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Abortion dilemma


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#1 groovicus

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 08:43 PM

Suppose you knew a woman with eight children. Suppose two were deaf, two were blind, and two were physically handicapped? Suppose also that she had a AIDS. Would you recommend an abortion?

I am not sure what I would recommend at this point because it would sort of depend on the circumstances of the family. Is the family wealthy enough to pay for what seems a statistically probable chance of another child with medical issues? Is the family stable enough to survive another disabled or ill child? I don't know that if she were a victim of rape or incest it would make any difference to me. I think I would recommend an abortion because it appears that the odds for having a child with medical issues are pretty high, and that if the child does have medical issues, then it doesn't seem fair to me to subject the child to a life like that.

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#2 JohnWho

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 09:38 PM

"Suppose you knew a woman with eight children. Suppose two were deaf, two were blind, and two were physically handicapped? "

That's only 6.


I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!


#3 DSTM

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 12:01 AM

I agree,Groovicus with your last post.

What happens if the Parents eventually,Die.

It's then left to the Taxpayer to contribute to this persons well being for rest of  the handicapped persons life.

I read in the UK, a mother had 3 children, all with deformaties,and she was pregnant again.

I read the reason, was her Genes.

I think thats irresponsible.




John Who.

A normal person, would take it that, the remaining 2 Children, were normal.That makes 8. :thumbsup:

Still not good odds, to have more Children















#4 the_patriot11

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 12:02 AM

I would recomend abstinence not abortion in that case animal

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#5 Animal

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 12:03 AM

I didn't post. :thumbsup:

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#6 the_patriot11

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 12:22 AM

groovicious i mean. I get all you administrators confused. . . :thumbsup: actually I was reading one of your posts in another forum and had you on the mind but meant groov sry. one of those mean one thing say another. . .

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#7 Platypus

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:40 AM

Perhaps it could give us a pointer if we ask her existing children whether they would rather have been aborted to have avoided their current medical issues?

Top 5 things that never get done:

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#8 JohnWho

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 08:37 AM

(quote name='DSTM' )
I agree,Groovicus with your last post.


John Who.

A normal person, would take it that, the remaining 2 Children, were normal.That makes 8. :thumbsup:

Still not good odds, to have more Children
(end quote)


Well, a reasonably intelligent person could wonder if Groovicus, since he always demands people be very specific, left out a portion of his description, too.



:flowers:

I would also wonder whether the children had the same father, or fathers? How much influence did the father's side have regarding the situations?


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#9 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 10:17 AM

Naw? John Who, Groovie is Cool, trust me?

#10 JohnWho

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 03:57 PM

More, we need more information:

How did she get aids? If being an irresponsible drug user or indiscriminate sex or was it from a transfusion at a hospital?

If the family is financially secure and can easily afford another child, why not?

We are "assuming", something DSTM seems to be OK with, that these are her natural born children and not adopted, just as we are assuming the other two are considered "normal".

The information regarding the father or fathers remains unanswered.

Groovicus' opinion appears based on "appears that the odds for having a child with medical issues are pretty high, and that if the child does have medical issues, then it doesn't seem fair to me to subject the child to a life like that."

There are drugs and procedures that can prevent transmission of AIDS from the mother to the baby, so it is not a certainty at all that the child will be born with any problems.

Yep, we need more information.

Edited by JohnWho, 30 January 2010 - 03:59 PM.


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#11 groovicus

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 04:36 PM

The question is purposely vague in order to explore how various circumstances affect people's decisions. How would the manner of the mother's infection change your opinion? What if it was an STD instead of AIDS? My opinion was based on how circumstances would affect my opinion.

#12 the_patriot11

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 03:18 AM

has anyone ever tried asking the unborn child? oh wait thats because you cant. I mean serious-a baby, cant make a decision for itself yet we can? in my mind, abortion is murder, pure and simple. I know thats not politically correct but thats what it is. let me just say this, arnt you glad your mother was pro life.

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#13 carri

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 05:15 AM

When I first read this question and attempted a reply, I ended up spending a long time considering the options and answers based on assumptions that could be made regarding this scenario! I started to write and edited the reply so many times that I thought this subject is clearly worth a discussion , but right then I didn't have the time I really needed. On coming back to this discussion a few days later and seeing the responses, I have decided to try to reply again with my thoughts more ordered (I hope)

Ok, this woman's circumstances are deliberately vague in order for some exploration on how various circumstances affect their decisions, so the person who this is all happening to is the pregnant woman with AIDS.

First of all if this woman is in a country where she has the option of a clean and relatively safe abortion, the woman should be told of the options open to her, the support that is available and the after care she can expect. The obstetrician advising this woman should also take into account what family support the woman has at the moment and what support she is likey to have in the future. The ages and abilities of her other children may need to be taken into account also as part of this process. Not least, the woman's own wishes need to taken into account in the decison of whether to carry out an abortion or not.

Some other things that I would want to consider before making a decision:
Giving this woman treatment for AIDS may increase the possibility for her to have a healthy baby who is not infected with HIV. Clinical studies have shown that delivery by caesarian section will further help to lower the risk. Also what kind of health this woman is in apart from having AIDS, and how any treatment will impact on the unborn child.

Now it could be that this woman may be a victim of living in a poor country or a developing country, where it has been shown in studies that typically in these countries, over half of people suffering with AIDS and HIV are women. These women generally do not have the finance, healthcare support or education that their counterparts in developed countries do. The choices for them are often more stark and limited and boil down to most realistically having no drugs to help keep the infection under control, giving birth to a child that is probably infected with HIV and probably dying whilst the baby is young.

I don't think this woman and the life inside her should be judged or treated based of anyones opinion of her and how she acquired this infection. It may however, assist in planning the way forward for caring for this woman. Just as a matter of interest, it can take 9 or 10 years before the HIV virus reveals itself in the blood screening of someone infected with it. It is more important to know if this woman is still practicing things directly related to what she did when she acquried the infection, be it unsafe sex or iv drug use or anything else which may compromise her or her baby's life. Yes the woman, could be an indiscriminate drug user and how she would need to be advised may be affected by that issue. Even if the mother is a drug addict, there are possibilities for this woman to have this baby; its chances of being 'normal' and healthy would be further compromised though.

On the topic of abortion, I don't know how many of you have actually seen one? or seen the 'products of conception' once they have been vacuumed out of the uterus? It's not pleasant you can actually see often perfectly formed body parts...

Edited by carri, 31 January 2010 - 08:53 AM.

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#14 cod head

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 06:19 AM

If abortion became illegal would that not encourage some women back into the arms of dangerous back street abortionists were many in the past lost their lives.In some circumstances it should be left up to the doctors what to decide.I do not agree with on demand abortions or those that have terminations very late in pregnancy.But if a doctor said if your wife or mother has this child she will die would you say no let her go ahead and have the child anyway.It should be weighed on medical evidence on the child and the mother if a child is aborted or not.

#15 carri

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:28 AM

I guess the real question is what advice would you give this woman as a friend if she asked you what to do. I am a registered nurse and a registered midwife and have dealt with similar scenarios, having to give advice in a professional capacity. My advice would be something along the lines of, take the advice of those who are the professionals but also not to forget that this is HER life and the life of her unborn baby. No one else can make the decision for this woman, not even the doctors. The law of the land and human rights laws comes into play here also and so the doctor needs the written consent of this woman in order to perform an abortion. In some countries the law requires the consent of both parents to do an abortion. The doctors are there to give information and advice and subsequent treatment. They are not free to make this decision and the only way they could make the decision to carry out a termination without this woman's consent would end up going through court to get permission to go ahead.

Edited by carri, 31 January 2010 - 09:30 AM.

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