close and run into problems. That is why there is inflation of the wattage requirement, especially for manufactured computers as they typically don't provide a lot of details on their PSUs. Of course, if the PSU states a max wattage output for a realistic temperature, is of a more modern design that dumps more to the 12V rails, and is specific in stating that is it not a "peak" wattage, then you don't really need as much "padding" (unless you want room for future upgrades).

#13 Pugglerock

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 09:02 AM

 

260W at 50C. Odds are the temperature inside the case, where the power supply is located, is not going to be at about 95 deg F (aka 35 deg C).

 

Mhm, that graphics card may be a no then...that's not an issue just means more searching!

 

I have also now found the model number for the motherboard. It's a AOS-C motherboard, 696234-001.

 

If it's the motherboard that is gone I can either put forward a totally new motherboard and work that way (One I'm looking at is a H110M-S2PV) because I know (at least I think I know) it'll take the processor that's already in the machine. Considering I work for a charity I'm trying to get good cheap options. Looking for the original HP motherboard is proving to be a bit of a pain and everything I find is in the states; I live in the UK and ideally we want to source from the UK.

 

So my next question is! (I'm so sorry I'm very new to hardware I only ever deal with software that is where my expert thing is.) When I removed the cooling fan over the processor to see if I can find out what type of Pentium processor it is; there was glue like substance on this; I'm assuming this is thermal paste? Will I need thermal paste to re-stick things if it's the motherboard that needs replacing? 


Edited by Pugglerock, 22 July 2016 - 09:03 AM.


#14 smax013

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 09:10 AM

So my next question is! (I'm so sorry I'm very new to hardware I only ever deal with software that is where my expert thing is.) When I removed the cooling fan over the processor to see if I can find out what type of Pentium processor it is; there was glue like substance on this; I'm assuming this is thermal paste? Will I need thermal paste to re-stick things if it's the motherboard that needs replacing?


You will want to clean off the old thermal paste and then apply new thermal past when you put everything back together.

For cleaning off the old thermal paste, you can use something like ArctiClean.  You should be able to find it in the UK, I would assume.  And then you could use Arctic Silver 5 for the new paste. I am sure there are other options, but that is what I am used to using.

#15 Pugglerock

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Posted 22 July 2016 - 09:26 AM

Mhm thought as much!

 

Okay I'll have a look round some more for a graphics card that hopefully doesn't go over 260w and see where to go from there.

 

You guys are being an absolute blessing though thank you so much!


Edited by hamluis, 22 July 2016 - 09:36 AM.





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