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The Man Who Painted the Future

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#1 Jove


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Posted 24 June 2015 - 07:00 AM

I googled "911 premonition paintings", and of course found a few.

So, how real are they ? I happen to have one in my possession.

but there out there ?

Anyway my guess is that concerning attempts to authenticate them the

soup is going to get thin.

The one I have I have addressed a request to see if it was actually

painted in the 1990's.

Your comments along the lines of interest will be appreciated,
I will try to add a bit more here soon, etc.


2:25 PM 9/2/2014

Subject: RE: [Fwd: FW: DATING PAINT]
From: "Bronwyn Ormsby" <removed email address>
Date: Thu, April 24, 2014 4:45 am
Priority: Normal
Options: View Full Header | View Printable Version | View Message details

Dear Joe

I am afraid I am not able to offer an authentication service at Tate.

I would suggest you contact Nicolas Eastaugh, who offers this type of expertise.

His contact details are:

If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know.



Dr. Bronwyn Ormsby
removed personal information

Phone: removed
Mobile: removed
Email: removed

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 23 April 2014 20:56
To: Bronwyn Ormsby
Subject: [Fwd: FW: DATING PAINT]


Bronwyn Ormsby

removed email address and personal information

This concerns my recent request concerning a painting, in my possession, that was
painted in the 1990's, since it is a painting entitled,"Premonition", and it is
somewhat a scene that might be a foretelling of the 911 attack in the U.S.
in 2001,it is necessary to authenticate it.
Can you advise me on possibilities of succeeding with a determination?


---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
From: "Finch, P" <removed>
Date: Mon, March 31, 2014 6:45 am


Please find below a message from my colleague in Vienna, as I suggested dating paint
at the period of interest is likely to be difficult. I am shortly setting up to do
pyrolysis again but you may feel that the experts noted below would give the best
chance of success.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Finch
removed personal information

Office Tel removed

From: Pitthard Vaclav [removed]
Sent: 31 March 2014 09:05
To: Finch, P

Dear Paul,

I am very sorry for late reply, I was in Graz last week, I am afraid with modern
materials I am not able to help, there are people in the Tate Gallery in London,
they have pyrolysis too and do analyses of modern materials...

or Tom Learner in the Getty Conservation Institute in Los Angeles....( he used to be
in the Tate...)

Maybe this could help ....

Yes you are right, the dating of this materials is very difficult, if particular
pigments are involved, then maybe, but with binding media it is hard......



PS. The contact names:

Bronwyn Ormsby
removed personal information

removed email address

Tom Learner
removed personal information

Von: Finch, P [removed]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. März 2014 11:46
Cc: Pitthard Vaclav; Schreve, Danielle
Wichtigkeit: Niedrig


Thank you for your enquiry about dating paint. I have contacted my colleague Dr
Pitthard who now works in Vienna and am awaiting a reply. I presume that the paint
("latex") is what I would know as emulsion i.e.
water-based and suspect that dating such might be difficult. I believe that there
are databases of pyrolysis gas chromatograms of vehicle paints kept for forensic
purposes but the data for emulsions is probably more fragmentary. Certainly there
are studies of acrylics and such by pyroly

Edited by Queen-Evie, 24 June 2015 - 04:37 PM.
removed email address, moved topic from Speak Easy to General Chat

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#2 rp88


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Posted 25 June 2015 - 04:53 PM

I would like to say here that it is VERY easy to find historical texts, images and predictions which appear to predict future events (that is future events as far as the writer/painter was concerned but recent history to modern day the viewer). The key thing to notice here is that usually the historical piece (painting/prophecy/prediction...) can be interpreted many ways, to the modern viewer it may look like an image of a well known event (or in the case of a text read like a verbal description of one) however to a viewer looking at this painting before 2001 would it look the same way? Or would they have perceived the image to be something utterly different? Especially with written prophecies it is very easy to interpret them in many ways, as like astrology columns in newspapers they are written in very vague senses.

Think also of some of the answers given in ancient greece by the oracles, there was an incident where the oracle told an ancient greek leader that if he attacked an enemy then "a great empire would fall", it turned out to be his empire which fell. Notice how this prediction is worded so that it is still valid whatever the outcome of the ancient battle (I think it might have been the sea battle of salamis which this prediction was made about, but it could have been thermopylae or one of the other wars between xerxes (or his son) and athens). Predictions which people remember are those which appear to be right because they were worded/drawn in such a way that the mind fills in the details and turns the vague prediction into a precise description of an event.

So, even if the dating of this painting is conclusively proven to be old enough that does not make it a premonition, because unless the painting has a time/place/date and some exact details on it somehow then it is easy for it to be interpreted in many ways, and modern viewers will tend to interpret it in the context of events they know about.

Also note that throughout history the same predictions have been recycled by each generation, as an example notice how many of nostradamus's writings have been differently interpreted by each generation, in a way which considers the predictions to be premonitions of events in their lifetimes, each subsequnet generation then forgets what meaning the previous one assigned to the prophecy and replaces it with a new meaning, one which indicates the prophecy predicted an event in the later generation's lifetime.

For a painting/prediction or prophecy to be considered accurate it must not only be proved to be old enough to precede the historical event in question but also shown to be precise enough that it predicts that event, rather than vague enough that it can be interpreted by a viewer however they choose to interpret it.

The human mind originally evolved as a tool to help our ancient ancestors find food and avoid being food for something else, it is therefore hardwired to spot correlations between things, even when there is no true link. In the distant past early hominins who spotted correlations were less likely to be eaten, or more likely to find food, and those who could not spot correlations would often starve or find themselves on the menu of a lion. Therefore evolution seleted for those individuals who would spot correlations anywehere, even when in reality there was none. The consequences of spotting false positive correlations were minimal compared to the, often lethal, consequences of failing to spot real correlations. Therefore there was no evolutionary pressure to limit the circumstances under which humans spotted correlations. This ability to spot correlations, even when in reality there are none, is perhaps why the idea of permonitions is so common, because subconciously our minds still work to make connections between things, even when there are none.

The crucial thing to note is that people don't say " I saw this painting/read this historical text, now I predict that major event X will happen in the future.", what people do say is " I saw this painting/read this historical text, it reminded me of major event X. Major event X happened more recently than the date when the painting/historical text was made, so there must be a connection.". And then our hardwired urge to find connections strengthens this link until we are absolutely sure that information somehow travelled back in time from major event X into the mind of the artists/writer many years earlier.

Edited by rp88, 25 June 2015 - 04:56 PM.

Back on this site, for a while anyway, been so busy the last year.

My systems:2 laptops, intel i3 processors, windows 8.1 installed on the hard-drive and linux mint 17.3 MATE installed to USB

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