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Islam - How to prove...?


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#1 iDukeHelp

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 08:34 PM

Well, I always try to ask my dad about this stuff and he explains it but his English is a little rough.

So my two questions/problems:

I have some friends that don't believe in God, which I think is a problem because look how complex everything is. Look at the atom, for instance, one of the most complex items in the world, while being the smallest! Look at the human body, how all the systems interact with each other, how weather is undergone, and how the universe works! If anything, there must be some force behind all this, which couldn't have been a physical force because of all this!

We were having a discussion about evolution, which they were saying that we went through evolution and have common ancestory with apes. This is nonsense in Islam because we were made from the Earth, and we will soon be put back where we were once (Adam) brought from.

So, how can I prove to them that we do not have common ancestory to apes/monkies.

And how can I prove to them that God exists (why we dont see, smell, feel, taste, or hear him).


Thanks!

Edited by iDukeHelp, 30 October 2009 - 07:00 PM.


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#2 groovicus

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:11 PM

Ok, so I have two equally valid questions. How do we prove to you that humans evolved from apes? How do we prove to you that there is no God? I don't care what your religion is; your beliefs are no more valid than mine, and you have no more right to tell anyone what they should believe, any more than I have the right to tell you what to believe. It is my understanding that Islam fosters freedom of thought, worship, justice, and education. I am not a religious scholar, but I can't think of any religions that do not embrace these same freedoms. I also know of many people who do not believe in God that also believe in these same freedoms.

My question to you is why you feel the need to try and persuade others what to believe? I know many people that are so secure in their faiths and beliefs that they feel no need to tell others what to believe. I know others that are so insecure in their beliefs that they feel the need to demonstrate how pious they are by telling others what they should believe. If you believe that we came from the dirt, and that helps you get through the day, great. If someone else believes that we evolved from apes, and that helps them get through their day, so what? Who am I to tell you otherwise?

#3 Wildabeast

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:21 PM

If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Wouldn't they have evolved into humans? :thumbsup:
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#4 groovicus

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:25 PM

Species can diverge; that's why there are umpteen varieties of flies.

#5 Orange Blossom

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 09:43 PM

One of my devout Islamic friends who is also a mathematician said this (and I'm paraphrasing here):

There is no way to prove the existence of God, and there is no way to disprove the existence of God. The reason is that each 'proof' begins with the premise that one is trying to prove.
---------------
Evolution is a matter of science and as such is in the realm of proving and disproving. It is also a theory. Good scientists always work to disprove theories. One thing is sure, evolution to at least some degree does occur. This has been documented with a number of plants, animals, viruses, and bacteria.

In contrast, God is in the realm of belief and faith. There is no issue of proving or disproving about it. One believes or not. And to try to force another to a different religious viewpoint is, in the words of one of my priests, an act of violence.

One other thought: Cannot evolution be a means of creation? All living things come out of the dust (earth) and return to the dust be they plants or animals. So could not humans evolve out of apes and monkeys and still be out of the dirt?

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#6 tug

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 10:10 PM

You cannot prove to them that we are not from apes as science has shown we are.
Whether you Believe or not is up to you and you should not force your opinions on others but the truth is there.

If you have so much faith in your personal beliefs then give them your holy book and leave them to it, Let them make up their own minds.


Also atoms are not the smallest thing in the world, they are made from protons, electrons and neutrons and protons and neutrons themselves are made up of quarks and gluons, and they also might be made up of even smaller things.

#7 JohnWho

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 08:13 AM

For what it is worth, I believe:

that man is a very inquisitive creature and, someday, (assuming we don't self-destruct) we will know all there is to know.

By definition then, knowing all that is knowable, we will be able to prove whether there is, or is not, a "god". (God in quotes to include any possible definition.)


Until we get to that point, it does and will remain impossible to prove either possibility.

Therefore, a personal believe either way is perfectly acceptable since neither can be either proved or disproved.

While some may believe strongly, and argue vehemently, either way, the truth is that at this point in man's level of knowledge, neither can be proved definitely.


So, believe what you will, share it when appropriate, don't try to force it on anyone else,

and...

"the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see
Wait and see



(Apologies to Jackie Deshannon, et all - "Put a little love in your heart")


I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
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#8 BlackSpyder

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:12 PM

"The truth is what you make of it, it begins and ends in you" Bad Religion (out of context, most likely paraphrased, and i forgot the name of the song)

How can one prove any god exists. One cannot. A god or goddess can be formed around a religion or a religion around a god or goddess. All religions require "faith" (the belief of the existence of things physically unsensed) to prove the existence of their god, which is null and void in non-believers. (Big Catch 22, huh?)

As for evolution. National Geographic TV ran a show the other week on the human genome that showed all humans had a common ancestor who lived in Africa some XX million years ago (which blows the whole idea of Middle Eastern people being the origin of the species, and voids all Jewish based religions, and yes Islam is based in Judaism) Yet again this is a "faith" thing and anyone outside of ones religion will have a different opinion of it.

So in order to deny evolution, one must be of a religion, to be of a religion, one must have faith in the unsensed, which with out religion is pointless. it's a big circle of illogical Catch 22's

All that being said I believe in God and am of the Christian Faith but I hold no ties to any group that claims to be a religion. Religion is a man made thing. Faith is defined above.

Edited by BlackSpyder, 30 October 2009 - 05:17 PM.

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#9 Pandy

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 12:23 PM

iDukeHelp,

Like Groovicus has stated why do you feel a need to convince or force your friends into believing what you believe? Why should they? We all believe what our life experiences have shaped us to believe. If we could answer those questions for you, can you just imagine? BleepingComputer.com would likely be nominated for a Nobel Peace prize. :thumbsup:

The answer is you cannot because one would have to have FAITH to believe in the unseen and unfelt. All of the world's religions (IMHO) are based on HOPE. They all think they believe, they all think they have faith, and maybe they do, but doesn't that rise out of hope? I think it must. We hope because we do not know. Do not ask someone to believe what they cannot feel. It rises out of our own hearts, thoughts, wishes, needs, hopes and desires as individuals.

There is not a person on the face of this earth that can argue against Love and be righteous. Love is irrefutable. Love is simple.

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight.

Hide not your talents. They for use were made. What's a sundial in the shade?

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#10 JohnWho

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 03:19 PM

(quote)" If we could answer those questions for you, can you just imagine? BleepingComputer.com would likely be nominated for a Nobel Peace prize. :flowers:
"(end quote)

BC should get it now, since we "might" do something great, and that seems to be the criteria now.

:thumbsup:


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#11 Pandy

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 04:13 PM

:thumbsup: @ JohnWho :flowers:

Edited by Pandy, 31 October 2009 - 04:13 PM.

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight.

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#12 JohnWho

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 05:32 PM

Perhaps, but it made you laugh.

:thumbsup:


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but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!


#13 _Allan_

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 10:24 PM

Point out that the dead sea scrolls, which are between 2010 and 1800 years old, show unequivocal proof that Jesus Christ walked the earth. That he was crucified, and 3 days later Him tomb was empty. There is proof outside of Christianity that He did perform miracles - again, look at the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Also, do you, that if it were put on the "Best Sellers" list, the Bible would have been the top selling book for the past 500 years! It out sells every other book on the New York Times, Oprah and other 'top seller' lists combined every year! If it wasn't a book written by a Higher Authority ... how could it have been the #1 selling book for 500+ years?
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#14 MissPlaced

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 04:01 AM

@ iDukeHelp....unfortunately your NOT gonna be able to prove that GOD or The Risen Christ is alive and well to your friends....that's somethange that they are gonna have to want to know for themselves.....then and only then, will they know....you can point out the (-Allen- no insult intended) the Bible, Dead Sea Scrolls, The Shroud of Turine...BUT only when your friends want to know for themselves will they even begin to pay attention to what you are sayin.....The best that you can do for your friends is pray for them, and let your life speak of your beliefs.

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#15 woodyblade

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 08:31 AM

As you can see iDukeHelp you'll not find much of an answer for proving the unknown, we may never know if there is any such "God" or unknown physical force and might never be able to prove it, just to say my way of thinking is more logical and scientific, I research and read about things before I make up my mind, plus I have no religon or believe in no God what so ever and wouldn't have anyone try forcing any religon on me either because obviously I would tell them where to shove it.
I do respect the religous views and do listen to them but I wouldn't accept a religon and it's beliefs being forced on me, you can't tell/force your friends to believe what you believe, what I don't get is why you think it is such a problem that without a God or Religon the complex things in the World are not understandable, by that defintion you are saying I like many others on this planet are at least dumber than those with a religon or god to believe in, no one needs to believe in a God or Religon to understand the complexities of life, we are human beings and have proved we can learn new things and develop new ways be it good or bad to the planet as a whole.

In my eyes scientists have proven more about how we are here and how we came about on this planet and have very plausible theories as to how the universe formed i.e. Big Bang theory which does answer your question about evolution or at least from my point of view it does.




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