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The Anti-virus Software Makers Are Behind Viruses.


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#1 joeyblong

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:02 AM

Why wouldn't they be? It's a great make-work project. It would ensure their longevity in that, because of the unending threats, people would have to keep updating their products forever.

Think about it.

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#2 acklan

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 11:06 AM

I think the flaw in that would be if AV was never up to date with the new threats why would people purchase thier products?
It's easy to knock a B52 bomber out the sky. You can see it coming hundreds of miles away. The suicide bomber is harder to detect because the payload is coming, inside a vehicle that you are use to seeing. If you shut down all the possible carriers then you might as will shut down the entire road (internet).
Like car bombers, virus/malware is here to stay.

IMHO
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#3 Animal

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 11:14 PM

Why wouldn't they be? It's a great make-work project. It would ensure their longevity in that, because of the unending threats, people would have to keep updating their products forever.

Think about it.



Hmmm, Interesting viewpoint. So with that rationale. One could surmise that, the auto makers are behind the alcohol industry so that more drunk drivers are on the road causing accidents. Therefore creating a fresh market for auto sales, and continue selling newer more expensive models. However just like viruses, you're not quite sure just how destructive the end result will be..... :thumbsup:

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#4 joeyblong

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 10:23 AM

Hmmm, Interesting viewpoint. So with that rationale. One could surmise that, the auto makers are behind the alcohol industry so that more drunk drivers are on the road causing accidents -- THIS IS WHAT ONE WOULD CALL A FALSE ANALOGY. DRUNKEN DRIVING ACCIDENTS ARE RELATIVELY RARE, PERHAPS ONE PER HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. THAT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORTH THE AUTOMAKERS' TIME. --. Therefore creating a fresh market for auto sales, and continue selling newer more expensive models. However just like viruses, you're not quite sure just how destructive the end result will be -- OF COURSE, THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO CREATE SOMETHING SO DEVASTATING IT DESTROYED EVERYBODY'S COMPUTERS. THEN, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'D BE NO FURTHER NEED FOR THEIR PRODUCT. SORT OF LIKE ATOM BOMBS. THEY MAKE THE MANUFACTURERS A LOT OF MONEY BUT THEIR VERY USE DICTATES THAT NO MORE ATOM BOMBS WILL EVER BE NEEDED AGAIN. -- .....

I DO KNOW ONE THING FOR SURE ABOUT MCAFEE. IF YOU DECLINE TO CONTINUE YOUR "SUBSCRIPTION" WITH THEM, YOU'LL NOT ONLY BE BOMBARDED WITH NAG SCREENS THAT POP UP MORE AND MORE FREQUENTLY OVER TIME, BUT THEIR SOFTWARE WILL BEGIN AFFECTING YOUR NT-ONLINE SCANNER SO THAT YOU HAVE TO WAIT 10 OR 15 MINUTES TO USE YOUR (OWN -- AS IN YOUR OWN PROPERTY) COMPUTER. AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE MCAFEE'S AFFECTING IN YOUR COMPUTER. WHAT GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO DO THIS? IN ANY OTHER FIELD, THAT WOULD SMACK OF COERSION TO BUY THEIR PRODUCT. SO, BACK TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTION, IF THEY'RE THIS UNETHICAL, WHY WOULDN'T THEY CREATE VIRUSES SO PEOPLE HAVE TO BUY, AND UPGRADE, THEIR PRODUCT?

HMM?

#5 acklan

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 10:42 AM

All capital letters usually denotes YELLING!!! Please do not yell. It is impolite.
I do like your theory, as far as making me think. This type of debate is better suited for "The Speak Easy" Forum, in the " Gerenal Category".

Edited by acklan, 20 December 2005 - 05:50 PM.

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#6 joeyblong

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 11:22 AM

Good thinging.

#7 yano

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 04:52 PM

Your first quote does make sense. If Anti-Virus products were ahead of the viruses then why would there be a need to buy them or update them? What if there was an anti-virus that bocks everything? Then it would always be ahead of the viruses.

#8 acklan

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 05:50 PM

Good thinging.

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#9 phawgg

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 07:37 PM

It has been my experience that supply & demand to a large degree establishes value.
Both sides of the spyware issue would seem to fall into at best an ackward co-dependence.

They both create value out of the internet.
Money.

hmmm
:thumbsup:
patiently patrolling, plenty of persisant pests n' problems ...

#10 Papakid

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 02:50 AM

I've had this thought before in my more paranoid moments. And i like a good conspiracy theory. Most of them don't hold water but I like the thinking that all things are possible.

But I think your reasoning is faulty.

First take this quote from a Lenny Bruce routine, slightly paraphrased:

"These guys are like men such as Jonas Salk, Lenny Bruce and J. Edgar Hoover. These men thrive upon the continuance of disease, segregation, and violence. The purity they do profess a need for, they just feed upon.

Without Polio, Salk is a putz"

Now that may sound like a justification for your contention, but the point is, did Salk create Polio? Was there no crime before there was a police force?

I DO KNOW ONE THING FOR SURE ABOUT MCAFEE. IF YOU DECLINE TO CONTINUE YOUR "SUBSCRIPTION" WITH THEM, YOU'LL NOT ONLY BE BOMBARDED WITH NAG SCREENS THAT POP UP MORE AND MORE FREQUENTLY OVER TIME, BUT THEIR SOFTWARE WILL BEGIN AFFECTING YOUR NT-ONLINE SCANNER SO THAT YOU HAVE TO WAIT 10 OR 15 MINUTES TO USE YOUR (OWN -- AS IN YOUR OWN PROPERTY) COMPUTER. AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE MCAFEE'S AFFECTING IN YOUR COMPUTER. WHAT GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO DO THIS? IN ANY OTHER FIELD, THAT WOULD SMACK OF COERSION TO BUY THEIR PRODUCT. SO, BACK TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTION, IF THEY'RE THIS UNETHICAL, WHY WOULDN'T THEY CREATE VIRUSES SO PEOPLE HAVE TO BUY, AND UPGRADE, THEIR PRODUCT?

First, if you don't want McAfee to nag you uninstall it and use something else. And you can't say they are unethical to remind to of the need to resubscribe so you can get the latest definitions for it to work effectively. If you aren't going to run it as it is designed to be run, why have it on your system? It's like saying a car is unethical because it won't take you to the store because you refuse to put gas in it. And the gas gauge has a blinking light that bothers you.

You don't have to buy or upgrade their product. You can walk to the store in the rain if you want. There are free AV's (borrow someone's car) and you can always refuse to upgrade (drive to the store on a flat tire and never change the oil).

And when you say 'they create viruses", do mean all the AV companies or just McAfee?

If all the AV companies, that would mean they are all in colusion with each other. That can't be true because not all AV's will fix every infection. IOW, every virus would get fixed by every AV, and that just doesn't happen. Besides that, a single virus can have several names, depending on which AV vendor is talking.

If all the AV vendors were in collusion there wouldn't be any competition.

If only McAfee is creating viruses, then they would be the only ones to know how to fix every virus and there would be no gap between the time the virus came out and their definitions for it.

Now I don't like how the big companies, like McAfee and Norton require payment for upgrading the program every year. But that pratice is not limited to AV companies. Most commercial software require payment for version upgrades and the improvement you get from that. But that's driven by competition and, yeah, greed and they don't need to create a need for the product (in this case a virus) to do that.

Bottom line--after dealing with malware and observing HijackThis logs for years now, I can assure you that AV companies are constantly scrambling to keep up with the malware writers, not the other way around. The malware writers are getting very sophisticated, changing the parameters of infections (and thus the definitions needed to fix them) constantly so that it is almost like there is a different virus for each infected machine.

I'm more concerned that AV software can't fix enough viruses (I see this in logs all the time) instead of that they are creating viruses so you have to use their product to fix it.

The thing about people

is they change

when they walk away.--Mipso


#11 joeyblong

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 02:44 PM

I've had this thought before in my more paranoid moments -- WHY TO WOMEN ALWAYS HAVE TO INJECT SARCASM? IT ONLY ESCALATES THE SITUATION. -- . And i like a good conspiracy theory "WHAT GOOD FORTUNE FOR THE GOVERNMENT THAT PEOPLE DO NOT THINK." -- ADOLPH HITLER. HE WAS REFERRING TO PEOPLE LIKE THIS ONE WHO BRUSH ASIDE ALL CRITICISM OF AUTHORITY WITH A SEEMINGLY "INTELLIGENT" QUIP. -- . Most of them -- LIKE WHICH ONES? EMAIL ME. OF COURSE, WE BOTH KNOW YOU CAN'T EXPAND ON THIS SUBJECT. -- don't hold water but I like the thinking -- IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL IT? -- that all things are possible.

But I think your reasoning is faulty -- NOW, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PROVE IT. -- .

First take this quote from a Lenny Bruce routine, slightly paraphrased:

"These guys are like men such as Jonas Salk, Lenny Bruce and J. Edgar Hoover. These men thrive upon the continuance of disease, segregation, and violence. The purity they do profess a need for, they just feed upon.

Without Polio, Salk is a putz"

Now that may sound like a justification for your contention, but the point is, did Salk create Polio? Was there no crime before there was a police force -- THESE ARE VERY GOOD NON-POINTS. -- ?

First, if you don't want McAfee to nag you uninstall it -- I'VE HAD BAD EXPERIENCE UNINSTALLING MAJOR SOFTWARE. REAL, NEOPLANET, AND MANY OTHERS SEEM TO TAKE SOME OF YOUR SHARED FILES WHEN THEY GO. THEY'RE DESIGNED THAT WAY, IT CAN'T JUST BE AN ACCIDENT -- . and use something else -- UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE FAMILIAR WITH THE REAL WORLD KNOW THAT THERE IS A LOT OF COLLUSION BETWEEN VARIOUS "COMPETITORS". THAT'S WHAT PRICE FIXING WAS ALL ABOUT. AND CREATING AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE, NO MATTER WHAT COMPANY A PERSON TURNS TO, HE IS NOT GUARANTEED ANY BETTER SERVICE OR QUALITY, IS THE EQUIVALENT OF PRICE FIXING. -- . And you can't say they are unethical -- THEIR METHODS ARE UNETHICAL. YOU SEEMED TO HAVE MISSED THAT IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS. IF I DON'T RE-SUBSCRIBE THEY DO THINGS TO MY COMPUTER. THAT'S COERCION. OR WOULD YOU HAVE ME BELIEVE IT IS ALL JUST A COINCIDENCE? THAT'S EVEN MORE FARFETCHED THAN THE "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" YOU RIDICULE. -- to remind to of the need to resubscribe so you can get the latest definitions for it to work effectively. If you aren't going to run it as it is designed to be run, why have it on your system? -- REFER TO MY EARLIER COMMENT. -- It's like saying a car is unethical because it won't take you to the store because you refuse to put gas in it -- I'M GLAD YOUPRE POSTURING AS THOUGH YOU'RE SOME TYPE OF INTELLECTUAL GENIUS. THIS COMPARISON IS COMPLETELY BOGUS. -- . And the gas gauge has a blinking light that bothers you.

You don't have to buy or upgrade their product. You can walk to the store in the rain if you want. There are free AV's (borrow someone's car) and you can always refuse to upgrade (drive to the store on a flat tire and never change the oil) -- WOMEN ALSO LIKE TO BE CONDESCENDING. -- .

And when you say 'they create viruses", do mean all the AV companies or just McAfee -- YOU STILL HAVEN'T CONVINCED ME THAT THEY WOULDN'T DO THIS. -- ?

If all the AV companies, that would mean they are all in colusion with each other. That can't be true because not all AV's will fix every infection. IOW, every virus would get fixed by every AV, and that just doesn't happen. Besides that, a single virus can have several names, depending on which AV vendor is talking.

If all the AV vendors were in collusion there wouldn't be any competition -- WHAT ABOUT PRICE FIXING? THIS WAS A CONSPIRACY BETWEEN "COMPETITORS." -- .

If only McAfee is creating viruses, then they would be the only ones to know how to fix every virus and there would be no gap between the time the virus came out and their definitions for it -- NOW, YOU'RE GOING OFF THE DEEP END. -- .

Now I don't like how the big companies, like McAfee and Norton require payment for upgrading the program every year. But that pratice is not limited to AV companies -- SO WE'LL EXCLUDE THEM FROM THIS FORUM. AGREED? -- . Most commercial software require payment for version upgrades and the improvement you get from that. But that's driven by competition and, yeah, greed and they don't need to create a need for the product (in this case a virus) to do that -- BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. TOTALLY BESIDE THE POINT. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE POINT IS? -- .

Bottom line--after dealing with malware and observing HijackThis logs for years now, I can assure you that AV companies are constantly scrambling to keep up with the malware writers, not the other way around -- I DON'T BELIEVE THIS. -- . The malware writers are getting very sophisticated -- WHO'S UNDERWRITING THEM? THEY DO THIS FOR FREE? -- , changing the parameters of infections (and thus the definitions needed to fix them) constantly so that it is almost like there is a different virus for each infected machine.

I'm more concerned that AV software can't fix enough viruses (I see this in logs all the time) instead of that they are creating viruses so you have to use their product to fix it.

So what about the NT-Online Scanner problem? My computer hangs up for progressively longer and longer periods of time. I now have to wait about 15 minutes before I can do anything. And, of course, I know it's directly caused by McAfee because MS tells me so.

#12 Scarlett

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 09:34 PM

:thumbsup:

All capital letters usually denotes YELLING!!! Please do not yell. It is impolite.
I do like your theory, as far as making me think. This type of debate is better suited for "The Speak Easy" Forum, in the " Gerenal Category".


I'm sure that I and everyone else understands your frustration.
But....A proper discussion is to be done in a civilized manner.
Not in the form of a one sided scream fest.
Your posts have become inflammatory.
Please refer to rule #8 here


Maybe you should channel your energy in a more positive direction and post your problems/concerns in the appropriate forum.

~ Scarlett - Forum Mod

Edited by Scarlett, 21 December 2005 - 09:35 PM.

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