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Live And Let Live ...


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#1 MaraM

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 04:19 PM

Actually, I'm been thinking a lot about this lately for several reasons - but partly because of following other threads here on 'SpeakEasy'.

I wonder what it is about mankind that seems to have this huge unending urge to not let others 'live and let live'.

Humanity, in general, has a tendency to condem others -

Many Christians have a huge urge to 'reform' non-believers ... yet I rarely hear of a non-believers trying to 'reform' a Christian.

Many people condem others for being 'Gay' ... yet I suspect 'Gay' people aren't a shred different than the rest of us in any area other than 'sexual preference'.

Many people condem those that have abortions ... yet if it was their 14 year old daughter/sister that was raped, would they feel the same way? There are so many reasons a woman/girl wants/needs an abortion- and for me at least, the old adage "Walk a mile in my shoes", comes to mind.

And on and on it goes.

Yup, at the risk of sounding like a true dreamer, how I wish all of us could simply 'live and let live' - "Do no harm to others" would pretty much cover it.

With respect,
Mara
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#2 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 10:58 PM

Abortion for a rape victim is one thing. But I dont agree with it either. 1% of all abortions I read are from rape victims..All the others just want to have sex without babies. DONT WANT A BABY DONT HAVE SEX. Simple proven technique(ha ha)

I consider it murder. But I dont hate the person just what they do as I think its wrong.

I wonder what it is about mankind that seems to have this huge unending urge to not let others 'live and let live'.


Man walks up to door and knocks...
Mis,
Your boy is playing in the road. You need to get him out he could get hurt or killed.
Mother: Its his free will I would never judge or try to force my beliefs or rules on him. Just let him play its his life and his choice to play in the road.
Mis, he is not aware he could get hurt,you should tell him the dangers.

When you see somebody doing something wrong that could hurt them wouldnt you want to tell them?

As A Christian Jesus told us to go and preach to the world. I share my belief but its up to the person to listen and change. To do something is better than doing nothing.

Telling the kid to get out of the road is the right thing to do. If the kid does not listen he will get hit one day.

We should tell others there doing wrong. THERE IS A WRONG AND A RIGHT!

Should the police not step in when people are passing around drugs or when people beat up each other? Should they say live and let live? Its not hurting me why should I step in?

No they should not have that attitude.

When people think or know something is wrong they let others know.

Edited by cowsgonemadd3, 12 June 2006 - 11:34 PM.


#3 MaraM

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 12:44 AM

Hi Cowsgonemadd,

I actually agree with many of your points ... but a full quote of what I said would have been:

"Yup, at the risk of sounding like a true dreamer, how I wish all of us could simply 'live and let live' - "Do no harm to others" would pretty much cover it. (unquote)

It's the combined 'live and let live' when it comes to other's beliefs and actions AS LONG AS they do no harm to others. They sort of go hand in hand.

Of course I didn't mean to let children play in the road and take no action. By not taking action, we would be 'causing' harm to others - children truly lack the basic 'survival skills! Eek!

But in the simplest terms, I guess what I'm trying to say is just that I wonder what it is about us human being that 'judge others' so readily.

I do realize that you truly don't "hate those that have an abortion", Cowsgonemadd - but you think it is "wrong". Who are we to judge for someone else, I wonder, what is 'right' or 'wrong' for that person? Mind you, if it's any comfort - I too wish abortion was never used as a form of just 'birth control').

Although this is straying a bit from your actual point re abortions a bit, please don't be offended when I say that your quote: DONT WANT A BABY DONT HAVE SEX (unquote) made me smile to myself. Take a couple who for any reason (health, already having as many children as they can afford to raise, etc), yet are young and for perhaps religious reasons do not believe in birth control. Should they go without sex for the remainder of their life? Eek!!!

And, for instance, if two 'Gay' people decide to adopt a child - who is to say this is "wrong" either. Surely two people in love have the same 'need' to have a child and surely a loving home with two or even one caring parent(s) can provide a terrific environment for a child - be they 'Gay' or 'Straight'. (Just as some 'Straight' people lack the ability to be good parents or even good people, I'm away it holds true for 'Gay' people, too - but perhaps everyone can be judged on their individual merits rather than their sexual inclination).

And if those that have what we consider perhaps 'odd' religious beliefs would simply accept their religion is 'right' for them but not necessarily for others, we poor 'infidels' wouldn't be endanged by the fanatics that feel we should be wiped off the face of the earth. Aah, live and let live and do no harm to others would be a wonderful thing in so many ways.

Another quote where you stated, "We should tell others there doing wrong. THERE IS A WRONG AND A RIGHT!". (Unquote) Again, in who's opinion is it 'right' or 'wrong' - and in what conditions would the right and wrong of things apply, I wonder? For instance, to watch someone belt a child without intervening would be a 'wrong' thing - yet is it 'wrong' for someone to perhaps practice Wicca rather than Christianity, etc?

It would be "wrong, very very wrong" for me to steal - but I also do not condem a person who steals a loaf of bread to feed their child, as long as they harmed no other person (other than the profit the poor shop keeper would lose from the future sale of that loaf of bread and I know I'm 'splitting hairs' here but what the heck).

Many feel it is a 'sin' to tell a lie - and perhaps it is. But in that case I'd be in big trouble. For me, to tell a lie to 'get myself out of trouble' etc would be very very 'wrong' to me - but for instance, if a young teenage neice asked if she "were ugly and fat" - I would lie. Yes, I'd lie by ommision if necessary, but it would still be technically a lie, because she is not asking for 'truth', but rather reassurance. So, for me at least - one can't even judge liars as people lie for different reasons.

I'm not attacking your beliefs in any way, Cowsgonemadd - it's just for me, there is so many more 'gray' areas than 'black or white' in this world when it comes to trying to understand others. Gracious, I'm still trying to understand myself - gentle smile!

With kind regards,
Mara
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#4 jgweed

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:51 AM

I can only agree, MaraM, with the distinguished sentiments you voiced in your first post. Far too often, as Sartre once wrote, the fear of truth is the fear of freedom. If this fear of freedom had no consequences outside of the fearful individual, then one could simply smile; but this fear must, it seems, necessarily extend itself to denying freedom to others to protect and insulate itself from living in "fear and trembling," and living with a certain amount of uncertainty and responsibility for one's actions.
Intolerance of other's way of life and other's opinions is the other side of the coin. It is indeed unfortunate for mankind that this attitude of intolerance has often translated itself in actions in the political and social world.
Best wishes,
John
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#5 MaraM

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 12:08 PM

Hi John,

How lovely it would be if somehow a magic wand could be used to change all world leaders to men and women with your understanding of where intolerance truly seems to stem from!

You're words reminded me of a wee lesson my father taught me when I was a child - "It's okay to be 'unique' (as we all are) but be careful too. Animals attack anything they sense to be 'different' ". Perhaps we humans haven't evolved as much as we like to believe - gentle smile.

Kind regards,
Mara
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#6 Heretic Monkey

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 01:02 PM

Ah the joys of religious fanatics:

Crazy Lady 1
Crazy Lady 2

*note: the second link contains questionable advertisements on the right hand side (scantily clad women, no nudity). If this makes you uncomfortable (or breaks a rule) do not click the link. I couldn't find that clip anywhere else, unfortunately.

This is a prime example of people MaraM is talking about. This woman has no respect for anyone outside of her own "christian" cult, and will go to the ends of the earth to make sure everyone knows it. The disheartening fact is that there are probably hundreds, thousands, even MILLIONS of people out there like her that just don't get any airtime....

Again, who is to say what is right and wrong? If someone doesn't believe what you believe, let them "wander in their ignorance". Just because YOUR beliefs tell you to "spread the word" or save lost souls doesn't mean people want to hear you preach or have hellfire shoved in their faces.

#7 seafox14

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 01:06 PM

Hello MaraM. I would like to congratulate you on starting this discussion tread. This is certainly going to be an interesting one.

I'll start by saying that, the live and let live philosophy while good to use in debates and wishful thinking, has no practical application in the real world. Case in point, Law (secular law). Secular Law (ie the laws in any country or nation on this planet) cannot coexist with the live and let live mentality. I think that we can all agree that, without some kind of law or other restriction on people's actions in a society, their would be chaos followed by the collapse of that society.

It is true that Christians do go out and seek to tell people about the faith. This is because Jesus told us to go and preach the kingdom to all the earth (see the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the new testament). however he never once told us to convert by the sword (the Crusades and the Inquisition). As a matter of fact, Jesus gave us a model of how to spread the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven ( see the Gospel of Luke chapter ten).


Now in my personal opinion, homosexuality is an abortion and perversion of human sexuality. That argument that people are born homosexual is unsupported by medical science. There have even been multiple attempts to find the " homosexual gene". Never once have researchers found it. Now I will admit that medical science may just have not advanced enough to find it. I doubt that it does exist. Some may say that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom proves that homosexuality is normal. If you look at homosexual acts in animals you will find that it is done as an act of domination, not pleasure ( male dolphins have been known to gang rape an unwilling female dolphin, but we still consider rape abnomal and a crime).

Now about abortion. I have made my point of view on this subject known in the abortion discussion thread in the speak easy. I would ask you these 2 questions. What about the unborn babie's right to live? If you are so concerned about not harming others, then why kill the unborn child for the crimes of the father? Yes this means that if I had a daughter and she was raped, I would councle against having an abortion. I would recommend adoption instead of abortion if my daughter could not handle keeping the child. That is more in line with the " do no harm" line of thinking. As for the " Walk a mile in her shoes" adage, while I can try to understand what she is going trough, I am still male so true understanding of the rape would be impossible.


This line of questioning is what happens after many years of moral relativism and situational ethics. That is why many reject the Word of God. God's word teaches Absolute Truth, everything IS black and white not shades of grey. So to sum it up, people need boundaries (myself included). If there are no boundaries, the result is anarchy and the collapse of the culture. Just look at the crime rates and the school violence that have skyrocketed after moral relativism and situational ethics were adopted in the education system.

If asked I'll share my faith, the choice to believe or not is up to you. :thumbsup:

With respect
Seafox14
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#8 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 01:09 PM

I do realize that you truly don't "hate those that have an abortion", Cowsgonemadd - but you think it is "wrong". Who are we to judge for someone else, I wonder, what is 'right' or 'wrong' for that person? Mind you, if it's any comfort - I too wish abortion was never used as a form of just 'birth control').


Again there IS A RIGHT AND A WRONG

If abortion is wrong for one its wrong for all. I consider it murder.

Would it be right for one to shoot someone but someone else wrong? No!
A murder is a murder.

It would be "wrong, very very wrong" for me to steal - but I also do not condem a person who steals a loaf of bread to feed their child, as long as they harmed no other person (other than the profit the poor shop keeper would lose from the future sale of that loaf of bread and I know I'm 'splitting hairs' here but what the heck).


But the meaning of STEAL does not change even when trying to just survive. It doesnt make it right.

as long as they harmed no other person


You say harm no other person but right below you say just harming the owner of the bread. So they would be harming someone.

Many feel it is a 'sin' to tell a lie - and perhaps it is. But in that case I'd be in big trouble. For me, to tell a lie to 'get myself out of trouble' etc would be very very 'wrong' to me - but for instance, if a young teenage neice asked if she "were ugly and fat" - I would lie. Yes, I'd lie by ommision if necessary, but it would still be technically a lie, because she is not asking for 'truth', but rather reassurance. So, for me at least - one can't even judge liars as people lie for different reasons.


There are no white lies. A lie is a lie. If a person asks a question you dont want to answer tell them that. DO NOT LIE and say, I had to because you NEVER have to lie.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

They asked you either tell them you dont want to answer or let them know the truth. There is right and there is wrong there is no in-between.

#9 MaraM

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:20 PM

Oh dear, Cowsgonemadd,

I honestly know how easy it is to get 'caught up' when reading another's post - but please, if you get a chance, go back and re-read my previous one - perhaps a bit slower and with less, what appears to be, anger? Gentle smile.

There was a different topic thread discussing the 'right and wrong' of abortions - so guess we simply 'agree to disagree'. But I do wonder if you perhaps feel as strongly about ... a baby' isn't a baby when rape happened the night before, so the 'morning after pill', for instance would not be 'murder', surely?.

And no, stealing a loaf of bread perhaps doesn't make it 'right' but surely it's better than a child dying from starvation? (Yup, lots of gray areas in my life and I freely admit to it).

It's okay to feel the way you do about (Quote) THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE (unquote) - but there's (in my opinion anyway) truth, 'vicious unnecessary truth' and then 'lies by omission'. Guess it's just a matter of interpretation as I honestly see some of them far kinder than others.

Take, for instance, one is a guest a another's dinner party and Mrs. Jone Doe asks you how the brussels sprouts are. The truth would be to say, "Yuck! I hate brussel sprouts and they are swimming in butter and why would anyone serve this much butter when you know everyone is concerned about their health?!!". 'Right or wrong' I'd take the 'easy' way out - simply not eat them but push them gently around the plate on occassion and cheerfully say, "Don't you just love the green of brussels sprouts? They match perfectly with the summer purse you just bought". Mrs. Doe isn't an idiot and I suspect she'd know what I really thought about them since they were still sitting on my plate ... but what purpose would the 'truth' in this instance serve? To hurt her feelings and ruin a perfectly lovely dinner party. And besides, I do love the green of brussel sprouts! Yup, the truth can be very cruel and perhaps should be used with great caution in some incidences?

While being zealous about something can be admirable, perhaps being so firmly entrenched in one's 'truths' makes for a bumpy world - both for one's self and those around them. Would it help any if I changed my "Life and Let Live/Do No Harm To Others' to "Live and Let Live/Do as little harm as possible to others"?

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier - suspect we'll just have to 'agree to disagree' - another gentle smile.

Wishing you well and with respect,
Mara
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#10 MaraM

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:51 PM

Hi SeaFox, I'm so happy you've joined us in our discussion!

(Quote) "I think that we can all agree that, without some kind of law or other restriction on people's actions in a society, their would be chaos followed by the collapse of that society". (Unquote)

Yes, I really do agree with your above statement! I think that area would fall into the combined 'Live and let live' AND 'Do no harm to others' (or as little as possible). I'll never understand those that walk our world filled with fury and anger and rarely even the basic understanding that hurting/killing others is doing harm harm harm - and that's why we have our Police.

And I also agree so very much that 'people need boundries' - and although I could be wrong about this, I suspect teaching our children boundries at the earliest age possible is so, so important. I think about wee ones and how they often hit and kick - usually because they can't yet express themselves verbally and the wee mites are undoubtedly frustrated. But as the months go by, it's not that hard for parents to gently but very firmly get the point across that hitting is crossing one of 'those boundaries' and is not acceptable behavior. I know it's a simplistic view but from these early months on, this is when we have the greatest chance to teach a child boundry after boundry. We'd still need Police Officers because we are a 'varied species' when it comes to morals - but perhaps the violence in schools and on the public streets wouldn't be so prevalent. Sigh.

Nope, we're likely never going to agree on the abortion issue - but that doesn't truly matter because I honestly suspect that even as firm as you are on your beliefs on this issue, you would never stand outside an abortion clinic and scream "Murderer!!" into a girl's/woman's face either.

The only thing that truly makes my heart sad is our hugely differing view on 'Gay' people. I'm not a scientist or even a scholar but I do know a two precious little boys. Even at a very early age (crawling stage) one was a 'boy's boy' and wanted rough and tumble type toys. The other loved the colour pink, butterflies and flowers, Barbie, etc. Who knows if this child is 'Gay' - but if he is, he already is and it's not something he'll 'choose' to be in later life. Oh dear, I do wish I could remember my cousin's words about homosexuality and religion - but in his Church, they believe that 'God created man in his image' - ergo, 'All are welcome in the house of the Lord'.

(Quote) "It is true that Christians do go out and seek to tell people about the faith" (Unquote) and (Quote) "If asked I'll share my faith, the choice to believe or not is up to you". (Unquote)

Oh SeaFox, I have some wonderful friends very similar to you in their faith and gentleness about 'if asked'. A gentle sharing of one's beliefs would never offend me and I truly admire you for it.

Always with respect,
Mara
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#11 MaraM

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 12:06 AM

Oh Heretic Monkey, I could just hug you, truly I could because yes, this is literally the prime example of what I meant!

And I wanted to weep when I viewed the above links! (And to be truthful, I wanted to reach out and slap the woman - in her rightousness, she knows no boundaries of decency or caring for others - and if she was a kid, I'd paddle her diaper and start teaching her that cruelty towards others is not her right, no matter what her beliefs!). Hiss and boo to this woman and those like her!

I think of the word 'abomination' - and that is how I view this woman and those like her. An abomination to humanity - to kindness - to even basic understanding. She is using HER truths to be deliberately vicious and cruel - bet she picked wings off butterflies when she was a kid!

Thanks so much for putting those links there - she is a perfect example of 'Don't Live and Let Live/Do Harm to Others' - all in the name of her beliefs. Eek!

With such kind thoughts,
Mara
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#12 rowal5555

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 01:41 AM

WOW MaraM. You really stirred things up here - good on you.

On Religion. I can take it or leave it. I try to live according to the beliefs I was brought up with, ie do unto others, and help where I can, but I choose to do this outside the confines of the established church.

Abortion. I don't agree with abortion as an easy fix and do think that an unborn child has a right to life, but also that each case needs to be judged on its merits.

Homosexuality. A very christian person I was talking to the other day made a disparaging remark about gays and their choice of lifestyle. I was quite amazed as I thought that true Christians were supposed to be tolerant of others and have a forgiving attitude. This subject is not one I give a great deal of thought to, but I read a piece a while ago which made a lot of sense to me. This was, that very early in the development of a foetus, exact amounts of various hormones at precise intervals were required for a foetus to develop normally. Multiple factors could and do interfere with this process, eg. the mother's sickness, stress, drugs or alcohol intake at these times. I don't think that 'gays' choose their inclinations but that these are born in them. My concern is for the child growing up, expected to feel and act in one way by parents and society, while inside they must feel completely differently. They must be in a turmoil of guilt, anxiety and bewilderment as to why they are different to their peers.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

Cheers

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#13 seafox14

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 07:29 AM

Hello MaraM.

You are right in saying that it is wrong to stand there and shout at a woman going into an abortion clinic calling her a murderer. If I was there, I would ask the woman if she had considered all the options and get her to start thinking instead of just reacting to a situation on just emotion (i'll be the first to admit that men do this too). I would council adoption. Yes she would have to live with the reminder of the rape till the baby was born, but then again she would not have to deal with a lot of the emotional and psychological scarring that abortion can leave.

As a Christian I follow (I try at least) the example that Jesus gave us. That example is, that while he despised sin, he did not hate the sinner. If he had hated sinners, he never would have gone to the cross for us. If you have not seen this movie, I highly recommend The Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson. I will warn you ahead of time that it is a brutal and graphic movie. They did not pull any punches when accurately depicting a Roman scourging and crusifixtion. It does show what Jesus went through, because he loved us enough to give up his earthly life so that we could be reconciled to God.

With respect
Seafox14
5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Donít be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world

#14 Heretic Monkey

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 09:26 AM

You are right in saying that it is wrong to stand there and shout at a woman going into an abortion clinic calling her a murderer. If I was there, I would ask the woman if she had considered all the options and get her to start thinking instead of just reacting to a situation on just emotion (i'll be the first to admit that men do this too). I would council adoption.

Now that's something i like to hear...... er, read. It's cool to get your opinion out there and voice your concerns, but they should NEVER be expressed in such a way as to cast scorn on people that don't think the same way you do, or to make the others feel like an abomination or that they are "wrong".

The chick i posted a while back was definately an extreme case, and shouldn't be considered a "normal" christian viewpoint. Who could be happy about soldiers dying? Who would spread rumors and lies about dead soldiers being gay when there was nothing to support it? If anything, this chick is more of a terrorist than an american. She would be the kind to bomb abortion clinics. That's something i never understood. You're against murder in the form of abortion, but whole-heartedly support bombing a building and not worrying about killing whoever is still inside....

Edited by Heretic Monkey, 14 June 2006 - 09:29 AM.


#15 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 10:09 AM

Im not angry at you Mara...Sorry if it sounded that way.

The gays choose to be gay. My 2 cousins played with barbies and they were no less guy like. Your saying barbies are for girls and pink and flowers are for girls. Lots of guys like Flowers and even pink.

Now they are older and like girls not guys...

Its sin that causes them to go towards a gay lifestyle.

Is a murderer born or does he choose to kill?




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