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Standarad language and it's use


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#1 HelpINeedHelp

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:34 PM

I, as a person, take a lot of pride in my language. I avoid words like "gonna" or "ain't". I have seen teachers use colloquialisms. If schools make the use of Standard English mandatory, why do they let teachers use these words! If they don't want kids to use these words, adults should not either! It really ticks me off! Whenever I talk to a friend of family member and hear them use a colloquialism, it drives me nuts! Sometimes I correct them! I even think colloquialisms help prevent kids from learning good language! Go to a school and hear many kids read a book. Books are written in standard language, and when kids read these books they often have trouble pronouncing the words. It's not uncommon to see a teacher have to help them! However, when they are just using their slang, they can just communicate just fine. That really disturbs me. Anyone else annoyed by the use of colloquialisms?

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#2 Condobloke

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:17 PM

G'day,...(I am Australian.....you will just have to forgive my opening salutation ! ).......I agree wholeheartedly. It is called the line of least resistance, or, the easy way out. It is easier to mispronounce or use a colloquialism than it is to use the correct term/word. The need to appear 'cool' also drives the use of colloquialisms
The continual 'dumbing down' of our society will inevitably come back to haunt us.
My mothers dislike of,dontcha, wontcha, cantcha, etc may seem a little tame compared to some of the language misuse today !!

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#3 Queen-Evie

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:20 PM

I have to disagree with y'all to an extent. I'm a GRITS and proud of it. (google if you don't know what that is)

We have a very unique way of talking and I embrace that way. I drop my g's, as in I'm gonna go shoppin'. Sometimes ain't slips out and I don't think anything of it. If someone is offended or doesn't like the way I talk, it's their problem to deal with, not mine.

I say will ya, can ya, dontcha, etc. because that is our way. That does not mean we in the South are backwards uneducated buffoons.

Regional differences in language make us who we are. It doesn't matter what country one lives in because they all have their various language differences.

Y'all got ta excuse me now, I'm fixin' to go git towels outa the dryer.

#4 Condobloke

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:57 PM

G'day again !....I actually agree with you Queen-Evie !!...It is when it becomes apparent, that there are those within YOUR region/culture who are using language that attempts to alter the norm which you have grown used to over the years, that letters complaining of colloquialism and misuse of 'the language' come to the fore.......in other words if a section of your people in the South began to use a style of language that was foreign to YOU.......when they spoke it jarred your senses....made you feel uncomfortable etc
I am from Australian....and Aussies are known for their ability to 'mangle' any language on earth....we also have unique characteristics in our spoken word.....eg. G'day Mate.....is even said to women !!......calling a woman 'mate' in India,for example, will just about get you hung!! We of the older generation in Australia frown on the language style of some of our younger people, because it is not the 'norm'....according to our region..
I abhor the use of the term 'buddy' being used to address me.......call me mate....and i have no problem....use the American term buddy, and I begin to boil.
So....you bunch of boofheads will just have to excuse me......I am heading for a cuppa and a bite with the missus out on the v'randah

Condobloke ...Outback Australian  fed up with Windows antics...??....LINUX IS THE ANSWER....I USE LINUX MINT 18.3  EXCLUSIVELY.

“A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it."

It has been said that time heals all wounds. I don't agree. The wounds remain. Time - the mind, protecting its sanity - covers them with some scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone. Rose Kennedy

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#5 the_patriot11

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:18 PM

I see the place for proper english, and your right they should teach it in school-in many circles, proper english is a must. In others though its not. In my career field, if I used proper english everyone would think I was a bit off. . .I use words like ain't all the time, and have no problem with it. Yes, I know how to speak proper english, no I dont, in my area using words like that is normal and its part of who I am-I will not apologize for that.

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#6 coles1mom

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 10:28 PM

I love Dr. Seuss books. Proper grammar, no, but it sure does help children enjoy reading. I don't believe it causes any language issues either. Isn't kid a colloquialism for child? :wink:
We all know how to speak but we keep our roots in the process.

#7 Queen-Evie

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 10:46 AM

1) WHO is going to sit in a classroom to monitor how teachers speak? As long as the children in the classroom understand what the teacher is saying they are learning. Teachers are just like everyone else-the way they speak is dictated by their culture, where they grew up, what they heard others saying. Don't stop at colloquialisms. Keep going to include the way words are pronounced. Different regions have their own unique way of pronouncing words. Example the word route. In the south, it is generally pronounced
rout (out). Other areas pronounce it root. One of my children had a wonderful 4th grade teacher who grew up in a northern state. She said ROOT. Only 1 child in the class knew what she was referring to. The way to teach children is using language they understand. Because of various factors, there is no such thing as standard spoken English. I don't tell people from Boston they are wrong when they drop R's (pahking cahs), so don't tell me I am wrong in the way I speak.

I can and do adapt HOW I speak depending on WHO I am around at the time. With family, my southern country roots come out big time. With other people not so much. It's something I do without thinking about it, it just happens. When I speak, to me it feels natural. If I were to say "I am going to the grocery store. Do you want to go with me?" would be UN-natural to me. Natural and comfortable is "I'm gonna go to the grocery store" or "I'm goin' to the store, do you wanna go with me?"


" 'Everybody says words different,' said Ivy. 'Arkansas folks says 'em different, and Oklahomy folks says 'em different. And we seen a lady from Massachusetts, an' she said 'em different of all. Couldn't hardly make out what she was sayin'!' "

John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath, 1939



2) If you corrected me, I would tell you "bless your heart (a southern phrase) go stick your head in a bucket of cement". When you correct people, your intentions may be good, but you make them feel dumb, stupid, and ignorant because they don't fit in the mold you want them to fit in. People will speak what they know, and you are not going to change them. A superior attitude doesn't go over well with me.

3) Yes I have been in a classroom and listened to children reading. You make it sound as if all children have trouble pronouncing words. Some will and some won't. A good teacher will help those who cannot. And some of those may have some sort of reading disability which makes it hard for them. Don't judge the children because you cannot look at a child and know for certain why they cannot pronounce words. A reading specialist can be called in to help these children if necessary.

4) I do agree that proper English is a must in life. In a lot of situations, how people speak will have a big impact on their future. A job interview is a good example. Employers will, a lot of times, judge by how someone speaks. If a job requires a lot of writing, proper grammer is a must. Actually, it doesn't matter what language a person speaks-it also will have proper grammer.

My pet peeve is not how people speak to me. It's how they write. With the advent of computers and computer-ese, it has gotten worse. I get emails, text messages, and see forum posts that are full of computer shorthand. I know teachers who have complained that students turn in papers written in that style. THIS is the reality of what teachers have to deal with and I am in favor of them correcting those who turn in papers written in that style. A teacher friend of mine showed me something submitted on a test by a student. The answer was in response to famous lines by Shakespere:

2 b or not 2 b that is the ?

"i have a problem wit my puter can u help me wit it i had it 4 a week an no1 has told me wut 2 do 2 solve it can any1 help i would b 4ever gr8ful"

I once gave an "award" to the longest sentence I have ever seen in a forum (not here at BC). It was a very long post with no punctuation, containing computer shorthand and no capital letters for things which should have been capitalized. It was just one long drawn-out hard-to-understand and make-sense- of post.

Now that I have edited my post, I gotta get me a big ol' glass of sweet tea. Dontcha want one also? I got plenty to share.

Another edit to add: while colloquialisms can be one word, it more commonly refers to phrases. The words HelpINeedHelp refers to are not true colloquialisms. They are instead speech patterns.

We in the south have a lot of 'em. The teachers I know don't use them often, if ever, in the classroom. The exception would be bless your heart.

Edited by Queen-Evie, 15 February 2011 - 01:32 PM.


#8 Guest_RadioNorthsea_*

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:03 PM

I even think colloquialisms help prevent kids from learning good language! Go to a school and hear many kids read a book.



I will give my opinion on this since.
You have a point, but the problem what you have or maybe must I saying, what they have, in your country is it not only the kids that speaking or writing their language bad, the problem is also in my country.
I think and I do mean not bad, in our country there are lot of strange people they coming not out our country but for example: Morocco.
They learn our language but they learn not so good, because they got not so good education.
The teachers that must give their education in the language from the country where they lives, are in the most cases, young people and they find it not important when people from another country, learn good the language, they get the money every month.
The teachers learn them what they must know, but the people from another country learn not on that way, if we have learned.
In my country there are lot of people from another country and when you hears talk them or when you seen their message, than is it in one word, slush.

#9 Condobloke

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 05:26 PM

Hey!...RadioNorthsea,.......Well said my friend !!

Condobloke ...Outback Australian  fed up with Windows antics...??....LINUX IS THE ANSWER....I USE LINUX MINT 18.3  EXCLUSIVELY.

“A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it."

It has been said that time heals all wounds. I don't agree. The wounds remain. Time - the mind, protecting its sanity - covers them with some scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone. Rose Kennedy

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#10 BlackSpyder

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:14 PM

I really hate to rain on your parade but the use of "insert your over-sized word for Common Language" isn't ruining kids ability to read aloud. I use them all the time and read fairly well aloud when required. The porblem is in that children are being passed on to the next grade level and graduating High School with a 6th grade reading level. Children are not taught to love to read, they see it as a punishment.

We live in a country (well me and the "Bama Bell" do) that is "The Melting Pot of the World" and my guess is there are at least 50 different languages in "common" use in the USA. Many immigrants use English as a second language so, the blending of English with their First Language creates little nuances in their local dialect.

Dialects are what give language life, without dialects English would be as dead as Latin.

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#11 the_patriot11

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 08:03 PM

I couldnt have said it better blackspyder :thumbup2:

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#12 computerxpds

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 12:32 PM

Now as a 15 almost 16 year old with a good mind set, I must say that I think that the problem isn't with how the child is taught it is about whether or not the child pays attention and his/hers willing to speak correctly and learn how/when to use proper english and when not to. As a student in school I hate it when im in english and the teacher makes the students read a book or even a short article because some of the kids in my english class cannot even pronounce simple words and when they stumble it really angers me because it takes away from the whole reading. I even have gotten into the habit of ignoring the class reading aloud, just reading it in my head, getting it done much faster this way and then read it again so as to study it for the test that usually comes after we read it all. Now I must admit I dont like reading aloud but when I am told to I can read it fluently and without mispronouncing a word, even names I can pronounce with ease, it might just be me or I am just more used to pronouncing things such as names and words. But I can say that yes children now are extremely lazy some just do it to annoy people but some just plain cannot do it. But thats my opinion and yes I know this post has horrible punctuation (I never was good at formatting...)

Edited by computerxpds, 22 February 2011 - 12:33 PM.

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#13 Guest_RadioNorthsea_*

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:48 PM

What I can tell is, that in my country are schools, where you get in the class, the language of your choice and you may only speaking the strange language.
For example: You have chose for English: On Tuesday get you as student, English, you come in the class and you have the duty for speaking that language, it is forbidden that you speak Dutch.
I must saying, that I got this not, in the 60\70 years got I English and I must learn via books and tape.
That there are schools in the Netherlands where you have the duty for speaking in a strange language, the language what you have chose, is since end of the 20 th century.
Yeah the times change in a human life.
In the Usa are many difference humans they speaking the language what Americans don't understand, but also is the Usa bigger than my country, we have in the Netherlands also difference humans with another language.
But the Dutch Government made a law that when an Immigrant from as example: Turkey, come in the Netherlands with the mention, living here, that he or she learn the Dutch language.
Logical, because when I emigrated to the Usa, than I must learn English too.
I can saying, no no, I won't, I ask in my language an American, mag ik een brood van u, or kunt u mij zeggen waar ik ....... kan vinden, an English human look at me or he\she want ask me, what do you want.
I did made a long story, but with my message, try I tell, that it is very important when you lives in another country, that you can tell and write in that case, that the other do understand what you ask or tell.

#14 hamluis

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:58 PM

To all who felt compelled to respond...and to the OP:

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic79506.html

You may all continue your exchanges...in The Speak Easy :).

I suggest that you read the rules which are operative in that forum.

Louis

#15 Condobloke

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 06:30 PM

WELL...!!!!.....we have been relegated to the backblocks !!......lol
...I can handle rejection....I have been married and had kids !!!.........
Now...more seriously.....surely we must all agree that 'Standard' english is undergoing a metamorphosis......as the earths population expands, and communication (via news journals,radio,television,the Internet,and all the many and various forms used), continues to explode.......the residents of this earth ALL have an opinion....they are ALL politically activated....eg,Egypt, Tunisia, Libya etc......The "default" language is English.......and as a result these people will be spread from one corner of the earth to the other.... (please don't let this start a debate of round v square).......and English (as us older boofheads know it )....will degenerate even further.
The Melting Pot of the World" "bless your heart go stick your head in a bucket of cement" 'Everybody says words different,' said Ivy. 'Arkansas folks says 'em different, and Oklahomy folks says 'em different. And we seen a lady from Massachusetts, an' she said 'em different of all. Couldn't hardly make out what she was sayin'!' "
The melting pot has become the world !......we will no longer be able to stick our boof heads in the cement bucket.......and when it comes to bodies saying it different........"you aint heard nothin' yet" (quote..Al Jolson)

Condobloke ...Outback Australian  fed up with Windows antics...??....LINUX IS THE ANSWER....I USE LINUX MINT 18.3  EXCLUSIVELY.

“A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it."

It has been said that time heals all wounds. I don't agree. The wounds remain. Time - the mind, protecting its sanity - covers them with some scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone. Rose Kennedy

 GcnI1aH.jpg

 

 





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