Jump to content


 


Register a free account to unlock additional features at BleepingComputer.com
Welcome to BleepingComputer, a free community where people like yourself come together to discuss and learn how to use their computers. Using the site is easy and fun. As a guest, you can browse and view the various discussions in the forums, but can not create a new topic or reply to an existing one unless you are logged in. Other benefits of registering an account are subscribing to topics and forums, creating a blog, and having no ads shown anywhere on the site.


Click here to Register a free account now! or read our Welcome Guide to learn how to use this site.

Photo

If some .net programmers could give me their thoughts on writing programs via a text editor VS. using an IDE like Visual Studio 2010, I'd appreciate i


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 chromebuster

chromebuster

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:05 PM

Hello all,
I'm in the process of learning the C# language following the book by Wrox "Beginning C# 2010". I like how it teaches you how to program using VS 2010 yet how it also exposes you to the VS-generated code, yet it puts this code in a good light in that all of the generated files given by VS 2010 are there to help you rather than hinder you. (I believe that these files keep you organized). I'm on the programming blind mailing list, the more often that not, the war starts up around the topic of VS 2010 VS. the text editors, and so many on that list like using text editors because they say that using an IDE does these things:
takes control away from the programmer
clutters up your project with unneeded files
shields you from code that you should know how to write yourself rather than have it autogenerated
takes the compiler knowledge away from the programmer because all they do is run the program from the IDE with no knowledge of how the compilation and linking process works
I'd love to know if you feel this way, and reasons why you'd vote for using an IDE over a text editor, or vice versa. I prefer the IDE because no one in their right mind would want to fool with the layout of a form in code, now would they? Or does that make me lazy? If I weere to learn the command line compiler so that I could use it to supplement VS 2010, where and when is it appropriate to use it? Thanks for any feedback you have.

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge


BC AdBot (Login to Remove)

 


#2 groovicus

groovicus

  • Security Colleague
  • 9,963 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Centerville, SD
  • Local time:03:58 AM

Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:52 AM

In a production environment, you are going to be expected to be able to use whatever tools necessary to quickly and accurately write code. When writing new php, html, or javascript, I use a text editor because an IDE will not really help me much. When debugging I use an IDE because it helps me figure out what chunks of code belong together. Our code base is messy, with javascript, html, and php all intermingled and poorly formatted. I can use features of the ide to do code folding to hide stuff I don't want to see, as well as version control.

When I do flash, c#, c++, Java, etc., I use an IDE because I don't need to take the time to have to put together the necessary supporting files such as build scripts.

If you want to learn to compile from the command line, then do it. Chances are that you will never be required to do so in the 'real' world.

#3 Didier Stevens

Didier Stevens

  • BC Advisor
  • 2,752 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:58 AM

Posted 28 August 2011 - 03:43 PM

Hello all,
I'm in the process of learning the C# language following the book by Wrox "Beginning C# 2010".


I'm wondering if you are learning C# and the .NET framework, or if you are already familiar with the .NET framework via another language, VB maybe?

Didier Stevens
http://blog.DidierStevens.com
http://DidierStevensLabs.com

SANS ISC Senior Handler
Microsoft MVP 2011-2016 Consumer Security, Windows Insider MVP 2016-2019
MVP_Horizontal_BlueOnly.png

 

If you send me messages, per Bleeping Computer's Forum policy, I will not engage in a conversation, but try to answer your question in the relevant forum post. If you don't want this, don't send me messages.

 

Stevens' law: "As an online security discussion grows longer, the probability of a reference to BadUSB approaches 1.0"


#4 chromebuster

chromebuster
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:20 PM

Thank you very much for the feedback. And to answer your question, no, C# is my first language. I really enjoy it, and since I don't plan on making money in a business environment (open source is where I belong where there are no deadlines and no bosses. I have administration for professional life), I plan to learn as much of the .net framework as I can (and maybe even create some extensions for it among other types of apps. But mostly I'm thinking of programming because of the community my friends and I run. I want all of our stuff to be custom managed, and then there are some open source projects that need more C# knowledgeable people. (that is, if the cloud industry doesn't knock down the prospect of on-premises solutions completely, but that is a whole other debate). But the basic war that goes on amongst the blind is that some of them say that since we are blind and we need total control of our controls, placement of elements, and other references, then doing it in code is the only way to accomplish that task without the help of sighted individuals. Then you have those who do not mind using what Vs 2010 has to offer. I'm mostly concerned with .net though, and why anyone would want to use anything but VS 2010 or SharpDevelop. Like for instance, this guy on the list is a developer of free and open source development aps and libraries optimized for the blind, and he says "all development can be done with only a text editor and the command line. No IDE is required." The use of the word required in that way seems to imply that IDEs are a bad thing for blind programmers; professionals and open source driven alike. And then somebody tried to use visual studio 2010 to develop using his library, and then he says that the reason for their errors (for that is all that person got when trying to manipulate it), that the error was caused because he was not using the command line compiler. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. What about you guys?

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge


#5 Didier Stevens

Didier Stevens

  • BC Advisor
  • 2,752 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:58 AM

Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:18 AM

If you're just starting with .NET, I recommend you use the IDE and let it handle some of the abstraction for you.
When you've progresses enough, you can have a look at what the IDE is autogenerating, and then maybe decide to use the compile in stead of the IDE.

Don't make your learning curve too steep.

Didier Stevens
http://blog.DidierStevens.com
http://DidierStevensLabs.com

SANS ISC Senior Handler
Microsoft MVP 2011-2016 Consumer Security, Windows Insider MVP 2016-2019
MVP_Horizontal_BlueOnly.png

 

If you send me messages, per Bleeping Computer's Forum policy, I will not engage in a conversation, but try to answer your question in the relevant forum post. If you don't want this, don't send me messages.

 

Stevens' law: "As an online security discussion grows longer, the probability of a reference to BadUSB approaches 1.0"


#6 chromebuster

chromebuster
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:43 AM

Thanks. My thing for learning the compiler is more so that I can be free to include unsafe code in my applications once I learn how that works (because to my knowledge, VS 2010 cannot compile unsafe code, and for that, it is required to use the command line). Please correct me if I am wrong.

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge


#7 Didier Stevens

Didier Stevens

  • BC Advisor
  • 2,752 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:58 AM

Posted 29 August 2011 - 09:29 AM

I don't think, so, but what do you actually mean with unsafe code?

Didier Stevens
http://blog.DidierStevens.com
http://DidierStevensLabs.com

SANS ISC Senior Handler
Microsoft MVP 2011-2016 Consumer Security, Windows Insider MVP 2016-2019
MVP_Horizontal_BlueOnly.png

 

If you send me messages, per Bleeping Computer's Forum policy, I will not engage in a conversation, but try to answer your question in the relevant forum post. If you don't want this, don't send me messages.

 

Stevens' law: "As an online security discussion grows longer, the probability of a reference to BadUSB approaches 1.0"


#8 chromebuster

chromebuster
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 29 August 2011 - 03:28 PM

I mean being able to use things like PInvoke and things like that. Pointers and such.

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge


#9 Didier Stevens

Didier Stevens

  • BC Advisor
  • 2,752 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:10:58 AM

Posted 29 August 2011 - 04:30 PM

OK, now I understand. You can use PInvoke from the IDE.

Didier Stevens
http://blog.DidierStevens.com
http://DidierStevensLabs.com

SANS ISC Senior Handler
Microsoft MVP 2011-2016 Consumer Security, Windows Insider MVP 2016-2019
MVP_Horizontal_BlueOnly.png

 

If you send me messages, per Bleeping Computer's Forum policy, I will not engage in a conversation, but try to answer your question in the relevant forum post. If you don't want this, don't send me messages.

 

Stevens' law: "As an online security discussion grows longer, the probability of a reference to BadUSB approaches 1.0"


#10 ident

ident

  • Members
  • 109 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cambridge
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:51 AM

A great quote that i was told and it sort of fits in here,

"A programming language is low level when its programs require attention to the irrelevant."

When VISUAL BASIC first come onto the scene it allowed you to forget about silly niggling detail and quite rightly grew in enormous popularity. As a programmer it turns out you can write a lot more and better quality of code because you can focus on what you are actually doing and not having to worry about how it is doing it.

Off topic, Great choice in going with wrox. I been a buyer with them since 1997(was 12) when i started learning HTML

#11 chromebuster

chromebuster
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 October 2011 - 09:01 AM

I like that. I like learning about the .net framework, but I think where this question mostly comes from is how blind users tell me that since an IDE does some of the work for them, they do not have complete control anymore of the code they write. And why then do most computer science classes teach you languages and have you code them by hand? Why aren't you allowed to use an IDE in a computer science class? I took one, and never mind an IDE, but I wasn't even allowed to use Windows 7!

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge


#12 ident

ident

  • Members
  • 109 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cambridge
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 October 2011 - 09:30 AM

I cant answer about the computer science classes but at a guess i would say the same reason with my job. I am a carpenter. You learn the correct way and then as time goes on learn how to cut corners.

#13 chromebuster

chromebuster
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 October 2011 - 11:59 AM

It sounds like you are saying that using an IDE is cutting a corner LOL. But that class wasn't on .net anyway either, so that might have had something or two to do with it.

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge


#14 ident

ident

  • Members
  • 109 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cambridge
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:09 PM

You missed the point. I will rephrase my post. "they wont you to learn from the ground up"

#15 chromebuster

chromebuster
  • Topic Starter

  • Members
  • 899 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:the crazy city of Boston, In the North East reaches of New England
  • Local time:05:58 AM

Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:46 PM

LOL. Thanks. Yeah, maybe I did. I'm not good at making or receiving points.

The AccessCop Network is just me and my crew. 

Some call me The Queen of Cambridge





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users