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Elton John and David Furnish as parents


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18 replies to this topic

#1 janeygee

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:01 AM

I am sure there will be many mixed and strong opinions on whether it is acceptable for Elton John and David Furnish to be "Parents" , and whilst I am not homophobic I just cannot see how their actions are "Right" , or am I wrong ?
What is morally wrong can never be politically correct

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#2 Budapest

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 02:04 AM

Perhaps you could explain why you do not see their actions as "Right".
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.

—George Bernard Shaw

#3 jgweed

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 11:42 AM

If they make good parents, and care for the child in a loving manner, what makes their actions not "right"?
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#4 DSTM

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 11:50 AM

Who are we to judge?















#5 JohnCe

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 02:35 PM

Two men can have a baby. Two women can have a baby. A man and a woman can have a baby.
One of these statements is a naturally occuring act.
What happens when a child from an un-natural act gets older and wants a child themselves? Who is going to ensure that siblings don`t marry? Who knows what these children will feel like as an adult? A woman has sold her child to someone! Too many un-answered questions.
In mans history, when a society openly accepted practicing homosexual men and women, it wasn`t long before that society fell into decline! Of course this may not appear of importance to someone who desires to be modern, but the past cannot be ignored.
Regards JohnCe.

#6 janeygee

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 02:48 PM

Generally I agree with JohnCe. I am thinking really of the child, and the problems he will certainly experience when he goes to school.
The chances of the 2 guys being able to adopt a child would be zero, so how can it be OK for them to buy a child from a surrogate mother.
What is morally wrong can never be politically correct

#7 Budapest

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 04:23 PM

Surrogate mothers (or "a woman has sold her child to someone" as JohnCe put it) are not exclusively used by homosexual couples. As such, I do not think that the issue of surrogate mothers should not be used as an argument against Elton John and David Furnish.

In man's history, when a society openly accepted practising homosexual men and women, it wasn't long before that society fell into decline.

Now this is more like it. I'm not saying that I agree with this statement - but this is what the Speak Easy is all about in my opinion; thoughtful debate on potentially controversial topics. Do you have any examples of such societies? And why do you think homosexual practises led to the decline of these societies?
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.

—George Bernard Shaw

#8 Orange Blossom

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 09:46 PM

If a couple has a strong, committed, healthy relationship, I can see nothing but positives for the rearing of children in that relationship.

I would be far more concerned about a dysfunctional family unit - THOSE have serious, negative impacts on children that often last into their adult lives.

As for the question about siblings marrying - who prevents it in the case of adopted or fostered children? I would think the same principles would apply.

I will never forget the newspaper article I read some time back. A gay man had completed all the paperwork to adopt 4 orphaned children, three boys and one girl . Some guy (a foster parent) said that the girl needed maternal guidance, yada, yada, yada, and convinced the judge of that. The girl was then adopted by this guy and his wife. What happened? The creep molested the little girl.

The "gay" man was devastated. Had he been given custody as originally ordered, that little girl would not have suffered that harm, or at least not as much of it. You can read the story here; however, you have to subscribe in order to do so.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2000/04/03/news.000403_HT_A5_PJR23083.sto
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#9 JohnCe

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 04:30 PM

Janeygee was listening to her instinct when she asked if it was `right`for two men to be parents. A rare thing today!

This situation is impossible to occur in nature. It requires a third party in the `relationship` to make it possible, this is not natural.
Surrogacy, involves the `third party` in either, adultery ( accepting the sperm from a man in another relationship), or carrying a child that is not hers that requires un-natural intervention to stop her body rejecting the baby.
So surrogacy is un-natural.
The PRACTICING of homosexual acts is un-natural - it brings with it STD`s, - this does not happen in a relationship where a man and woman stay loyal to each other.
We are part of nature and will lose, if, we fight against it for too long.

Orange Blossom,
A sad story, but one that is not too unusual in these times of `me, me, me`.

Budapest,
I`m trying to stay on topic, rather than going off at a tangent as i usually do!

Regards JohnCe.

#10 Sightless

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 10:13 AM

Same-Sex parents make just as good parents as opposite-sex parents.

"Children being raised by same-gender parents, on most all of the measures that we care about, self-esteem, school performance, social adjustment and so on, seem to be doing just fine and, in most cases, are statistically indistinguishable from kids raised by married moms and dads on these measures" (from above)

I've always been against same-sex parenting. But that was only because I thought it would cause psychological harm for the children, I think that gays have every right to get married. After reading around and researching, I'm happy to say that I was wrong, the gender of the parents does not have any ill effects on the children. I do agree that they may get teased at school, and that can definitely cause problems; but with society slowly becoming more accepting of homosexuals, hopefully this teasing will be short lived. Society is slowly shifting to a more homosexual-friendly place; whether that is for better or for worse, we will see in the coming years.

Edited by Sightless, 29 January 2011 - 10:16 AM.


#11 JohnCe

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:51 AM

One 5 year study that forgets to include the likelyhood of both parents contracting aids before the child is an adult, is not evidence Sightless. Children live at least 18 years before becoming adults. Regards JohnCe.

#12 Sightless

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:29 PM

@JohnCe

To contract AIDS, one of the partners/parents has to have HIV/AIDS in the first place. Not sure if you were aware of that. I didn't know you could get AIDS just because you were having homosexual sex with a clean partner? Oh the things I learn from ignorant people.

And regarding your comment "The PRACTICING of homosexual acts is un-natural", you must not be very educated in what you are arguing. Homosexuality has been observed in animals in nature. Not lab animals, but wild, free-roaming, animals. Please do your research first. I'll happily provide a list of sources if you are so inclined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200906/gay-animals

I am not saying that a lot of animals exhibit gay behaviors, but there are definitely many cases that have been documented. Therefore homosexuality is at least some-what natural (even mutations are "natural" when not caused by environmental factors) . In humans, I believe that the environment AND genetics has something to do with sexuality. But that hasn't been 100% proven yet, it is just my belief.

"this does not happen in a relationship where a man and woman stay loyal to each other."
You seem to think that homosexuals are monsters. They get married, date, etc. They stay loyal to each other, just like heterosexuals. They also cheat on each other, just like heterosexuals. You cannot say that all heterosexuals are 100% loyal to their partner. You sound extremely naive if you do. Straights cheat, gays cheat. Straights stay loyal, gays stay loyal.

Edited by groovicus, 29 January 2011 - 02:47 PM.


#13 JohnCe

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:21 PM

I`m sorry if I appear a bit forthrite Sightless, I`m not good at typing meandering answers!
Men are far more likely to have an extra-marital affair than a woman - so a man/man relationship IS more likely to fail.
Animals are different to humans in that they are driven by instinct alone - they cannot change their behavior by choice - unlike us! And `observing` homosexual behaviour in individual animals/birds does not make that one a persistant offender or indeed natural!
Regards JohnCe.

#14 Sightless

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 02:32 PM

What's funny, is that you're completely wrong. Women are more likely to have an affair. So there goes that point in your argument
Sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/6123739/Women-more-likely-to-have-an-affair-than-men.html
http://newlyweds.about.com/od/lovesex/a/havinganaffair.htm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/relationships/man-woman/Women-more-likely-to-have-flings-than-men/articleshow/4963273.cms

So again, please do your research.

Humans cannot change ALL of their behaviors by choice. If you were straight, and wanted to become gay, could you? You could SAY that you were gay, but you wouldn't actually BE gay. It is VERY difficult to try and hold your hand on a burning hot stove, because the INSTINCT is to pull away. I don't believe in a gay gene, but I believe that with the right gene "mutation" and environmental factors, a person will be wired to be homosexual.

#15 groovicus

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 03:09 PM

In general, men are 7 percent more likely to have an affair than women.
Conservative estimates are that 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair.
25 percent of men have had extramarital affairs vs 17 percent of women.
Approximately 20-25% of men and 10-15% of women engage in extramarital sex at least once during their marriage.

So who is right, you or me? Of course I should point out that like all like all three of your links, my first two links come from less than reputable sources. However the third is from a study done by theNational Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. The 4th is from a study done by researchers affiliated with the Kinsey Institute.

It is not enough to just find random garbage to support your opinion. Anyone can do that. If you want to participate in the discussion, then make sure you have your facts together, and make sure that you vet them.

Edited by groovicus, 30 January 2011 - 12:05 PM.





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