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#1 Chameleon Jim

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 10:48 PM

I posted this in the Ram and Power Supply section initially but was directed here. Will copy paste original thread and attach the perfmon+sysnative

 

"

Howdy all,

 

Specs First:
MOBO: MSI P67A Military Class II
CPU: AMD FX 4100 Quad Core
GPU: 2x Nvidia GTX 460 in Sli
OS: Win 7
RAM: 2x 4GB Gskill 1600
PSU: Corsair TX850w

 

System is ~5 years old

 

The Problem:
My computer has recently started suffering crashes. It seemed to be a power cut to me at first but now I am not so sure. It just happens every now and then, no reproducable trigger that I know of (except the memtest discussed below)

 

The computer just clicks off, black monitor, no power to the tower. It does not reset itself, but I can instantly power it back on if I hit the power button.  Unfortunately this also means no Crash Dump or Error Log, since the computer is just losing power in an instant.

 

I am running dual gpu's in sli so first I tried disabling one of them, then the other, then doing a clean install of new drivers in safe mode. The problem continues.

 

I ran combofix and malwarebites and did a scan just in case it was a virus (I doubted it was) but the system came back clean.

 

Next I tried running memtestx86 from a usb. The computer crashes within the first 10% of the test.

 

I have 2x 4GB DDR3 in my tower. Called Ram#1 and Ram#2 from here.

 

I removed Ram#2. Only Ram#1 in the tower. Ran Memtest again.

 

Failed within 10%. Black Screen No Power.

 

I removed Ram#1. Only Ram#2 in the tower. Ran Memtest again.

 

Failed within 10%. Black Screen No Power.

 

I had assumed initially that one of my 2 ram sticks was bad due to the memtest failure... but now I am not sure about that either. It seems strange that both of them would be failing independently at the same point..

 

I tried using a different power outlet (even though the computer has been in this location with no problems for ~6 months) and it still crashed running memtest.

 

In between the removal and retesting the computer made me select F1 or F2 for setup or load defaults. I chose F1 and verified the memory was listed, then just exited in between. Do I need to reset my CMOS between tests or anything?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I am kind of stumped."

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Edited by Chameleon Jim, 06 June 2015 - 10:49 PM.


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#2 blueelvis

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 05:07 AM

Hi Chameleon Jim & Welcome to the forums ^_^,

 

There are no dump files included in the list. The way you have described your problems, it is possible that we might be dealing with a hardware problem.

 

First of all, are you overclocking your system? If yes, then please revert back to STOCK Settings. Also, let me know in case you overclocked in the past because components tend to degrade faster when overclocked.

 

I also see that you have EVEREST from Lavalys installed on your system. Have you been doing Stress Testing?

 

Could you please run the below  free diagnostics (Thanks usasma!) -

 

http://www.carrona.org/hwdiag.html

 

While performing the above diagnostics, please make sure that you keep a report of the temperatures (I have a strong feeling that your system might be overheating because I have experienced things  with my laptop like you are experiencing now). I use the free software called CoreTemp to monitor the temperatures which you can download from the below link -

 

http://www.alcpu.com/coretemp

 

Also, while performing the Memtest, by any chance did you notice the Temperature field which is displayed? If yes, then what did it say?

 

Oh and yea, what is the wattage and age of the power supply installed in your system?

 

Let me know how it goes ^_^

 

 

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#3 usasma

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 05:09 AM

I was writing this up while blueelvis was posting.  Please follow his suggestions first.

 

Please uninstall LogMeIn - it's showing problems in the Perfmon report.

It's also in the Problem Devices section of MSINFO32:

 

LogMeIn Kernel Information Provider    ROOT\LEGACY_LMIINFO\0000    This device is not present, is not working properly, or does not have all its drivers installed.

 

BIOS dates from 2011 - check to see if there are updates available.  If it's installable from within Windows, go ahead and do it.  If you must boot from a disk to flash the BIOS - be very, very careful as any mistakes can physically damage the system.

 

Many, many, many Live Kernel Events in the WER section of MSINFO32 (please note the 3rd use of "many" - there's a whole s***pile of them!)

Please do the following:

- open Event Viewer (run eventvwr.msc from the "Run" dialog)
- expand the Custom Views category (left click on the > next to the words "Custom Views")
- right click on Administrative Events
- select "Save all Events in Custom View as..."
- save the file as Admin.evtx
- zip up the file (right click on it, select "Send to", select "Compressed (zipped) folder")
- upload it with your next post (if it's too big, then upload it to a free file-hosting service and post a link here).

FYI - If we're looking for Event ID 41 errors (unexplained shutdowns), there's more info on that here:  http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2028504

While waiting for a reply, please monitor your temps with this free utility:  http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html

There's enough signs here that I have to think that this is a hardware problem.  As both the RAM sticks failed at the same time, I'd start looking at the motherboard or the CPU.

Start by running Prime95 (info here:  http://www.carrona.org/prime95.html )

Run the Blend, Small FFT's and Large FFT's tests

In general, try to run them all at the same time.  This'll keep the system close the same temps, and will help with the results.

Time each until errors show up (or until the system does something funny, like garble stuff or crash).  The differences in the times can sometimes be helpful.

FYI - the Blend test most tests RAM, while the others mostly test stuff from the CPU and memory controller (in your case, the memory controller is on the CPU).

 

Finally, run the rest of the tests from here:  http://www.carrona.org/hwdiag.html

Let us know the results and we'll move on from there.
 


Edited by usasma, 07 June 2015 - 05:10 AM.

My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#4 blueelvis

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 05:24 AM

I was writing this up while blueelvis was posting.  Please follow his suggestions first.

Sorry for that. As always, you have provided an excellent explanation.

 

Many, many, many Live Kernel Events in the WER section of MSINFO32 (please note the 3rd use of "many" - there's a whole s***pile of them!)

Now, that you have mentioned it and the use of the word bleeppile, I took a look and dang, there are so many of them :o

I wish there was some more information provided with those errors since troubleshooting and finding the culprit in such errors can be really difficult (At least for me :0) )

 

 

-Pranav


Edited by blueelvis, 07 June 2015 - 05:24 AM.

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#5 Chameleon Jim

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 11:56 AM

Hi Chameleon Jim & Welcome to the forums ^_^,

 

There are no dump files included in the list. The way you have described your problems, it is possible that we might be dealing with a hardware problem.

 

First of all, are you overclocking your system? If yes, then please revert back to STOCK Settings. Also, let me know in case you overclocked in the past because components tend to degrade faster when overclocked.

 

I also see that you have EVEREST from Lavalys installed on your system. Have you been doing Stress Testing?

 

Could you please run the below  free diagnostics (Thanks usasma!) -

 

http://www.carrona.org/hwdiag.html

 

While performing the above diagnostics, please make sure that you keep a report of the temperatures (I have a strong feeling that your system might be overheating because I have experienced things  with my laptop like you are experiencing now). I use the free software called CoreTemp to monitor the temperatures which you can download from the below link -

 

http://www.alcpu.com/coretemp

 

Also, while performing the Memtest, by any chance did you notice the Temperature field which is displayed? If yes, then what did it say?

 

Oh and yea, what is the wattage and age of the power supply installed in your system?

 

Let me know how it goes ^_^

 

 

-Pranav

 

Hi Pranav, thanks for the reply.

 

I have reconfigured my system to not auto-reset on failure and to provide a complete dump. Waiting for another crash to see if I can generate a report from that.

 

I am not overclocking my system, nor have I ever overclocked anything.

 

I was not doing any stress testing with everest, I just use it for general monitoring.

 

I have temp monitors on my system already.The last time I crashed the cpu was around 40C, gpus around 35C. My system isn't under load when it is crashing, and it is clean and has adequate airflow.

 

I was not watching the temp field when memtest was crashing my computer but I can give it another pass if you want.

 

My PSU is 850watts and it is the same age as everything else in the system (~4  years). All componenets were bought together.

 

Will report back if I can get a crash log.


Edited by Chameleon Jim, 07 June 2015 - 11:57 AM.


#6 Chameleon Jim

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 01:25 PM

Usasma,

 

Uninstalled LogMeIn.. I had actually tried uninstalling it previously but it was in some weird "half uninstalled" state so I manually wiped it from my system and the registry.

What are live kernel events? If you dont mind my asking.

 

I have zipped both admin.evtx and the LocaleMetaData folder that were produced from running event viewer and attached the zip.

 

The event 41s are definitely there and definitely when my computer is shutting off.

Attached Files


Edited by Chameleon Jim, 07 June 2015 - 01:47 PM.


#7 Chameleon Jim

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 01:46 PM

UPDATE: RUnning Prime95 crashes my computer as well. Even though I have configured it to not shut off and produce a complete dump it just turnes off with no data.

 

Temps were ~82C on CPU at time of crash. All 4 cores were at 100% load during testing. Test ran for approximately 3 minutes before computer turned off.

 

Attached the newest Admin.evtx which I ran directly after the crash, and a picture of my sysdm.cpl setting to prove I have it configured correctly.

 

Power is just shorting out, leaving no time for any diagnostics or data collection... I checked %systemroot%\minidump and %systemroot% for the .dmp file and there was none created.

 

Spoiler

Attached Files


Edited by Chameleon Jim, 07 June 2015 - 01:54 PM.


#8 usasma

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 04:03 PM

Live Kernel Event (Event ID 41 in particular) is simply Windows saying that it doesn't know why it shut down.

There's several different possibilities for this:

- a crash where Windows doesn't know that it's crashing

- a hardware problem (includes overheating)

- shutting off the computer by holding down the power button.

So, what I do first is to look for patterns in the Admin log file.

The absence of a pattern is also a clue - it tends to point to hardware problems or the user holding down the power button type of errors

Other patterns in the log may tell us that there's an event that precedes each Event ID 41 - so we look at that event to see if it's contributing.

While I'm looking at these reports I also encourage temp monitoring and diagnostic tests.

 

You've done the temp monitoring, and you haven't seen any excessively high temps

But the Prime95 test causes crashes - so that's a good start.

 

As you've seen, the temps on your CPU get very high when using Prime95 - so the next step is to investigate the cooling system for the CPU.

In general, 82ºC isn't really all that hot for a CPU (I generally don't worry until they hit 90ºC) - but it's still a good idea to ensure that the cooling isn't contributing to this.

Make sure that the CPU is firmly affixed to the cooler and that it has adequate thermal paste/compound to keep heat transferring to the cooler

Make sure that the cooler is clean and free of dust/dirt/hairballs/etc

Make sure that the fan on the cooler is running and is blowing cooler air down into the cooler

 

Also, you have to wonder about heat inside the case.

A good way to test this is to point a house fan (on high) into the case and see if that lessens the crashes.

Let it run for a while before turning it on - so it can cool down components that don't have sensors on them.

Also, you can use a infrared thermometer to measure the different temps inside the case.

If you have steely nerves and don't worry about an occasional burn - immediately after the crash remove the power cord from the system, open up the case and feel around inside near all of the components (don't actually touch them - just get near enough to feel heat).  Be very, very careful as you can get 2nd and 3rd degree burns doing this.

 

It's my opinion here that you're not getting BSOD's - so you won't be able to capture a dump file (as none will be generated).  I suspect that it's either a heat problem, or a RAM problem.  Which test did Prime95 crash on?  The Blend, the Small FFT's, or the Large FFT's?

 

There was one error where the system tried to produce a crash dump and failed.  I suspect that this was just a slower crash than the others - which allowed Windows to start the process of creating a crash dump but wasn't slow enough to allow it to complete.  From looking at the Admin log, there's just no patterns there.  As such, this is most likely a hardware problem. 

 

Performing maintenance on the cooling system, feeling for hotspots inside the case, using a house fan to cool the contents of the case, and seeing what tests in Prime95 are causing the crashes quickest are what we need to determine now.  As I stated before, it's most likely overheating - but we don't know what component.  If not overheating, then it could be a bad motherboard, bad RAM, or a bad CPU.  If I'm right about the overheating, the house fan should make things last a bit longer - so you would have time to investigate further.

Good luck!


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#9 usasma

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 04:05 PM

Just another thought.  Have you done any overclocking or do you have any custom BIOS settings?

Regardless, please reset the BIOS to default/fail-safe values and see if that helps.


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#10 Chameleon Jim

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 04:26 PM

Howdy Usasma,

 

I am actually already running a house fan into the case. I have been running it like that for months. After the crash I have felt around inside the tower and nothing feels excessively hot. I actually just went a bought a new PSU and will be testing it again.

 

Prime95 crashed on the blend test. I will run it again with the new PSU in place and if it still crashes... thats at least one component eliminated.

 

I have not done any overclocking at all with this system, everything is still at factory defaults BIOS-wise.

 

I have already installed the New PSU and will try running the blend test again, if that faults I will also try the other two and see if it is failing all of them or only some of them.

 

Currently installing some windows updates I have been slacking on (I set it to manual and am kinda lazy about keeping it up to date)

 

EDIT: Ran Prime95 again with brand new PSU. Small FFTs. Computer turned off about 5 seconds after beginning the test... Oh well, I have a new PSU now hahaha.

 

Says Small FFTs is not a RAM check, so I am assuming this means my CPU or MOBO are bad? This would explain why no matter what RAM stick or slot I was using for Memtest, I was getting shutdowns all the time as well...


Edited by Chameleon Jim, 07 June 2015 - 05:44 PM.


#11 usasma

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 04:14 AM

The Prime95 test routine isn't a very certain test, but it does tend to imply that the problem isn't coming from the RAM.

Have you run the Large FFT's test yet?  If so, what was the result?

Prime95 stresses the RAM, CPU cache, and memory controller.

The tests aren't 100% for each component (for example, the Blend test tests mostly RAM, but does test some of the CPU and the memory controller).

 

Try one of the CPU stress tests from here and see how fast it crashes:  http://www.carrona.org/hwdiag.html#cpustress

The point here is to try and rule out the CPU.  If that's the case, then it'll have to be a problem with the motherboard.

 

Either way, whichever is to blame will have to be replaced.

But when you do it, be sure to purchase it from a place that takes returns as you don't want to be stuck with a new part if you can't use it (in case the tests are in error).


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#12 Chameleon Jim

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 10:36 PM

Sorry, work and stuff. Been busy.

 

Anyways, the main cpu test on the link you provided is for Intel chips. I have an AMD cpu.

 

I used one of the other tests listed. Specifically S&M 1.9.1 from this site (http://www.benchmarkhq.ru/english.html?/be_cpu.html)

 

L1 cache runs fine. L2 cache crashes my computer.



#13 usasma

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 06:43 AM

Looks like a problem with the L2 cache on the CPU

Find another test to stress the L2 cache.  There's more than just the Intel test listed on my website - here's the other links:

 

-  Other Stress Tests:
- http://7byte.com/index.php?page=hotcpu
- http://www.7byte.com/index.php?page=burnin64
- http://www.overclock.net/general-processor-discussions/657486-cpu-stress-test.html
- http://www.fossiltoys.com/cpuload.html
- http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file/fid,7146-order,1-page,1-c,alldownloads/description.html
- http://www.overclock.net/general-processor-discussions/657486-cpu-stress-test.html
- http://majorgeeks.com/CPU_Stability_Test_d215.html
- http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=201670
- the test(s) suggested at this link are bootable:  http://www.techsupportforum.com/forums/f15/headless-cpu-stress-testing-393435.html#post2232929

If it fails again, consider replacing the CPU

Purchase a CPU from a place the accepts returns and will refund your money.  That way, should you not need it, you can return it for a refund.


My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.

#14 bernardphillipp

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 12:32 PM

Maybe try with another CPU, just for testing purposes?



#15 usasma

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 05:02 AM

reply deleted


Edited by usasma, 11 June 2015 - 05:03 AM.

My browser caused a flood of traffic, sio my IP address was banned. Hope to fix it soon. Will get back to posting as soon as Im able.

- John  (my website: http://www.carrona.org/ )**If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask for it. I have the Knack. **  If I haven't replied in 48 hours, please send me a message. My eye problems have recently increased and I'm having difficult reading posts. (23 Nov 2017)FYI - I am completely blind in the right eye and ~30% blind in the left eye.<p>If the eye problems get worse suddenly, I may not be able to respond.If that's the case and help is needed, please PM a staff member for assistance.




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