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Upgrading brand new Windows 7 computer


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#1 saluqi

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 12:06 AM

I've just set up a brand new Dell XPS 8700 desktop.  All uneventful except the Dell (wired) mouse didn't work - no problem, I have several wireless ones and they do work <G>.  The Dell is now online via WiFi; I will connect it to the router by cable in due course (I am fussy about cable quality so will wait till the new ones arrive <G>).  I am typing this now on the new Dell.

 

This initially set up Windows 7 Professional.  It says that Win 8.1 Pro is built in, I take it that is the Anytime Upgrade mentioned in several places.  I intend in due course (that is, almost immediately) to proceed to Windows 10 (can't see any reason not to?).  Question arising, should or must I first upgrade to 8.1, and from there to 10?

 

On starting up, the Win 7 wanted a whole mess of updates - more than a hundred.  Those are all now downloaded and installed.  I have not yet installed any software, other than Google Chrome as default browser.

 

For most of the past two years I have been using a Dell laptop, running Windows 8.0, as my main computer.  I now want to move most of my "stuff" - bookmarks, E-mail (and the rest of MS Office 365) etc., over to the desktop machine.  The laptop will then start living as a laptop, going to meetings and so on.

 

This machine (like all Dells AFAIK) came with a one year subscription to McAfee Live Safe.  I will eventually want to replace the McAfee with Avast Internet Security Premium (unless someone has a good reason for using something else) but don't see any hurry about that.  I've done it on other machines, so I do know how to do that, and in general how to change AV programs.  I like the Avast software, but their marketing is terrible, they can't keep track of who has what and have double and triple billed me in the past.

 

I am in the habit of using MBAM and several other malware prevention tools - SpywareBlaster, WinPatrol, the MVPS hosts file, Web of Trust - to help keep my computer clean.  Am I correct in thinking I'd best complete the updates all the way to Win 10 before installing all that stuff - which might quite possibly interfere with the upgrades?

 

As always, thanks for enlightenment.

 

EDIT 9/6 10:35 or so:

After browsing the Win 10 forum, etc., it appears I could upgrade directly from Win 7, or first upgrade to 8.1 and from there to 10.  If I have understood correctly, it would be hard or impossible to go back to Win 7 from Win 10, but easier to go back to 8.1.  I also got the impression that Win 10 is still a work in progress and rather buggy.  So would it not be smarter to upgrade to 8.1 and sit there for a while, watching how things develop with Win 10?  I don't want to go to Win 10 and then find out that half my software doesn't work!  I gather the free upgrade to Win 10 will be available up to July 29 2016, is that correct?

 

This machine is currently running Windows 7 Professional, and has the upgrade to 8.1 Pro built in.  Am I correct in thinking that whichever upgrade path I choose, I will end up with Windows 10 Professional?


Edited by hamluis, 08 September 2015 - 06:32 AM.
Moved from Win 7 to Win 10 Discussion- Hamluis.


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#2 dc3

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 11:22 AM

If you have Windows 8.1 Pro installed, the upgrade you will get will be Windows 10 Pro.

 

https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/3887/windows-10-upgrade-matrix-which-version-you-get-for-free


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#3 ranchhand_

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 04:05 PM

 

 I also got the impression that Win 10 is still a work in progress and rather buggy.

I have W10 Pro and have been running it for several weeks. I have not found any "bugginess" in it, appears to be stable and dependable.

If you will read over the Windows 10 forums on this website, it won't take you long to discover that the biggest flack it is receiving is the huge loss of privacy that you are agreeing to with installing it. In effect you are agreeing to allow M/Soft to totally review all the data on your HDD or in the cloud, to remove/disable any programs or data it decides is against its EULA, and to nuke your operating system remotely should it desire to do so. In addition, you understand that M/Soft will make available to any source that it deems appropriate, all your e-mail, data, program listings, essentially anything on your HDD. That includes marketing companies. Plus you are agreeing to allow M/Soft to send you sales ads occasionally for their products. I have gotten some already.

Links:

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/585623/windows-10-can-disable-pirated-games-and-unauthorised-hardware/

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/589256/13-windows-10-bugs-microsoft-needs-to-fix-right-now/

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/589517/windows-10-is-great-except-for-the-parts-that-are-terrible/

http://www.suggest-a-fix.com/index.php?/topic/1346-privacy-and-windows-10/

And, last but not least, this:

http://www.techworm.net/2015/07/by-downloading-windows-10-you-are-allowing-microsoft-to-spy-on-you.html


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#4 brainout

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 05:45 PM

@saluqi: Ironic that you're bringing this up here.  I just did a video on this.  You actually HAVE an 8.1 machine which instead has Windows 7 preinstalled via the 8.1 downgrade rights clause, click here for the info.  I'm on the Dell site for your 8700 desktop, and the language for downgrade rights is the same as for the other Dells.

 

You are thus in a uniquely advantageous position, because according to the dell site for your desktop, you also got 8.1 MEDIA, right?  So you can take your time to decide what you want:

  • keep the Win7 you have
  • use the 8.1 disks you have and update to 8.1, since you have it on your laptop and that way you have the same OS on both
  • go straight to Win10.

So your real first question might be, first decide WHERE you might want to install Win10.  If, as you say, you want to transfer the lappie stuff to the desktop, well.. maybe make the desktop 8.1, transfer AS IN COPY your lappie stuff to it.  For your lappie is separately eligible for free Win10 by next July 29, as well.

 

You have TWO machines so TWO potential Win10 upgrades freely available.  

 

Here's yet another alternative: without disrupting your workflow, you could do what I did and slip in a new drive into your laptop, join the Insiders program and try out Windows 10 on a separate drive.  You do have to provide one of your keys to 8.1, but this way you disrupt neither of them.  For there is much to think through.  If Win10 is on a new drive, then there's no privacy to worry about, since you can create a MSFT account with no personal data (I did, so you must be able to). The big privacy caveat is to protect third party data from being on your Win10 machine.  What you do with your own data on that machine, is obviously only an issue between you and you.

 

So you've a lot to think over.  I don't know what's the right solution, it depends on your needs, tastes, etc.

 

Now, in addition to ranchhand's excellent post (and I concur with his findings), I would caution that the reports are, direct change from 7 to 10 -- often borks. I say that based on almost incessant review of the installation stories over the past three weeks.  By contrast, update from 8.1 to 10 borks far less often, and that is in keeping with MSFT update history (i.e., works well when only updating one OS backwards).  Moreover, Dell has a better compatibility for updating, as it doesn't require proprietary drivers, so the install works.  Then, you can go get the better Dell drivers, if you want.

 

So then: why not take your time, wait until the dust settles a bit, given that you still have until next July?  And, given that you already have familiarity and comfort with the 8.1 you use on your laptop?  For one of the big selling points for Windows 7 that you got, is the media center (as distinct from the media player). Given the kind of desktop you have, you might prefer 7 for some of its features, which Win8.1 lacks.

 

But these are only brainstorming ideas, and the typing buffer in the forum is lagging so much, I can't type anymore.

 

EDIT: back now, using Chrome instead of Firefox, testing the lagging.  The added point is meant to say only that the installer is buggy.  But also, that MSFT installations typically bork unless you first remove (prior to running the install):

  • ALL anti-virus programs (McAfee, Norton, Kapersky, AVG, etc); 
  • all MS Office products which are older than 2 years, and even maybe newer; 
  • all third party software which taps the low-level machine function, like EaseUS, Acronis, Macrium, etc. (virus programs do the same, and that's why Win installs bork)
  • you temporarily disconnect all peripherals (i.e., if you have two HDD, disconnect the one you'll not be using for install, have no flash or SSD connected at the time, no webcam, printer, etc.)
  • you uninstall proprietary drivers which are special.  These vary so much I can't be specific.

The thing is, the installer is set up to 'work with' only a given number of computer profiles, and if your configuration doesn't fit inside those profiles, you will have a bad experience.  That's one reason I got Dell machines: they have a good history of accepting Windows updates and OS changes, are good at bare-metal installs.

 

After installation, whatever you removed, can usually be reinstalled without a hitch.  This is especially true for old MSFT programs.  Old programs work very well in Win10 64-bit, even Lotus, old MS Office, DOS with DOSbox to 'husband' its view.

 

Food for thought?  Yell at me if I'm unclear.


Edited by brainout, 07 September 2015 - 06:25 PM.

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#5 saluqi

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 06:17 PM

@arachibutyrophobia

I currently have Windows 7 Pro installed on this machine.  According to the matrix, that also upgrades to Win 10 Pro.

 

@ranchhand_

I am a public official (General Manager of a public water district) so I am used to "openness" - any of our PUBLIC information is just that, it's anybody's for the asking.  Perhaps that makes me extra ticklish on the subject of PRIVATE information.  I recognize the DESIRE of advertisers, etc., to know every particular of their targets' interests and activities - the better to manipulate the minds of their clients' prospective customers.  I do not, however, approve of the "anything goes" style of merchandising with which we are now so largely afflicted  It is all very cleverly aimed at turning otherwise semi-sensible people into "good customers" - that is, infinitely suggestible consumers.

 

Some memorable literature and theater has been created about the prospect - well, in the Soviet world it was more than a prospect - of governments having access to infinite information.  In those days there were limitations imposed by the sheer mass of data and the inadequacy of then existing computers to deal with it.  Today there are few limitations on what one can do with "big data" - and the idea of corporations having that kind of access is not much less alarming than that of governmental access.  "Business ethics" has become, in too many cases, an oxymoron.  The apparent anonymity of "big data" seems to remove most of whatever constraints were still applicable to their use.

 

If i understand correctly, accepting a current M$ EULA involves irrevocably renouncing any right to participate in a class action or other legal process.  I expect somebody will put that to the test - but the company can always say "You signed it" . . .



#6 saluqi

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Posted 07 September 2015 - 07:35 PM

@brainout

 

We bought what I think is the identical Dell XPS 8700 for our office a while ago.  My secretary (who is more than 50 years younger than I, and good with computers) upgraded it from Win 7 Pro to 8.1 Pro easily.  No disks, the 8.1 was already on the machine or online (I didn't look over her shoulder while she was doing it, had enough of my own stuff to do).  My understanding is that my machine here is "really" an 8.1 machine and will upgrade to 8.1 Pro without difficulty.  It has a little Windows icon in the system tray that says "Get Windows 10".  The box says "Windows 8.1 Pro included".

 

My first inclination is to upgrade now to 8.1, and wait for a while to see where 10 is going.  I have some legacy software (legitimate, not pirated, but I've had it quite a while) that might not run in Win 10.  I'm also not crazy about the data capture . . . though that's not new, just more comprehensive than before.  I know, marketing consultants have to eat, but really, some things go too far <G>.

 

The two laptops - mine here at home, and another less potent one in the office that belongs to the agency - are both still on Win 8.0, because the upgrade to 8.1 borked repeatedly.  I think I now know why, so will go ahead and upgrade them both as soon as I can find the time (managing a water district in today's California is a bit frenetic at the moment).

 

OK, what are the Win 7 features that 8.1 lacks?  Classic Shell takes care of the menu issues, I think.  What else?  FWIW I use VLC for all media player functions.  One of the things I will be doing on this computer (more than on the laptop, which will largely be relegated to laptop functions, such as going to meetings and doing PowerPoint presentations) will be video editing and especially photo editing.  I have been a field biologist all my life, and a semipro photographer at times, and have a lot of fairly exotic material I want to work up while I still can.  Africa, Arabia, the Middle East, Australia, not to mention Europe and the U.S., and lots of underwater stuff.  I will be writing articles, books and E-mails on this computer - it's a lot easier to see what you are doing on a 24 inch LED screen than on a 15.6 inch laptop.

 

FWIW, haven't installed Macrium yet, so McAfee (came with the machine) looks like the only thing I'll have to inactivate before upgrading?



#7 brainout

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 06:23 PM

Well, saluqi, turns out one big difference is with videomaking and editing.  I do a lot of videomaking, nearly 2000 videos now.  Moviemaker 6.0 (if you have a dedicated video card like nVidia or Intel, else pick the '2.6' in that link) works very well on Win7, and I don't think it works at all in Win8.  That's your easiest videomaker choice, though there are many paid editors out there (Cyberlink being a favorite of many) but I can't stand any of them.  So which machine and how many videos will you be making on it?  I have dedicated an 8 GB Win7 machine for video rendering, but frankly the GB don't speed it up, nor is it faster on 7 versus XP. But that Moviemaker 6.0 will render in 720p.  My 1080p onscreen recording program is Screen Recorder Gold, and it works fine in 7, but won't work in 8 or 10.  Any of my live onscreen vimeo videos will show you the quality of the recording (sound is coming through my Logitech webcam, just its mike function).  Videos are unedited.

 

Just this morning, I finally got a reply from wisdom-soft, who claims its Screen Recorder Pro 3.1 will work in Windows 10, but it won't even work well in Win XP or 7, for which it was originally designed.  The reply says that Xvid codec might be a problem, not the program, so I queried back to find out WHICH VERSION of the codec they think complies.  For I can't get it to run.  That used to be my main method of onscreen recording, for six years.  Windows Updates borked it, sometime last summer (2014).

 

As for legacy programs, you'l need DOSbox for Windows 8 and 10, but you don't need it in Windows 7.  Old MS Office installs well in 8 if done AFTER install, same for Win10.  In fact most of the legacy programs should install just fine, AFTER you've installed the OS.  So if you'll go to Win10, don't install legacy programs until after you installed the OS.  In other words, don't go from 7 to 8.1, then install legacy, then 10.  Do the legacy LAST.  I even got Lotus Windows 9.8.2 to install (see the BC links in 10 forum on 'Lotus' for more details, for others here used it too).

 

You will still need Classic Shell for Win10, unless you like your Start Screen now turned into a very very very very long alpha list of  'All Programs' which takes nine years to scroll, versus the crabby, horizontal wafting method native to Win 8.0.  You can keep that method in Win10.

 

Adopting Classic Shell doesn't really bring back Windows 7's structure.  But if you are already used to Win8, then that's more important.  Go with what you're used to using.  You save time sticking with what you know, versus relearning from scratch all you already knew.  I have 8 now 8.1, can't stand it, but I'm used to 7 and especially XP.  If you make toolbars in 8, you get more semblance to the Start in 7 than using Classic Shell, but the File Manager (now called File Explorer in Win8), along with the loss of Aero and 'classic' customizability, make for big differences in 8. But again, you have it already, and if you like it, stay with it.

 

Efficiency is the key, and your familiarity is the biggest factor in efficiency.


Edited by brainout, 08 September 2015 - 06:28 PM.

(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


#8 Norseman143

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 06:51 PM

Ok

 

Whats the difference between Regular home version and the pro version?

 

A few more bells and whistles?



#9 ranchhand_

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 08:06 AM

Norseman.... usually the highest grade of any Windows version gives you far more system editing features, especially admin permissions editing. I am running Windows 7 Ultimate and can dive deeply into different aspects of the OS than the typical models. In the majority of cases most users have no need for this kind of options, but I find it very convenient. 


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#10 dc3

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 08:34 AM

Below are some of the differences listed by PCWorld.

 

Memory support (64-bit version only)
Home Premium: 16GB of physical memory supported
Professional: 192GB of physical memory supported
 
Backup and restore
Home Premium: Limited to local HDD or DVD
Professional: Local HDD, DVD and Network
 
Encrypting File System
Home Premium: No
Professional: Yes
 
Remote Desktop Host
Home Premium: No
Professional: Yes
 
Presentation Mode
Home Premium: No
Professional: Yes
 
Joining a domain
Home Premium: No
Professional: Yes
 
Windows XP Mode
Home Premium: No
Professional: Yes

Edited by dc3, 09 September 2015 - 08:34 AM.

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#11 saluqi

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 02:13 PM

@brainout

 

My two Dell laptops, Win 8.0, both came with Windows Movie Maker pre-installed.  I wasn't easily able to figure out which version.  I haven't had occasion to try to use it yet.  This Dell XPS 8700 has a 4 GB nVidia card.  This is the only "live" desktop I have (4 old-iron boxes on the shelf . . . ) so will be the one I use for all personal work in the immediately foreseeable future.

 

My last video was an iMovie made 5 years ago for an international conference presentation, using a very expensive borrowed Macintosh workstation.  The Mac has since been sold and is no longer available to me, so I'll have to start over from scratch.  The raw material I have to work with is all pre-digital - video footage taken by myself using "prosumer" level analog camcorders, and film footage (mostly 16mm) taken by myself and others in the pre-video age.  The subject matter is mostly wildlife and animal behavior.  I'd like to work up some of that material, but more important and urgent is working up about 40,000 35mm Kodachrome still photos.  I have a first-rate slide scanner, so that's just a matter of application.  Tedious, finicky work, but necessary - some of it for a book I am writing.

 

I am comfortable enough with the Classic Shell, and anyway not much bothered by changes in appearance of the interface.  Of course I used XP for many years, but didn't find the transition to Win 8 that much of a big deal.  Didn't like the tiles much, but it's easy to bypass those, and they're still available if you need them.  At present my Win 8 desktop doesn't look noticeably different from this Win 7 desktop (the Win 7 wallpaper pictures are better <G>).

 

Biggest loss giving up XP was (don't laugh) the original DOS-based Bicycle Solitaire game - something to keep my fingers occupied while I am thinking about a scientific problem or working on a knotty piece of writing.  If DOSBox will resurrect that in Win 8, that would be lovely <G>.  If not, well, I will survive <G>.  Of course there are plenty of other Solitaire games, but they aren't the same <G>.

 

It would be nice to be able to run some updated version of an xBase DBMS system - I've invested a lot of time creating software in that environment, including systems for the analysis of complex data from biological environments.  Some of that work, using my data and software, is still going on at various universities, and it would be nice if at my age <G> I don't have to try to learn some entirely different way of handling the data.  I've been out of that loop for some time, though, and don't really know what is currently available for current Windows environments.  I've already morphed my software through a succession of different xBase environments, so if there's anything out there I can probably "relate" to it <G>.

 

As for MS Office, I already have Office 365 installed both at home and at work.  It's pretty hard to function in a professional environment unless you "speak Office" <G>.  Spreadsheets are a terrific explanatory tool (I need that in my work every day).  And yes, I remember Lotus when it was all there was, and have at one time or another used all its various offspring down through the years.  All the major software houses took a crack at it.  Now I am a government official and pretty well committed to using MS Excel for communicating with the regulatory agencies, etc., with whom I deal.  The path of least resistance.  Not cowardice, just practicality.  Gotta choose which streams to swim against <G>.



#12 brainout

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 03:26 PM

Okay, well Windows 10 doesn't work with Movie Maker, so keep 8.1 for that.  As for DBMS, I don't know, but I'd guess you could make it work, since it's so important.  Maybe ask a collegue in the Dept of Agriculture.  After all, they still want stuff in wk1 format, so would know about later compatibility, too. :)

 

DOSbox is designed to run DOS games, so maybe you're in luck with Solitaire. :)

 

Since I won't go past MS Office 2003, Office 365 is persona non grata, here.  But if you like it, I'm happy.  Obviously it will work in Win10.


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#13 saluqi

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 07:19 PM

Office 2003 is a distant memory for me.  I had Office 2007 on the old XP box.  And Outlook Express for E-mail.  Converting my very elaborate E-mail system to Outlook was a major trauma.  I still hate Outlook 2013 (liked 2007 MUCH better), but am learning to manage it.

 

Apart from E-mail my main use is for word processing.  Used Word Perfect for years, and still like it better than Word, I think.  But when in Rome . . . I don't deal with the agriculture folks much, except for scientific stuff at UC Davis.  Daily contacts are with the Water Resources Control Board (where the drinking water program has moved, until very recently it was part of the Department of Public Health) and with the various organizations of water agencies and with the engineering firms involved in various water projects.  My secretary is a spreadsheet wizard so I leave most of that up to her.  She can turn out a finished product in the time it would take me to figure out how to begin <G>.

 

I dare say ten minutes with Google will tell me what I need to know about database compatibility.  I mean, you can turn anything into anything, if you know the structures involved.  It's all bits, or streams of bits.  I once wrote a program to convert an enormous corporate database from streaming packed COBOL into FoxPro-compatible .dbf format.  All you really need to know is how to recognize the beginning and end of each record in the data stream.  You can look that up in the coding manual.  After that it's a cinch.  The point of that exercise was to convert an inscrutable mainframe system (requiring a full-time IT person to maintain) into a completely transparent PC network one, and load 20 years of corporate data into the SBT/AccPac accounting system on the network.  It worked <G>.

 

I have, probably mistakenly, already loaded some software onto this machine - indeed I am typing on it right now (I do not love laptop keyboards, nor squinting at a small screen to see whether I typed something correctly).  I suppose when updating to 8.1 all of that will disappear and have to be reinstalled.  If I remember correctly the upgrade from 7 to 8.1 first wipes out all the Win 7 partitions and then creates new ones for Win 8/8.1.  I can back up all the data to an external HDD, no problem, but don't want to lose the software licenses for McAfee, Office, and a couple of others.  I suppose Microsoft support can walk me through all that.

 

So here comes a really stupid question.  I rather like the "theme" I currently use on this Win 7 machine.  I don't find it anywhere on the Microsoft site - hundreds of themes, but not this one which seems to include striking photos from several different "subject related" themes.  Is there a way to save those things and transfer them to another machine and another version?

 

I am using, in Windows 7 and also Windows 8, a screen saver I retrieved from my old XP machine.  It's not part of the original set in either 7 or 8, but it works just fine in both.  And yes, I know, modern screens don't need screen savers and indeed if anything they might "wear out" the screen a little sooner.  But "3D Pipes" does rather appeal to me as a water district manager <G>.  Maybe it reminds me of what I should be doing?  And I don't let it run very long.



#14 brainout

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 09:47 PM

EDIT:  I can't get Plus to work right in Windows 7.  But you can right click on your theme and 'save file for sharing'.  It creates a theme pack out of everything you have (will prompt to ask if you still want it, if your have a big theme).  The extension it creates is yourtheme.themepack which should work in Win8 or 10. But I can't be sure it will work, as Win10 didn't allow me to install themepacks.  By contrast, I was able to get the old '.theme' from XP and Win98 machines to work in Win10, to the extent of font face, size, some colors.  Win10 is very restrictive about what customizations you're allowed.  I hate it for that (inter alia).

 

==========

 

Yeah, there is a way to preserve your theme, but I'm not sure Win10 will preserve ALL of its features.  I had mixed success in Win10 using Plus! From Windows 98, which you can still buy in Amazon.  But you need a Windows 98 machine first, to create the theme.  I'm not sure you can install Plus! to Windows 7 and create the theme.  Let me go try that first (I have Plus! installed on THIS Win7 machine), and see if I can get it to work.  I couldn't get it to work in a video I just made on the topic, but maybe when not recording, it will work.

 

If you can create the theme in Win7, then even if Win10 won't carry it forward, you should be able to re-create it via Plus!

 

Will be back soon, to report the results on whether I could create the theme from scratch in Win7 and then invoke it using Plus!


Edited by brainout, 12 September 2015 - 10:05 PM.

(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


#15 saluqi

saluqi
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Posted 13 September 2015 - 02:13 PM

@brainout:

 

Couldn't  post this last night, Internet was down due to power failure at relay location.

 

As it happens I have Plus! on a disk, and an old Win 98 machine on the shelf too <G>.  Haven't touched it in many years, probably mice will jump out if I try to start it <G>.  I think I even have a DOS 6 box back there.

 

I think all I really care about are the photos - if I could only figure out where they are stored, i could use them to create my own themes.

 

There are a zillion downloadable themes, and you can also create them using your own images, of which I have thousands.  I just happen to like some of those particular landscape shots.

 

I satisfied my curiosity about the xBase situation.  In the day I have written major applications (or suites) in dBase III/IV, Clipper (my favorite) and FoxPro/Visual Foxpro (that last because SBT/AccPac went that way, and since I was earning my living as an SBT wizard I had to go along).  Clipper has now spawned interesting offspring, Vulcan seems to be a true native-code compiler, which the original Clipper was not.  Moving to FoxPro was a pain because you have to use their libraries, and I had developed my own much better function libraries, for Clipper, years earlier.  It amounted to a big step backward, and I didn't like it.  Had to "de-tune" my whole library system so I could translate it into FoxPro syntax, and lost a lot of functionality in the process.  Argh.  In my day I prided myself on writing very clean, very economical and absolutely fully documented code (that last makes it easier to steal, as I found out later . . .).  I hate working with blunt tools <G>.






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