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Problems with HP Pavilion MS214 AIO PSU (notebook type)


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#1 cat1092

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 02:05 PM

In 2012, sometime before Windows 8 was released (during the preview), I began getting BSOD's during the install process. it would take a few attempts to get the install to go through, then all would be fine. Once Windows 8 was released on promo to the everyone, I upgraded (actually cleaned installed) the OS, bypassing the upgrade & creating an ISO. I then used the Windows 7 USB/DVD download tool to create a bootable Flash drive & also a DVD. 

 

No matter which type I used, the initial part of the install would go through (as with the previews), then there would be a reboot. It was always around the 65% (or so) mark that the PC would BSOD. It took 6-7 attempts to get the install to take place. to go all the way through. Had to reset the PC a couple of times & the same would happen, requiring more clean installs, where the same thing would happen & it took more attempts for the install to complete. There are no longer any Event Logs, but the only device that wouldn't work was the wireless card (Atheros AR5007EG), which I disabled in the Device Manager. 

 

After a few months of frustration with Windows 8.1 Pro w/Media Center on this PC, I reinstalled the original OS (Windows 7 Home Premium x64) & for a bit, the issue went away. Sometime after this, I happened to be moving some things around in my workstation desk cabinet, where the built in power is, plus the UPS that was being used. For that purpose, the UPS was fine & still is used to backup the modem/router, plus my backup devices, to make room to plug another device (not to the UPS). It was then, that compared to the other two notebook type PSU's under there, that the one for the HP was very hot, after moderate use (Web browsing), too hot to hold comfortable. 

 

Finally, one day the PC would no longer boot. I managed to get it to a few more times, to run diagnostic tests, but it would always crash. During this time, the PSU would be just as hot & was no longer plugged into the UPS. Then one day, it would no longer boot, no matter what I tried. However the power light still comes on in the center of the button & the green light where the PSU still comes on. Also, the CPU is getting power, because it gets warm & the fan power cycles normally. The HDD is spinning. The notebook style optical drive has been removed & am using it as a portable for other devices, so that can be removed from the equation. The CMOS battery has been replaced. 

 

What it won't do is show any graphics (even the HP splash screen), nor will actually boot, or recognize any USB devices plugged in, keyboard/mouse, or Flash drives. If it were, the light on these would blink. This is the PC in question. I've tried to get it to boot on three different outlets, all were in separate areas of the home. 

 

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/product?cc=us&dlc=en&lc=en&os=4063&product=4007502&sw_lang=

 

Now, what I have done to test the PSU is this (as seen on YouTube video). Using a multimeter. placed the negative lead on the outer part of the connector & the positive lead to the center pin. Consistently get voltage reading of around 16.23V. This is over 2 Volts less than the 18.5 as what the specs on the label shows (genuine HP PA-1121-42HQ). As another test, though I don't know if this means anything, placed the negative lead as usual, to the outer portion of the connector & the positive directly to the inner wall of the connector & am getting a 19.94V reading. That would be nearly 1.5V extra, if that means anything. 

 

If this PC were 10 years old, I wouldn't be wasting my time over this. However, it was less than 4 years old when the PSU was overheating & tapped out. I paid around $600 for the PC, averaged over 4 years, that's a poor ROI (return on investment) at $150/year. Windows 7 is still being supported for awhile, so if a new PSU will make it run, I would like to go for it. At the time, cannot find any used ones to test with, so would have to chance $20-25 to see it it's the answer. 

 

Now, before I spend any money, is there the chance that other components may be bad? I know that there are no guarantees, but am hoping that someone else has experienced similar issues & can provide feedback. Did I perform the test right (negative to outer sleeve, positive to center copper pin)? Too, there are no bulging capacitors or burned spots on the MB. 

 

And should the 18.5V be consistent, as in that range all the time? I'm not an electrical expert, however it's my understanding that it's the amps that varies, the more the demand, the more amps needed & will be provided up to the max of the PSU, which is 6.5 Amps. 

 

The PSU is 120W. My belief is that it was inadequate for the PC as shipped, though it's mostly notebook components, it has a 3'5" SATA ll HDD, along with an 18.5" monitor. I've seen notebooks w/out a large monitor & regular notebook HDD (or SSD) with larger wattage PSU's than this (150-180W). And slightly different business models of the MS200 series ships with a 150W PSU. 

 

I just don't want to pour a lot of cash into what may be a damaged PC from a bad PSU, but would take the chance if there's reasonable belief that it may run. That is, PSU only. I'm not spending cash to replace the MB or other components. 

 

And if there are other tests that I can perform with a multimeter to test for damage, I'm all ears. 

 

I've provided as much detail as I can remember, has been since late last year since it last ran. 

 

Thanks for any advice or assistance provided.   :)

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 


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#2 cat1092

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 12:27 AM

Replaced PSU to no avail, now it still won't boot, nor BIOS screen show. 

 

May be backlight screen issue, but also may be MB one. In which case, this is likely the end of the road for me & that PC. Have no more cash to throw into it, hopefully the PSU can be used elsewhere. 

 

Cat


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#3 zingo156

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 08:05 AM

I have seen lots of issues with the video chip sets of the HP all in ones and HP DV or G series laptops. That said, your voltage should always be ~19.5v from the outer ground and inner lead (not center pin) but rather the inside of the barrel jack end.

 

Here are my canned hardware diagnosis instructions:

 

Make sure you have the computer unplugged from power while removing or moving any hardware...

 

Try 1 stick of ram in 1 slot at a time (remove all other ram sticks). Move it to the next slot until you have tried that stick in all slots by itself. If you still have no post, try a different stick of ram in each slot by itself. If you have issues with the stick in 1 particular slot (a no post for example) the slot may be bad. It is also possible you have a bad stick of ram instead of the slot being bad, in this case the ram stick should cause the same problem all slots.

 

You may have a memory controller issue in which case if you have 4 slots, 2 may not work. With intel it should be 2 slots next to eachother channel 1 might be slot 0,1 and channel 2 might be 2,3. Trying with 1 stick at a time in all 4 slots is the best way to test everything.

 

If you never get a stable system with just 1 stick of ram in 1 slot (trying all sticks by themselves) try removing all non essential hardware to get into bios:

 

Disconnect wireless cards, pci cards, pci-e cards - except a video card unless you have onboard in which case use the onboard video and pull the video card, hard drives, dvd drives, disconnect all usb headers as well. You should only have the power supply, main board, 1 stick of ram in 1 slot, the cpu and cpu cooler connected. You can also plug in a monitor and keyboard. Now try to power on the machine. If at this point you have no post screen or video etc, unplug the computer and pull the stick of ram, power back on and listen for a post fault beep code, you will need to hook up a motherboard speaker to hear any post fault code.

 

If you get no response next: remove all of the components from the computer case and connect only non essential hardware outside of the case, place the motherboard on a non conductive surface, a wooden table will do fine. Then try to power on again, you can short the power button pins on the motherboard, don't worry this is exactly what the power button does. Just touch a metal item to both power button pins to try to power the mainboard when outside of the computer case.

 

While you have the computer apart, look for blown or bulging capacitors on the mainboard and video cards etc examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bulging+or+blown+capacitors+motherboard&noj=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Iz_YU6aDLsS2yASnjoKwAQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1031&bih=603 please report any caps you suspect may be bad, you can take a picture and post here if you are unsure.


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#4 cat1092

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 01:43 PM

zingo156, thanks for the suggestions! :thumbup2:

 

Am starting on this now, have swapped both RAM sticks around to no avail, but I still have the originals (the installed set is an upgraded one to 4GB), will find & try those to see if any progress is made. If not, then will follow the sequence you've given out. It may take a couple of days to get it all apart, will need to take some pictures along the way, to make sure everything is back the way it was. 

 

HP ought to be sanctioned for producing this junk & calling it a computer. It's basically an oversized notebook, probably built of surplus components, with some backroom engineering tossed in. 

 

Cat


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#5 zingo156

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 01:49 PM


 

HP ought to be sanctioned for producing this junk & calling it a computer. It's basically an oversized notebook, probably built of surplus components, with some backroom engineering tossed in. 

 

Cat

I have had similar thoughts on this, the DV, G, (Compaq Q) series laptops had problems for many years spanning nearly every model. The video chipsets just did not last. This was either a heat related issue or some other unforseen engineering issue. The all in ones are basically a laptop as you mentioned fit inside a monitor. One thing about all in ones: they get really hot. Dusting them out frequently helps a bit but it seems cooling was an after thought on most of them. It wasn't only HP that had issues when it came to all in ones, dell, lenovo, sony, nearlly all that I have seen had higher instances of failing hardware due to (most likely) heat when compared to a similar laptop with the same hardware, even some of the older i-macs had chipset problems. HP definitely has the worst track record from what I have seen in the retail world in the past ~5 years.


Edited by zingo156, 08 September 2014 - 01:51 PM.

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#6 cat1092

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 11:23 AM

Yes, this computer ran hot for a couple of years, the only thing it has for cooling is a notebook type fan, and obviously when I blowed it with the air duster, didn't get the fins good enough, dust was packed in it some. MB Temps were reported by Speccy at 60C in minutes, after 30 minutes or so, around 80C or higher. Thing is, that graphics card, the ATI/AMD 3200, is built into the board, there's a little blue pad over it that the heatsink sat on, though by appearance, it didn't look burned, nor was the pad covering it in bad condition. 

 

Really I can't find any bulging capacitors, or heat related damage so far, except where the RAM sticks goes, it has a scorched look & the top stick barely holds in, the clips are plastic & very flimsy. I removed the MB a few months back & seen no damage, but I also realize that not all damage can be seen with the naked eye. The only thing significant that I can recall, there is a foam pad right behind the RAM sticks on the opposite side of the MB, it was damp or wet feeling. Don't know if it was condensation or what, but it was moist. That pad, in that place, must have been there for a reason, there's no more such pads on the board. 

 

The problems began with I was running the Windows 8 previews, it would take several times to install (BSOD), same with the final version. Finally I gave up & transferred the license (the $40 Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center promo) to my Toshiba, had to call the activation in, according to the EULA, this is transferable to a qualifying computer, and they activated it for me. 

 

Reinstalled Windows 7 from the backup I had, also installed Linux Mint in dual boot mode, ran good for a 3-4 months & one morning my wife said it wouldn't boot. I had it setup for her to use. 

 

The original RAM sticks did nothing. I was wondering, if I possibly spread the thermal paste too thin & that's why it won't start. Used a piece of sandwich wrap around my finger to spread the paste thin & even (Arctic MX-4). That's how I always do it on other computers with no problem, to ensure the paste is even. No problems with any others I've done this way. What I don't understand is that the CPU does appear to come on, the fan cycles fine, the HDD will spin if plugged in. 

 

I'm going to tear it down again, but it's going to take some time, due to my health condition. Have to take lots of medicine & it's hard to spend long on a project at a time. Otherwise, I could have lots of business, if I wanted to do it, have had to turn down countless jobs that just 4-5 years ago I could do. Re-installs & simple things like RAM & HDD/SSD changes/upgrades, GPU installs, I can & still do, but anything that involves removing the MB, I don't mess with. This one was the last one I removed & that was a few months back. 

 

Had I known these AIO PC's by HP were basically oversized notebooks, I'd have stayed away. This is the last one I'll own, regardless of brand. Most are the same, and the thing is, HP is still pushing this junk. 

 

Is it possible that the BIOS is lost or corrupt? It did boot a few times about 4-5 months back when I was working on it. Upgraded the CPU, thinking that was the issue, to a Athlon X2 4450e, which is compatible. It ran for a bit, but when I'd try to run the built in diagnostic tests, it would crash, normally during the HDD testing, it would make it through the video. I was thinking that the PSU was tapping out, as the HDD was running fine. 

 

Well, will work on it some more later today & will also test that drive while out on another computer, though I don't feel it's the problem. 

 

Thanks for your words of advise.  :)

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 


#7 zingo156

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 12:12 PM

It is really tough to say for sure, I am curious about the scorch marks near the ram, that and the moisture (maybe this caused a short?), I have personally never seen a moist pad anywhere inside of a computer. What that is I have no idea. I have to imagine that it is there for a reason. Running with high temps all the time does appear to be what wears them out, actually I am not certain if it is the non stop heat or the heat and cooling cycles as in, when it is turned off it cools, when it is turned on it heats up, that expanding and contracting of solder joints may be the cause. Who knows for sure, what I can say is that this "no video" issue is all too common with HP especially the models mentioned above.


Edited by zingo156, 09 September 2014 - 12:31 PM.

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#8 zingo156

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 12:33 PM

Does this model have a video output other than the internal monitor?


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#9 cat1092

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 01:29 PM

No, unfortunately it doesn't, the models similar for business use does. Here's a picture I took of the strange sponge. The moist feeling was when the PC was first disassembled, when I replaced the CMOS battery & blowed out the dust good. 

 

P1000669.jpg

 

You can also see the weak RAM clips, the top one is sticking up. There's some chrome on these, but I think it's a plating more than actual metal. 

 

I should have taken this PC apart & cleaned it sooner, I know. But the plastic is cheap, I felt that I may crack it during opening & that's why I didn't do it. It could only be seen at night in a dark room, in the left corner of the screen, at the seam, one could see the light through the small opening. I guess maybe it was during the assembly process it wasn't sealed good? The two other monitors I have (one an HP) doesn't do like this. 

 

It would be great even if the computer isn't salvageable, the monitor could be saved, but research has shown that's not a good option (various parts are needed for the conversion) and still no 100% guarantee, I could almost buy one better for a little more than the parts cost. Plus it's not a top line monitor, a 1366 x 768, that's odd for an 18.5" monitor, have seen 15.6" ones with 1600 x 900. But that HP was built in 2009 & the one I just spoke of was built this year. 

 

What I don't understand is the CPU is working, it has to be, it's heating up & fan cycling, left it on for 24 hours to cure the paste. That other CPU that I bought for $15 is a nice 2.4GHz one, it wasn't running wide open all the time like the stock one did. Which I feel contributed to the issue. This was meant as a spare PC maybe for bedroom or student use, not the 12 hours days I was putting on it the first couple of years. It would have been great & better for the PC, had I been able to upgrade that CPU sooner, but at that time, it was a $100 upgrade. 

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 


#10 zingo156

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 01:48 PM

I would not recommend operating the computer with the ram that is not held in properly at an angle, I have actually seen loose sticks cause shorts and damage before. I have seen lots of laptops with the holding clamps damaged a few where one stick of ram at an angle and was preventing post.

 

That sponge like material is actually just a spacer between the board and the metal, sometimes they put it there if there is room for the board to flex to prevent it from hitting the metal. Why it was wet is the best question yet... Possible liquid damage?

 

All of the previous failed hp's with no video would still heat up, both the gpu and cpu in all cases I can recall actually opening and testing... If you can get a picture of the scorched area, I would be interested to see it.


Edited by zingo156, 09 September 2014 - 03:33 PM.

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#11 cat1092

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 09:26 PM

After a second look at the RAM retainer, it's not so much as scorched as I thought, could be where it's say by an open window. It appeared scorched to me because the CPU retainer which is an inch way & made of the same material, looks more newer & lighter. Whether this had to do with me cleaning it up, I don't know. 

 

Will post a screenshot of it in the morning though, when there's more light, Tried taking pictures at different angles with the lighting in the home, can't see it from those. 

 

One thing that I forgot to mention in my posts above, was that I attempted to get it to run cooler, by removing the hard drive cover & using a personal desk fan, pointed it at an upward angle to force cooled air from the room in. Don't know if that could have caused the moisture, but felt it best to add. For a few months, it did improve temps, but later these has jumped right back to where they were before. 

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 


#12 zingo156

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 07:49 AM

Fans don't usually cause moisture issues from what I have seen. The only way I could see it being a problem is if a spill happend on the fan and then water was blown directly into the computer. It could have been some type of oil I suppose, I have never seen moisture in a computer that wasn't spilled on so I can't say for certain what that could have been.


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#13 cat1092

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:09 PM

I didn't get to check out the computer out further today, had a lot going on. I'm hoping to get to some of the other things you mentioned done soon. Am going to remove the MB, so that I can check all of the wires in the computer for fraying (can't overlook this), there's always a chance that something could be causing a short. These wires has virtually no slack in them, not good for the wiring, and tight around sharp places. Not good, what's the cost of a few more inches of wiring?

 

It would be fantastic to have an official HP rep as a member of this forum, to address these issues, why they mysteriously die after warranty is gone. Based on what I can see of the build, this unit wasn't designed to last 10 years, maybe until the next Windows version is released. Which is precisely what happened. 

 

HP is also known for not releasing new drivers for printers for newly released OS's. For example, those that are Windows Vista/7 certified, has no Windows 8 support, instead relying on Microsoft's basic print & scan drivers. That's shabby customer service & I'm not biased here, just calling it the way it is. HP wants it's customers to purchase the needed components for an entire system (computer & printer) with every new Windows release. 

 

Which is why I went back to my old trusted brand in Dell last year, at least they upgrade drivers & keeps these posted on their site for 10+ years. HP didn't provide a single hardware update for that PC, though I knew that the graphics, SB, sound, wireless, ethernet & JMicron drivers had all updated several times in the three years it was working. There were a couple of software upgrades, one for Light Scribe, which I never used, and one to the HP Support Assistant itself, that was it. 

 

I also know that a BIOS upgrade was available, but it wasn't free. On the other hand, this Dell that I'm on, has had three BIOS upgrades offered in the 11 months I had it (I only accepted the last, as it addressed an issue I had), and all of the other drivers has been upgraded once, every last one of them. The wireless driver doubled max wireless performance, from 72MB/sec to 144MB/sec (though I can attain neither), but still, it's the thought, customers complained, Dell answered by providing solutions, not hot air. 

 

HP wants to keep it's customers enslaved to them by the continued need to purchase new computers & peripherals. No, that's not my cup of tea. I still have a Dell 720 Photo printer, designed for XP/Windows 2000, that works on Windows 8.1 (via Vista drivers installed in Compatibility mode). It's 10 years old, cost $5 brand new shipped (new sealed surplus found in office closet) & still going. But it's not my main printer anymore, the Kodak 3250 in my specs is. The 720 ink refills are getting too costly to continue to use, but I do like to test it on each new Windows release. 

 

Cat


Edited by cat1092, 10 September 2014 - 11:25 PM.

Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 


#14 zingo156

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 07:27 AM

Dell is a brand that I often recommend myself. They do have a better track record from my experience in the retail world. HP has some issues with hardware no doubts there. It seems that all manufacturers are cheaping out on parts these days. I have always built all of my machines myself so I can use parts that I feel will last, add a few fans and that helps a bit for lifespan.

 

One simple computer that still suprises me is this: http://tech.madcatsden.com/Resources/DCSE/Desktops/Dimension/4700/productpositioning.htm

 

Anyone who works in retail probably still sees many people using these bringing them in with virus's or random other software related issues. I can not recall seeing even 1 hardware issue outside of the standard failed hard drive with those older dell desktops, I am sure it happens but seeing ~3 a week for 5 years with no failures is pretty good! Those computers are ancient and still going. That is what retailers should try to do.


Edited by zingo156, 11 September 2014 - 07:27 AM.

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#15 cat1092

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 01:32 AM

There are many Dell Dimensions still in use, not only the 4700, but some of the lower spec ones too. I have a Dimension 2400 sitting in the closet, it's been there since my XPS 8700 has arrived. Wasted a lot of cash in trying to make it better, likely enough to buy both a MB & the LCD Inverter for the HP. That inverter alone is $20. 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331173031038?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I've cleaned infections & swapped HDD's on several of these & a couple of times, added a drive for Data/backup. There's a place on these to attach a 2nd HDD, one simply needs the bay. These are found on eBay for $5-6 or so, oftentimes with screws included. Don't know why these weren't included to begin with. 

 

Cat


Performing full disc images weekly and keeping important data off of the 'C' drive as generated can be the best defence against Malware/Ransomware attacks, as well as a wide range of other issues. 





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