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Should US States be permitted to secede?


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#1 Andrew

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:43 PM

The Whitehouse website has, for some time now, had a system where citizens could submit, and add their support to, petitions directly to the Executive branch. Petitions receiving enough support (25,000 signatures) are supposed to get a direct response from the administration (if not directly from the President.) These petitions have no legal standing whatsoever, but are an interesting extension of participatory democracy into the digital realm.

Now, after the Presidential election last week, people from all 50 states (and GA and SC twice) have submitted petitions to be allowed to secede from the Union. The petition from Texas has garnered over 100,000 signatures. Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, and Georgia also have petitions which meet the official-response-threshold.

So, my question is: if the governments of these states put forward an actual secession request, should they be allowed to leave? And, if they are permitted to leave and they subsequently change their minds, would/should they be allowed to rejoin?

Further reading:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-white-house-secession-50-states-20121114,0,4408092.story
http://www.unc.edu/~ncaren/secessionists/

Edited by Andrew, 14 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.


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#2 the_patriot11

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:57 PM

Should they be allowed to leave? well, according to Lincoln, no lol but technically, there is nothing in the constition forbidding it-and I think, if the state chooses to, then yes they should be allowed to-and if they change their mind, that should be a case by case decision by the US government. That is, of course assuming the state decides to, technically, the petitions, are merely by the citizens, and theres no legal power behind them-and even if there was, even 100,000 votes is a very small population of the state of texas-for an actual secession, I would think you would need a majority vote.

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#3 Andrew

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:48 PM

My opinion echoes the_patriot's. While the Constitution does not contemplate any avenue for withdrawal, it's core principle is self-determination and self-government. So, if they truly want to leave then they should be permitted to do so.

However, the strength of our Union is that "we're all in this together, for good or ill." If states are permitted to leave and rejoin at will, then no Federal law will be enforceable: states will leave (or threaten to) until and unless they get their own way. Basically, exactly what is going on right now only with actual force of law and precedent. This would doom the entire country and must not be allowed.

If a state elects to withdraw from the Union, they must not be guaranteed re-entry. They must go through precisely the same steps to apply for statehood as all but the original 13 have had to do: they would first become a non-State US territory (similar to Puerto Rico, no Federal representation, can't vote in national elections, but also no Federal income tax). The territorial period would give them time to draft and submit for approval a new State Constitution, which the Congress may require modification to prior to accepting (or denying) the re-entry request.

Any new state admitted after previously withdrawing would not be entitled to anything arising out of their pre-secession statehood, it would be a clean slate in every possible legal and political respect. They can leave if they want, but if they want to come back they have to start from scratch.

Edited by Andrew, 14 November 2012 - 08:52 PM.


#4 the_patriot11

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

To a point I agree with you-in the past the strength of the union has been the fact we were in it together, that is true, but right now, if the nation goes bankrupt due to the governments spending, so does its strength-certain states may indeed be better off on their own. Though, I do fully agree with you on the coming back in-states shouldnt be allowed to use the threat of leaving as a tool-if they leave, then they leave for good, unless they go through the due process you mentioned to get back in.

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#5 Andrew

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

Certain states may indeed be better off on their own. Of these self-sufficient states, only Texas seems at all interested in actually seceding.

#6 Queen-Evie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:03 PM

If states secede would we need passports to go from state to state?

I think that any who do would find out real quick that the revenue stream has dried up because Uncle would no longer give them grants and various appropriations.

#7 the_patriot11

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:17 PM

The states that do secede, would probably be better off if they worked out an agreement with other states at least as trade-for example, states such as texas, wyoming, and north dakota, which are rich in natural resources, will need some way to sell their goods-while texas can go to mexico and ND to canada, wyoming, and others, can't. So to really succeed, they would still need to be a union of sorts. And while queen, some states do indeed need government grants to make it, other states, like the ones Ive listed-can actually make it without federal existence.

To be technical though, I dont think anyone will secede-even Texas Governor Rick Perry says its unlikely the state will actually try to secede-but that he feels that the way the government is going is really a wrong path to go.

Edited by the_patriot11, 14 November 2012 - 11:19 PM.

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#8 Animal

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

If this state by state secession idea becomes a reality. I'm going in the flag business. I'll become rich adding and removing stars on per state whims. Where one sees adversity I see opportunity.

I say let them have their ways like petulant brats who don't want to play well with others. I wanna get rich. Just don't come asking for military or federal aid when the defecation hits the ventilation system. The federal government should withdraw all military equipment and training for their reserve and National Guard forces. Lets see them defend themselves then. Oh wait... Also we need to but barricades on any federally funded highways, train stations and airports. You don't want to contribute to federal systems then take them all away. No social security, education funding, etc.

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#9 Andrew

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:58 PM

Don't forget to put of a border fence between the US and the seceded states to keep out the flood of illegal immigrants.

#10 Animal

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:40 PM

New training opportunities at the FBI for law enforcement and ICE officers in the profiling of seceded state illegal residents. This has all kinds of get rich opportunities for a lot of people who remain part of the United States. What better way to boost the economy.

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#11 the_patriot11

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:10 PM

states like wyoming and texas dont need US military support, first point, theres more guns in said states then the entire US military. Second, if colorado secedes to, and they take norad, and since all the missile control systems go through cheyenne, we will no longer need US military support. Oh, and since we will have the missiles, they will have a hard time getting them from us, because of 2 rules-one is posession is 9/10ths of the law, and he with the biggest gun is the last 1/10ths, and since the seceded states will have both the posession and biggest gun, they will not need DCs tanks. :P Just thought Id throw that out there.

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#12 Andrew

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:17 PM

Texas, sure. Wyoming doesn't have the population to form a worrying army let alone resist the US forces coming to get their property back. Such a theft would not go unchallenged. The law would not be on their side, since Wyoming (in this scenario) will have renounced all protection of US law already. In absence of law, they guy with the launch codes has true possession.

Edited by Andrew, 17 November 2012 - 09:22 PM.


#13 the_patriot11

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

yes, but everyone in wyoming, has guns, and if they partnered with colorado, and since colorado has the launch codes, they would be safe. For that matter, what you dont know, is all the control wires go through the air force base in cheyenne-as long as wyoming was smart about it, they could obtain the controls for all the missiles, and therefore have the launch codes by default lol.

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#14 the_patriot11

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

not that im convinced a lot of people in wyoming are smart enough to do that, unfortunatly. like most states, lot of idiots here to. . .

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#15 Andrew

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

It wouldn't matter if Colorado joined. The United States could not abide another nuclear-armed state in the Western Hemisphere. Period. Look at the Cuban Missile Crisis if you don't believe me. Any state wishing to peacefully secede would have to surrender all US Government property (the moveable stuff, at least) otherwise it would not be peaceful. It would be an act of war. And no matter how many guns there are, there are only limited numbers of hands to hold them. A state seceding without relinquishing these properties would bring about their own eventual destruction at the hands of their former friends.

Edited by Andrew, 17 November 2012 - 09:45 PM.





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