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No more Dual Boot, with Win10? Confused


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#1 brainout

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:37 PM

Okay, I've been trying to think this through for hours.  Tenforums has step-by-step screens of the 'upgrade' using either the media tool or Windows update (icon click in system tray).  Then it also has step-by-step screens of the 'clean install', which you can only do AFTER the update.  (Sorry, I didn't see equivalents here in BC, so am using their links.)

 

Upgrade link, here.  Clean install link, here.  Common Problems and fixes, here.  Upshot?

  • The installer doesn't want your input. 
  • It instead wants to search your old version of Windows for the product key,
  • so you aren't allowed to furnish one:
  • you are instead required to UPGRADE IN PLACE, the Win10 atop your current (even if you keep nothing). 
  • Any key requested is a Windows 10 key, as the installer also handles Win10 purchased installations. 
  • You won't have such a key prior to upgrading in place.  So you're never asked for your earlier-version key.  Once you update to Windows 10 inplace, you have no key to specify still, as now the Win10 key replaces your old one, and is still embedded in the now-Win10, updated installation.

So I get the following conclusions:

 

1.  Unlike with us Insiders, the official Win10 installation really wipes out the prior version, since you're only allowed to do an inplace upgrade.  Win10 terms in the lifecycle sheet are tied to 'OEM support' and mandatory updates.  These restrictions are not in prior OS versions.  So you just replaced your better old license, with a more restricted license.

 

2. Potentially, if you wanted UEFI, the installer changes all partitions for clean install, so effectively wrecks your ability to restore your prior version: so the '30 day' rollback provision, is nullified.

 

3. You can't dual boot with your older version and the Win10:  for how can you restore your old version, even if you did a non-UEFI clean install of Win10 to a new partition? You effectively replaced your old version's license with the Win10 license due to mandatory update in place.

 

4. The only way to undo this is to clone your hard drive prior to install, then clone the clone back to your drive post-install.  I don't see how the Windows.old file will work anymore.

 

What am I missing here?


Edited by brainout, 30 July 2015 - 11:46 PM.

(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


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#2 paul88ks

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 03:26 AM

I think you are basically correct.I don't have a UEFI machine- so all my Linux installs are intact. The in place upgrade is free for the life of the machine. i just upgraded today- and it was a pretty -much automated install. The first problem i ran into was with my wireless printer.I was trying to print out some sheet music i had purchased,and was only able to do so on Chrome. IE,Edge,Firefox and Opera were buggy-something to do with Adobe Flash Player. But i did finally get it to print. Other than that, Windows 10 has an incredibly long boot time. Those are my first two observations so far! If you are unsure- I would wait until they get the bugs out-



#3 brainout

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 03:46 AM

Is your Windows 10 activated?  It's in Updates and Security, left hand side Activation.. that's where it should read 'Activated' if it's Win10 atop your prior OS.


(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


#4 paul88ks

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 03:49 AM

Yes Sir - it is activated! I mean Maam- sorry - i didn't see your gender


Edited by paul88ks, 31 July 2015 - 03:50 AM.


#5 brainout

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 03:56 AM

LOL you can call me anything but late to supper.    :orange:   So now there is no trace of the OS version you had before?  It was totally replaced by 10?


Edited by brainout, 31 July 2015 - 03:57 AM.

(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


#6 Condobloke

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:07 AM

Please keep in mind that I am a COMPLETE novice when it comes to dual booting......

 

So...tell me why another OS cannot be dual booted with Win 10, ie two OS's on the same pc, eg win 8.1 and win 10........or Win 10 and Linux mint etc


Condobloke ...Outback Australian  fed up with Windows antics...??....LINUX IS THE ANSWER....I USE LINUX MINT 18.3  EXCLUSIVELY.

“A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it."

It has been said that time heals all wounds. I don't agree. The wounds remain. Time - the mind, protecting its sanity - covers them with some scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone. Rose Kennedy

 GcnI1aH.jpg

 

 


#7 paul88ks

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:09 AM

basically Yes- if you had Windows 7,8,8.1 it has been replaced by Windows 10. Although if you just do the upgrade-all of your old programs are still there,and if you know how to dig a little - Windows7 8,8.1 are still there,they are just a little more hidden. The new OS has some major changes,but they have not rewritten the entire Operating System. I would elaborate more- but I am dead tired and going to bed.I'll be back in touch!



#8 paul88ks

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:14 AM

Please keep in mind that I am a COMPLETE novice when it comes to dual booting......

 

So...tell me why another OS cannot be dual booted with Win 10, ie two OS's on the same pc, eg win 8.1 and win 10........or Win 10 and Linux mint etc

I gues technically you could dual or triple boot with 3 Windows OS-as lond as you have a license for each,and they have to be in order from oldest to newest- at least i have done that years ago with Win98-2000-and XP. As far as Linux goes- I currently am triple booting with Win 10,Linux Mint Mate,and Ububntu Studio- but i used Gparted Live CD to partition my drive.then it is no problem. you can have as many Linux partitions as you want!

 

There is also the issue where if you have a newer computer it has UEFI instead of BIOS and i am under the impression that involves something called Secure Boot which can prevent you from dual booting withe a Windows install.There are plenty of people on here that are much more knowledgeable about this than me-as I have yet to encounter it- Paul


Edited by paul88ks, 31 July 2015 - 04:19 AM.


#9 Condobloke

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:27 AM

Does anyone have experience of THIS PRODUCT ?

 

I note that they also allow for non commercial use (Free), and have been around since 2004


Condobloke ...Outback Australian  fed up with Windows antics...??....LINUX IS THE ANSWER....I USE LINUX MINT 18.3  EXCLUSIVELY.

“A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it."

It has been said that time heals all wounds. I don't agree. The wounds remain. Time - the mind, protecting its sanity - covers them with some scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone. Rose Kennedy

 GcnI1aH.jpg

 

 


#10 brainout

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 04:28 AM

Yeah, that's what  I'm getting at.  Say I have Win7, and update it with 10.  Then 10 replaces 7, so no such thing as dual boot with 7.  UNLESS the 10 is a purchased license.

 

This is VERY different from what we have as Insiders, for our releases are now activated with licenses of their own.  NO TIE to the other license, though still we needed to have Win7 or 8.1 in order to get Insider 10.  I have dual boot of 8.0 which became 8.1 and 10.  I provided my 8.0 key to get 10 at first install of build 10162, it asked me for that key.  Which had just been activated directly by MSFT, as the typed key wasn't enough, the guy had to change it remotely.

 

So now, I can't do that again.  My other retail copy of 8.0-becoming-8.1 would be eaten by 10, so no more dual boot, as I understand it?

 

Yeah, Condobloke, I have a $60 copy of Easy BCD but I don't know how to use it.  There is a free version so you can try it out.

 

I don't want to learn dual boot.  EXCEPT with Windows, because it's automatic:  you put the earlier Windows on first, then the later one, and just answer dumb questions each time. :)


Edited by brainout, 31 July 2015 - 04:33 AM.

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#11 paul88ks

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 01:44 PM

yes- Brainout- If you are just dual booting Windows,then the Windows bootloader should handle that just fine.If you were going to install multiple OS's,I would use Gparted.You can download a copy for free- burn it to a CD.Then put the CD in the Cd drive and turn on your computer. That is the easiest way to partition your drive(s) You will need Gparted if you are going to install Linux.One of the reasons I have linux is so that if my Windows System chrashes for any reason- i can always boot into Linux. BCD did not work out for me when I was doing multiple installs,and Gparted is much easier to understand. You might want to try it out just to see what it is all about!



#12 brainout

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 02:55 PM

Well, I'm not making my question clear.  Click here for a backgrounder on the issue by Gabe Aul.

 

In the past, you'd set up one Windows earlier version, and then partition, then set up a later Windows in that partition, and get dual boot.  As an Insider I also did that with 8.0 turned to 8.1, then Win10, using my 8.0 key (retail) to activate Win10.  As an Insider, this all worked as expected.

 

However, with the official version, it looks as if instead, you cannot do this.  Rather, you'd have to

 

1. Partition your old version first, and be sure to clone or at least image it. Leave the remainder unallocated or partitioned.

2. Upgrade 10 on top of the prior version, so it becomes 10 at the end and activates.

And here's where i'm really unclear:

3. Restore your #1 step to that remaining partition.

 

In short, it seems backwards, and is seems like the bootloader will be corrupted such that neither 10 nor the earlier version will work afterwards.

 

Or,

 

3.  Restore your #1 step to the first partition (which seems to me would reverse the Win10 activation, unless the fact of it is elsewhere stored);

4.  Install Win10 on the remaining partition as a clean install (in which case, Win10 prefers an unallocated remainder so it makes its own boot sector distinct from the one for the other OS).  For supposedly, once Win10 activated, it can be clean installed.  So that implies its activation, is not stored on the hard drive.  Else how could you clean install it only after upgrading?  Very confusing.

 

Am I better describing the problem now?


Edited by brainout, 31 July 2015 - 03:19 PM.

(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


#13 paul88ks

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 07:33 PM

Brainout- there is a forum topic which is now closed called-"Will you be upgrading to Windows 10" in which,I think, all of your questions can be addressed. This is my understanding of the way this whole thing works.

 

If you upgrade to Windows 10 (official release) from Insider build 10162-as i did- Windows 10 replaces -10162- the activation keys are stored on Microsoft's Servers,so,you do not need an activation key.It does NOT become a dual Boot with Win 7 and Win10.

 

You can not go back and use your Win7,8,or8.1 Cd to reinstall on a separate partition,since the old key is deactivated when you upgrade to Win 10.

If you are unhappy with Win10 you can go back to your previous version,but you can not keep the free upgrade.

 

I am not sure how you would do a clean install of Win 10 after doing the upgrade,i know the activation key for Win 10 IS stored on the computer as well as Microsofts servers,so you  would have to make sure you have that key if you want to wipe the drive and do a clean install. There are quite a few people on here who could be more specific in these matters- one member whos name is Drew- and Aura who is a second tier Windows specialist, and Drew works for Microsoft. Let me see if I can get them to weigh in on this,as I would not want to mislead you intentionally- Paul- Let me get back to you! i know how frustrating this can be!



#14 brainout

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 07:52 PM

Thank YOU, paul88ks, I do know that information.  Thank you for your time, and you don't need to spend more of it!


(Away, Notifications Off) AUDIT PREMISES, my guidon.  -- brainout or brainouty on vimeo or Youtube, domain brainout.net


#15 ronju

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 08:48 AM

After doing the upgrade, I did a clean install of Windows 10 Pro without any problems on my desktop. I had run a registry cleaner and it wiped out my metro style start function. I did this on another machine also and had to do a clean install on it to restore the function.

 

The problem I;m having now is trying to dual boot Linux Mate on an old Acer Aspire one d255. I tried to access the Bios but it is password protected. I didn't protect it myself as I've been doing this computer builds and installs for over  16 years and never password protect the Bios. Haven't been able to access Bios since.






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