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The Problem Of Evil


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#1 yano

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 08:25 PM

I was reading the following wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

and I was wondering, and have been wondering since I was little if God exists, then why would he allow evil to exist? Maybe it is beyond his control? Maybe there is a anti-God (ie: satan from hell).


If God exists, then there would be no evil in the world.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, God does not exist.


What are you arguments for evil, for God?

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#2 groovicus

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 12:21 AM

If God exists, then there would be no evil in the world.


I think it would prove just the opposite, Everything has a dichtomy... day/night, dry/wet, happy/sad...good/evil. By that logic, in order for good to exist, there must be evil. If you had nothing to measure good against, how would one know what good is? If you were never sad, how would you know what it is like to be happy? If it never rained, how would you appreciate the warmth of the sun?

If you take the point of view that souls are reincarnated, then there has to be evil in order to keep things in balance. Reincarnation construes a need for a soul to be balanced in order to appreciate eternal bliss. If one never experiences all the dichotomies life has to offer, then how can one be truly balanced?

If you believe in Karma, then one must suffer for the wrongs that they have committed. If all you ever do is take and never give, then you have a debt that must be repaid. If you do bad, then bad will visit you. If you do good, then good will visit you. The only way you will know if it is good is to be able to measure it against the bad.

In modern religion, evil must exist in order to deter those that choose to walk the path of evil. If God truly wants us to reside in Heaven, then he must present us with choices that seems so repulsive and contrary to the nature of good that we naturally choose to be good.

#3 seafox14

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 12:53 AM

Hi Yano. Glad to see this discussion thread started.

God does allow evil to exist. I know some may be spewing a soda at their monitors over me saying this (especially after some of my posts on other topics). Satan, (originally named Lucifer) also exists. God made Lucifer. He was the most powerful angel in heaven that God had made. Lucifer became jealous of God and rebelled (a third of the angels rebelled with him). However, since Satan ( ie Lucifer) was made by God, He is not as powerful as God ( Though he still has a tremendous amount of power). God gives everything He made a choice between good and evil, even the angels. Without this choice there is only slavery. God didn't want slaves. If He wanted that he would not have given the angels that choice. The same goes for humanity.


God is Omniceint. He knows everything. He knew what would happen then he gave us free will and the choice to choose Him or not. He knew how everything, down to the smallest subatomic particle, would turn out in the end of time (ie He knew the end of all things from the beginning). But as I stated above, He wanted people to choose Him freely and of their own will, not because they had no choice at all. Yes that means that He knows every choice that you will face in your life and what choice you will make. He knew this before he uttered the first words that started creation.

Let the debate begin!

BTW: It's good to see you posting again Yano. I have not seen a post from you in about a month.

Seafox14

Edited by seafox14, 26 June 2006 - 12:58 AM.

5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#4 medab1

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 02:25 AM

I'm don't know the answer to such a situation.
It is beyond my knowledge at this point.

Learn to take screenshots & add them to your posts. :thumbup2:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/43088/how-to-capture-and-edit-a-screen-shot/#entry4532851

Learn to use Google Search.  :busy:

Make full system images to restore to if your computer goes bonkers.


#5 yano

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 10:34 AM

Thanks SeaFox. :thumbsup: I just like to see opinions from everyone on topics that can go either way depending on how you look at them. :flowers:

#6 buddy215

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 10:47 AM

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded and the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics...you are all stardust.”Lawrence M. Krauss
A 1792 U.S. penny, designed in part by Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, reads “Liberty Parent of Science & Industry.”

#7 Heretic Monkey

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 10:49 AM

God created lucifer, knew that lucifer would betray him, and thus created everything that is horrible and disgusting in the universe. He just needed a scape-goat for the evil to balance out the dichotemy (which groovicus described earlier). We needed something to compare "good" to, but god didn't want people to confuse god with anything "bad", so he created a weaker subordinate for people to cast their scorn.

So either he blames everything bad on lucifer, or he kills millions of people and rationalizes it by calling them "sinners". A baby in the womb dies a few days before the due date and people call it the work of satan. The earth is flooded, destroying almost every living creature, and it's called a glorious act of god. So a death is satanic, but genocide is godly..... awesome. The only difference is that "god is good" because the bible says he is, so people don't look at anything he does as wrong. Satan is the whipping boy, so ANYTHING he does is going to be considered evil.

#8 jgweed

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 11:31 AM

"Beyond Good and Evil"

The whole argument disappears if one would posit, in the famous words of F.W.Nietzsche, "There are no moral phenomena, only moral interpretations of phenomena." Moreover, the antithesis between good on one hand, and its "opposite," evil, could be construed as a lazy habit, or generalisation, of the mind based on localised social norms and history.

Again, to posit a world of values independent of and completely outside the human world in which the active intellect resides, is to posit a realm that is in principle unknowable. Even if it were to be knowable, however, it is impossible to determine whether the human world even corresponds in any way to it, i.e., that action X in some mysterious way "partakes" of good (or of evil), since one would have to be in priviledged position to view both worlds.

Again, granted the existence of the two opposites (say as mental constructs) it is difficult (at least in real life situations) to put every human action into either the one or the other of these absolutes, and to ignore a very fine gradation between the two ends of a scale. The existence of these gradations would therefore seem to suggest that the opposite ends are not as certain as one would believe.

Here one could just as easily say that the opposite of "good" was not just "evil", but also the opposite of "good" was "bad." This seems to mean that what we call good is not one single concept, but rather a family of resemblances each of which member has some (but not all) characteristics it shares with other members of the concept.

What we call good or evil actions, then, either is derived from outside the universe of our understanding or is derived from experience, or shared values of our time and place. If the former, there is no way to validate these standards, and if the latter, these standards are dependent on one's position in space and time.

Regards,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#9 Pandy

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 01:20 PM

I believe in Karma. I think if you do bad things you will have alot to make up for.. maybe not in future lives because I am not sure about reincarnation yet ( I think it might be true). Maybe even in your own life and in your own time. The more "evil" you are the more "evil" things you attract. The more "good" you are the more "good" things return to you.

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#10 Darthy

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 05:37 PM

seafox14 Posted Today, 06:53 AM
God is Omniceint. He knows everything. He knew what would happen then he gave us free will and the choice to choose Him or not. He knew how everything, down to the smallest subatomic particle, would turn out in the end of time (ie He knew the end of all things from the beginning).

If God is Omniceint, how do you explain what Genesis said?

The Book of Genesis
001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was
upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon
the face of the waters.

001:003 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

001:004 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the
light from the darkness.

If God, only after He created light, saw that it was good, it seems to me that He didn't knew what He was doing when He created the light, don't you think??? :thumbsup:
Once more The Genesis

001:009 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered
together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it
was so.

001:010 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together
of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Another time, God only knows that things are good after he created them, why not before??? :flowers:
If so, how can you say that He's Omniceint and say that He knew how everything, down to the smallest subatomic particle, would turn out in the end of time??? :trumpet:
With respect,
Darthy
Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα - Socrates
Thanks John

#11 Scarlett

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 05:58 PM

Darthy

Have you never done something knowing you could, and then still looked at final results and thought to yourself, Good Job?
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#12 seafox14

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 10:40 PM

Thank you Scarlett. I was about to make the same comment. Very well put. :thumbsup:

Seafox14
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#13 legoman786

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 01:22 PM

In Islam, Lucifer was actually one of God's most loved angels. God did give the angels a right to choose, but only in their preference of to stay with God or stray from the path. So, anyways, when God created man (Adam PBUH*), he ordered alll angels to bow down before him as mankind is superior than the angels. All, including Gabriel (or the Holy Ghost as some may know), bowed down before Adam PBUH except for Lucifer. When asked, Lucifer said that there is no way that he would bow down to an inferior kind. So, God punished with the stripping of his angelic status. Since Lucifer (I can't remember his other name that he went by during his angelic status), was God's most loved angel, he granted him one wish. Lucifer originally wanted to control all humans, God denied this request and was asked for another wish. Then, Lucifer said that he only wants to control the humans by just feeding them thoughts of evil, God granted his wish. And since then, well, we all know what's happening now.

*PBUH = Peace be upon him.

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#14 Darthy

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 04:24 PM

Scarlett Posted Yesterday, 11:58 PM
Have you never done something knowing you could, and then still looked at final results and thought to yourself, Good Job?

Sorry Scarlett I'm only human, I'm not the God that seafox14 says that's Omniceint and knows everything, even "how everything, down to the smallest subatomic particle, would turn out in the end of time (ie He knew the end of all things from the beginning)"!!! :thumbsup:
With respect,
Darthy
Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα - Socrates
Thanks John

#15 yano

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 05:18 PM

And if God is Omniceint and knows everything, then wouldn't it be boring up there, knowing what things happened before they did? Heck, maybe He should play the lottery. :thumbsup:




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