Jump to content


 


Register a free account to unlock additional features at BleepingComputer.com
Welcome to BleepingComputer, a free community where people like yourself come together to discuss and learn how to use their computers. Using the site is easy and fun. As a guest, you can browse and view the various discussions in the forums, but can not create a new topic or reply to an existing one unless you are logged in. Other benefits of registering an account are subscribing to topics and forums, creating a blog, and having no ads shown anywhere on the site.


Click here to Register a free account now! or read our Welcome Guide to learn how to use this site.

Photo

Windows 10: Microsoft fears borkage from auto updates and 1,000 users agree


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 JohnC_21

JohnC_21

  • Members
  • 23,199 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 08:36 AM

MICROSOFT APPEARS to have released some more borked updates for Windows 10, as the question of whether the background automatic updates introduced in Redmond's bouncing baby are a good idea or not.

The two updates - KB3147481 and KB3147458 - have become such a problem that the usually coy Microsoft has opened a thread asking people for comment, explaining that the company is interested in hearing if anyone is having problems. Yes, you read that right.

The vast majority of the 978 responses at the time of publishing this article seemed to agree on the problems. These include infinite boot loops, errors with Windows Explorer and the Start Menu (they've always had it in for that ruddy Start Menu), apps not working and the usual BSODs and repetitive error messages.

 

Article



BC AdBot (Login to Remove)

 


#2 Aura

Aura

    Bleepin' Special Ops


  • Malware Response Team
  • 19,586 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 08:55 AM

So weird how I never encountered a single problem like that since I started using Windows...

unite_blue.png
Security Administrator | Sysnative Windows Update Senior Analyst | Malware Hunter | @SecurityAura
My timezone UTC-05:00 (East. Coast). If I didn't reply to you within 48 hours, please send me a PM.


#3 JohnC_21

JohnC_21
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 23,199 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 08:58 AM

Just too many variations of hardware and software for Microsoft to keep track of.



#4 Aura

Aura

    Bleepin' Special Ops


  • Malware Response Team
  • 19,586 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:00 AM

If that's it, they could add additional questions in their Windows 10 feedback like: "After installing KB?, did you experience any issues? If yes, select which one from the drop down list below". Once the user select an answer and sends it, the hardware specs could be sent as well via telemetry, and maybe Microsoft could pinpoint specific software/hardware configuration that could cause these crashes.

unite_blue.png
Security Administrator | Sysnative Windows Update Senior Analyst | Malware Hunter | @SecurityAura
My timezone UTC-05:00 (East. Coast). If I didn't reply to you within 48 hours, please send me a PM.


#5 JohnC_21

JohnC_21
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 23,199 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:04 AM

If that's it, they could add additional questions in their Windows 10 feedback like: "After installing KB?, did you experience any issues? If yes, select which one from the drop down list below". Once the user select an answer and sends it, the hardware specs could be sent as well via telemetry, and maybe Microsoft could pinpoint specific software/hardware configuration that could cause these crashes.

That's a good idea. I would think the telemetry that is built into Windows 10 would also help.



#6 Aura

Aura

    Bleepin' Special Ops


  • Malware Response Team
  • 19,586 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:14 AM

Yup. Even though they collect telemetry data from almost every Windows 10 computers, it's hard to pinpoint which ones have an issue with a KB and which one don't, because it's not something they can guess from the data that is being sent back. Unless they gather all the results, and filter them using specific filters like: high number of BSOD, high number of X.exe crash, etc. and try to associate these results in a timeframe where a faulty KB could have been installed (and also verify if that KB have been installed or not on the system via the data they collected).

Personally, I don't have anything against that kind of telemetry because it can be used to troubleshoot issues and improve Windows (which everyone wants). It's hard to see what's wrong with a KB when you're in a situation where thousands of users have issues with KB X, but you don't know anything about their system, hardware, etc.

unite_blue.png
Security Administrator | Sysnative Windows Update Senior Analyst | Malware Hunter | @SecurityAura
My timezone UTC-05:00 (East. Coast). If I didn't reply to you within 48 hours, please send me a PM.


#7 britechguy

britechguy

    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt


  • Moderator
  • 7,471 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Staunton, VA
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:29 AM

I don't understand why anyone has even the slightest problem with ultra-heavy-duty telemetry that's related to actual system health (which would include crashes) that takes a thorough hardware snapshot as part of it.   What on earth could be considered private/personally-identifiable about your hardware configuration?  I'm sure someone will be offended by the idea that Microsoft knows that thus-and-such a malfunction occurred on a system with exact configuration X without having any idea who, personally, owns the system with exact configuration X.


Brian AKA Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

 

     In a modern society where everyone thinks their opinion deserves to be heard nothing annoys me more than individuals who mistake their personal preferences for fact.

         ~ Commenter TheCruyffGurn on the The Guardian website, 8/13/2014

 

              

 


#8 Aura

Aura

    Bleepin' Special Ops


  • Malware Response Team
  • 19,586 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:47 AM

I'm sure someone will be offended by the idea that Microsoft knows that thus-and-such a malfunction occurred on a system with exact configuration X without having any idea who, personally, owns the system with exact configuration X.


And that's the important part. It's been said many, many times already that Microsoft cannot associate a user with a system with the telemetry data it collects.

unite_blue.png
Security Administrator | Sysnative Windows Update Senior Analyst | Malware Hunter | @SecurityAura
My timezone UTC-05:00 (East. Coast). If I didn't reply to you within 48 hours, please send me a PM.


#9 Guest_GNULINUX_*

Guest_GNULINUX_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 25 April 2016 - 09:57 AM

Aura  :hug: britechguy,

I think you should start something together, not sure what exactly but...  :lol:

 

Greets!



#10 Foldingchair

Foldingchair

  • Members
  • 109 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2016 - 11:09 AM

Good to see Aura and Britech are among the users with common sense and realistic thinking. Some people really need to fold more tinfoil hats to compensate for their conspiracy theories. There's a big difference between transparency and just plain spying. As for updates, I honestly haven't had any major issues. Windows Explorer crashed on me once, and the start menu got stuck once, but that's about it. I tend to click too often in a too small time span. :whistle:

 

I can't honestly say I really like forced automatic updates. Most of the time it works just fine, and it's a breeze not having to worry about them, but obviously there will be a borked update here and there that just breaks more than it fixes, in which case I'd like to see and decide for myself what to do. An on/off switch for auto updates would be nice. :)


"Peace and blessings be upon you all."


#11 britechguy

britechguy

    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt


  • Moderator
  • 7,471 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Staunton, VA
  • Local time:03:18 AM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 11:43 AM

Foldingchair writes, "An on/off switch for auto updates would be nice."

 

Not that I don't agree for myself, and any number of sophisticated users who can make some sort of reasonable informed decision, but this does not characterize the vast majority of computer users regardless of the OS involved.

 

The "on/off" switch for auto updates was available for years and was a spectacular failure because so many people thought "they knew better" and did insane things like turning off all updates or buying into the Conspiracy Theory of Automatic Updates on Windows®.   As a freelance computer tech I've had plenty of opportunities to either clean up after smoldering cyber-heaps that were the direct, or very close indirect, result of failing to assiduously apply updates that were absolutely essential after having turned them off.

 

Microsoft, as caretaker of the OS, has made a business decision that OS consistency, without user intervention, takes a higher priority than user control over OS updates.  That's their choice to make:  they own the OS.   All OS developers do this.  The options remain the same:  stick with what you have, change over to something else, but always deal with the fact that OS updates are going to be a fact of life and are far, far, far more often a good thing than bad.  I have never experienced a Windows update that literally makes a system unusable.  I know of very few people (or organizations) that have, and I've been a Windows user almost since the day it hit the market.  I had one update during the early months of Windows 10 that clearly caused instability and the patch for that was done as an "emergency patch" (or a revision to the update itself, and reapplied) within a very short period of time.  The telemetry features exist to allow this very thing to happen, and to allow the halt of roll-out of what gets recognized as "a bad update."

 

The level of perfection that certain quarters seem to think that Microsoft should be able to achieve has never been achieved by any technology company.  I've worked on hardware from true mainframes on down, and "update issues" do occasionally occur on all OSes on all platforms.   Recognizing that essential fact appears to make me a Microsoft fan-boy in some people's eyes rather than being someone simply commenting on the obvious to anyone who's "been there, done that" for a couple of decades.

 

P.S.:  The fact that "1000 users agree" when the user base is now in the millions upon millions is, well, not compelling as an argument against automatic updates


Edited by britechguy, 25 April 2016 - 11:47 AM.

Brian AKA Bri the Tech Guy (website in my user profile) - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 

 

     In a modern society where everyone thinks their opinion deserves to be heard nothing annoys me more than individuals who mistake their personal preferences for fact.

         ~ Commenter TheCruyffGurn on the The Guardian website, 8/13/2014

 

              

 


#12 rp88

rp88

  • Members
  • 2,980 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Local time:10:18 PM

Posted 25 April 2016 - 03:16 PM

Does anyone know what the two updates mentioned here were actually for? Judging by what I've seen in the past updates that genuinely matter are usually bug free, things like security fixes. Updates which carry bugs like this are often updates without much real importance but which are marked as important because they do things like reset currency or timezones for certain countries.
Back on this site, for a while anyway, been so busy the last year.

My systems:2 laptops, intel i3 processors, windows 8.1 installed on the hard-drive and linux mint 17.3 MATE installed to USB

#13 Guest_hollowface_*

Guest_hollowface_*

  • Guests
  • OFFLINE
  •  

Posted 26 April 2016 - 01:17 AM

The two updates - KB3147481 and KB3147458 - have become such a problem that

-REF:http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2455913/windows-10-microsoft-fears-borkage-from-auto-updates-and-1-000-users-agree

It's KB3147461, not KB3147481 (which doesn't exist).

I took a quick glance at the original thread and it seems like some of those complaints are just Windows 10 complaints, and aren't actually specific to problems caused by these updates.

Microsoft, as caretaker of the OS, has made a business decision that OS consistency, without user intervention, takes a higher priority than user control over OS updates.  That's their choice to make:  they own the OS.
-REF:http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/612171/windows-10-microsoft-fears-borkage-from-auto-updates-and-1000-users-agree/#entry3986684

Well put.

@rp88

Does anyone know what the two updates mentioned here were actually for?
-REF:http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/612171/windows-10-microsoft-fears-borkage-from-auto-updates-and-1000-users-agree/#entry3986840

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3147461
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3147458

 




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users