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Corporal Punishment.


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#1 cod head

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 08:52 AM

I went to school at a time when corporal punishment was still allowed.I myself received the cane and the slipper quite often.With a lot of the younger generation being characterized as hedonistic and unruly do you think a return to corporal punishment in schools would be a good idea to instill discipline.


EDIT: Moved to a more appropriate forum

Edited by garmanma, 28 September 2009 - 10:59 AM.


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#2 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:03 AM

:thumbsup:

Are you trying to re-invent the Y-Generatation?

That is just too much.

We all Honestly had a chance once, but we missed out badly.

:flowers:

Edited by Abacus 7, 28 September 2009 - 10:08 AM.


#3 woodyblade

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 08:58 AM

I've heard about the caning and stuff from my Dad (He got it a bit plus the slipper round the head from my Granddad), but I don't like your way of saying "With a lot of the younger generation being characterized as hedonistic and unruly", you as the older generation (assuming you are older since you referred to the younger generation) always seem to class us the same i.e. you think it is the majority when in reality it is only 5% (minority) of the youth who are the idiots, oh and as an addition since you are British like me I wonder why you spelt "characterized" like that since that is American English, it should be "characterised" the S for British English.

Plus what also isn't fair is the fact that insurance companies also brand youth as the same in terms of driving, it costs 100's even a 1000 or 2 to insure a small 1.2 litre car.

Anyway to your point maybe there should be more discipline in schools, it certainly lacked in some ways while I was at school, but what can you do we live in a day and age where hitting a kid is seen as assault against that him or her, the teachers are certainly limited in what they can do, but I have to say from my point of view it is more the environment that the youth grows up in, if the parents administer discipline and show them what is wrong and right then he or she will be good in society for the rest of his or her life, it's up to the parents to do the job because if they don't (which some obviously don't) then obviously it leads them to commit crimes in later life.

An idea I have always thought of is to bring back National Service, maybe a new law/legislation should be signed in by the government, whereby schools can enforce National Service on youth who have been bad throughout school, maybe because they got constant detention times handed out or got in fights a lot etc, forcing them to do 1 years National service when they have finished school before they can continue on with their life should do good to discipline them for later life and make it so it can be increased if those in the Army think they should stay maybe with additional 6 month periods until they have shown good progress.

#4 cod head

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 09:48 AM

Hi woodyblade,I thought the term a lot would be relative rather than most.In reply as to why I spelled characterised as the American characterized.Well for one this forum as a lot,relative,of American members and also I tend to use a American English spell checker as most forums I use are mostly American. Or have a lot of American members.

I agree with you, most as you say modern youth are good kids and its only a small minority that give you a bad name.And there was probably a similar portion of idiots in my time.I was born in the fifties.But I cannot remember O.A.P,s being attacked and beaten up by youngsters or so many murders in general.When I was younger a Murder was headline news,its not anymore unless its particularly gruesome.

I think there was 4 murders in my smallish home town last year.I just think violence as become more violent than my day.I got into scraps as a kid but if a opponent said he had enough you let him get up and that was it.It was not deemed right to kick him senseless for good measure.And I also agree with you its about how children are brought up.

And no I do not think its fair that car insurance for a youngster is around a thousand pound.Because all that does is make the irresponsible youngsters not bother getting insured at all and we all lose.It would be better if the cost of insurance was spread amongst everyone as long as you don't crash into other cars.

And we seem to be agreed that there is some discipline lacking in a small percentage.I just wanted to stir a debate on how folks think we can get it back.I also think a lot of political correctness and politicians sticking there nose in the police's work and giving them far to much paperwork so that they spend more time writing than being on the beat is a contribution.I mean the police have to be answerable but not that tied down that they cannot do their jobs.

#5 woodyblade

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 10:27 AM

Nah it doesn't matter if it is an American forum and has American members spell how you want, it is still pronounced the same (Well unless we spell Centre instead of the American Center) if you use Firefox you could try this British English Dictionary Add-On - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3366, up to you anyway.

Yeah respect by the minority of youth is certainly lacking towards OAP's, one thing I notice sometimes is on Public transport where the elderly get on, now the respectful thing to do is for someone to get up and offer their seat to them if there are none, most people never even bother getting up or even trying to offer their seat, I do but rarely see a full tram or bus when I'm on them so normally there is some seats and on a few occasions when I have offered my seat some say thank you but they are alright (I always wonder why some people say that?).

As for fights I have to agree they do sound to be more violent now then 20 or 30 years since, I'd once seen a fight while in school (Seen quite a few during breaks) where it was one on one, so even and fair, one was knocked to the floor, once he was down on the floor 2 of the others mates came in and started kicking him while he was down on the floor he ended up with more injuries than were needed, if they had left it when he had been knocked down then he would have had a bit of bruising around the face instead he had to go to the dentist to have his brace fixed because they broke that while kicking him, fighting like that just proves what cowards those 3 were.

I have to agree with you about political correctness, we can barely say anything now without someone being offended or suing etc and certainly the police are limited in what they can do, I'm quite sure the Police would like to be out on the streets more rather than filling out paper work, just wish the Government would bring in legislation to speed up the process.

#6 MissPlaced

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 11:05 PM

@ cod head & Woodyblade.....
As an employee of the american school system of sorts( I transport special needs kids to school, they run the gammet from severly challenged to Behavioral problems)

This year and I am blessed with Behavioral Problem children..they attend an alternative School.....
I had the same bunch last year as well....my theory about dealin with children such as this, is simply this,
my late Father taught me long ago about the "Iron fist in the velvet glove" it work's quite well....
It work's like this.....you get to know the children as individuals and figure out who the ring leader is..this usually doesn't take long......LOL......Once you've done that, you in essence grab the bully by the horn's and show him/her whose boss, the rest will crumble and become compliant in short order......Last year it only took 6 month's and my last nerve to accomplish that( the leader was hard headed..LOL..i've been doin this for 12 years,i've never had to write a student up before.....he was the exception... i warn once, after that you get what you deserve!....he thought i was jokin...he thought wrong!) He and I now get along great!....

Most of the Behavioral problem children,are really good kids at heart, their just a little rough around the edges,and sometimes with a little patience and you're last nerve you're able to make a difference in their lives....
sometimes the schools are filled with what my father used to term as "Degreed Idoit's"....He had a point.....I've watched how some of these "Special educators" deal with these children.....There are some that are worth their weight in gold!! and there's those that well...you just can't fix stupid!!...they creat more of a problem....

occasionally you run into an exceptionaly hard headed child.....their stubborn as a mule.....for those you figurativally need a 2x4 to wake em up......
That where i agree with Woodyblade.....
I've often thought that with a child like that, the school system needs to hire some nice ex-marines....and send these stellar young ladies and gentlemen to these nice ex-marines for a boot camp of sorts....that'll knock the additude right out of em in short order.....

You see for alot of these Behavioral Problem kids they get hit enough at home.....they already know very well how to play on that field and win....What throws em off their game is when you show them that you care sincerely about them as people..at first they eye you suspeciously..as if their asking..what's up with you, what's your game? are you some kind of Mother Thersa.. I got your Mother Theresa for ya right here.....and they begin to test you to see just what you're made of and if you mean what you say.....If you remain consistent...then the battles already won...You've gotten their attention....their curiosity....and are well on your way to winnin them over....Say what you mean and mean what you say,don't bat an eye or waver an inch....even they don't know it, but what their really looking for is somebody who will look at em and say, "Yes i see you..all of you..warts and all....and under all your crapola, i see somebody worth knowing.....

You want to be great, Learn how to heal people, To hurt people is easy


Be Kinder then you have to be,you never know what battle someone else is fighting~~~
~~~~Martrys song~~~~~
~~~~My Deliverer~~~~~~

#7 cod head

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 04:17 AM

@MissPlaced,
I do not know if we have special schools for behavior problem children in the U.K.but I have not heard of them.We have schools for some special needs children but even they are few and far between.B.T.W.they do sound a good idea especially if they have streetwise teachers like yourself who know how to deal with these kids.

And as you say there are some that seem to need a figurative 4x2 to knock some sense into them and there I agree with both you and woodyblade about a military styled discipline for the most challenging.I think a good idea would be when the summer holidays start those that are out of control lose two or three weeks of there holidays to attend some form of boot camp to knock out the bad attitudes and take the rough edges of them.In the military the term we break them and them make them is often used.This is far better done before they go off the rails.

I doubt that bringing back the cane would work anyway because so much respect as been lost that some of these kids are likely to take the cane off the teacher and use it on them.I used the term corporal punishment as it was more likely to spring up a bit of controversy and get a debate going.Anyway some ideas are coming forward I just wish that more common sense was used rather than some parents abdicating there responsibility just because it seems easier to do nothing or they want their kids to be their best mates.

#8 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 04:09 AM

:flowers:

You know?

Some times some of the Older People got it Right in the past, but with Kids, from many ages, it is a constant excercise. They always will test out whatever Limits you ever set. Crazyily enough, Dogs can be very similar to them. It is part of the Pecking Order. Always the Limits are Tested to find the Strongest. Just part of our Animal Back Ground.

Not that I mean that Kids are Animals, neither are most Adults, but we all follow on a Pattern from way back. OK, Example? School Yard Bully. Who does that remind us of? Try Work Bully, Office Bully, Government Department Bully, Country Leader Bully. We have all saw them over the years?

Now? Can you Honestly want to Cane or Slipper Kids that are just doing what we all did?

Edit. Check this out for Kids gone Wild? :thumbsup: No DisRespect ever intended to a Lovely Lady that really understands Kids, like I do. Kids appreciate a Kick in the Butt, even Verbally when it is due, but will get upset if it is not called for, just like us Adults.

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/top...ml#entry1441715

We should all get on our knees and be Grateful that we have Kids to take over from us.

Edit. There are some Young People here that I am very Proud to know, they make me very comfortable for the Future of this Earth.

:trumpet: :inlove:

Edited by Abacus 7, 05 October 2009 - 04:30 AM.


#9 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 03:49 PM

I find it ironic that we (as a society), are expecting public schools to teach our kids more than we did in the past, for example, drug use, drunk driving, and sex, to name a few. Yet, we are taking away their authority. But I know at my old high school, if someone gets into a fight, or is caught with alcohol, drugs, or cigarettes, in general they will just call the police.

I don't necessarily think that it is a bad idea to replace corporal punishment with law enforcement. They might as well get a taste when they are too young to get locked up.
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

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#10 MissPlaced

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 09:22 PM

ryan_w_quick

Yours is a good idea.....in theory.....unfortunately it doesn't work..for this reason,

The Local police are regular visitors at the "Alternative School",their called when a student,is out of control and is in danger of hurting themselves or somebody else,property damage like kicking out the glass front doors of the school again....fights..ect....When they are called,they really don't do much except try and "Talk" the offending child into behaving....

These kids aren't stupid!! they know they have nothing to fear from the police..there NOT going to jail...
in order for this to work,you don't bluff,they will call you on it....
Here once again the "Degreed Idoits" have messed up again....
I've alway's thought,"ok so you called the police..now what....OHH DUH!
I say if you're gonna call the police then let that student wear the fancy braclets,as their being escorted out to that police car,then let em experience the ambieance of a jail cell for a few hours while there waiting for mom and pop to come and get em.
There's nothing quite like first hand experience to give you a little insight.....Once these offenders are dealt with this way it accomplishes 2 thing's,first the offender knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that the games are over, this is real life!
and second,about half of these offenders parents , really don't want to be bothered with their child in the first place, so when they have to take time out of their day to come and bail their child out,their not happy!!..tough!
it becomes in their own best interest to bring their child under control,or have to face social services meddeling in their business,having to dig into their own pocket's to make restitution , hire a tutor to home school their child..all things that they don't want......so like it or not, they have to become responsable for thier own child...what a concept!

BUT that's not what happens.....the police talk......the kid keep's smartin off.....the police talk some more....
and after a few hours of this.....the kid is tired.....the police leave..the kid is given either out of school detention, or in school detention for a few day's.....and then it starts all over again.....

We say they suffer from a lack of decipline...and we're right they do.....beating a kid isn't decipline.... i think the best way i ever heard decipline explained is simply this....To decipline mean's to deciple...deciple mean's to teach.

You want to be great, Learn how to heal people, To hurt people is easy


Be Kinder then you have to be,you never know what battle someone else is fighting~~~
~~~~Martrys song~~~~~
~~~~My Deliverer~~~~~~

#11 Pandy

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 09:57 PM

I have an opinion on this topic most definitely.

I do not think corporal punishment should be allowed. Straight up. I experienced that sort of punishment when I was a child.

I can see why some should think it could be allowed. The problem lies in the teacher/authoritative figure taking too much on their damned selves and thinking they can do no wrong. The teacher has a personal bias, or opinion on what they would smack for.

When I was in kindergarten I got spanked 3 times. None of which I feel I deserved whatsoever. Care to know the details?

Once upon a time it was Christmas. The class had a gift exchange. We all brought a gift for a particular person that we drew from a hat. I do not remember who I drew but I recall distinctly who drew my name. Poor kid he must have felt bad. he gave me my present, so I opened it. I was not supposed to apparently because my teacher spanked me for doing it. I was supposed to wait. lol Hey it was a present. I opened it and got spanked. A bare-handed spank.

Some time passes. It's lunch time. Kindergarteners ate in their classrooms at that time. Lunch was scalloped potatoes. I told the teacher I couldn't eat it. I begged not to eat it. I was forced to eat it though. I bet she was sorry. I vomited it up. LOL Well I didn't like it. Is that any reason to spank a child. That what she did. I got spanked for getting sick on scalloped potatoes.

Round about this time I had decided I didn't like my teacher much. I decided that I liked my best friend's teacher much better. So since the classrooms adjoined I would sneak off into the other classroom to be with my best friend at the time, yes every chance I would get I would sneak off. Got spanked again. Never once did I get sent to the principal.

I must have been a horrible child to deserve to be spanked that way.

Looking back now I truly feel she personally didn't like me. The offenses were not worth that sort of punishment. What gave her the right to do that to me or any other child. I can tell you if anyone were so much at grab one of my children there would have been hell to pay. Besides the pain factor involved, it was her exerting power over me. I was a little thing. Not to mention the intense humiliation of it all. I will never forgive her.

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#12 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 02:47 AM

:flowers:

Pandy, in your saying lies one of the Major Problem of Capital Punishment for Children.

Quote.

Looking back now I truly feel she personally didn't like me. The offenses were not worth that sort of punishment. What gave her the right to do that to me or any other child. I can tell you if anyone were so much at grab one of my children there would have been hell to pay. Besides the pain factor involved, it was her exerting power over me. I was a little thing. Not to mention the intense humiliation of it all. I will never forgive her.

It just takes a few Idiots like that to really put the Cat amongst the pigeons with Kids. All they do is make a bad situation much worse.

Personally, I would not be a Nice person to anyone that ever did that to one of my children.

Kids get enough Force in their lives through "Pecking Order" amongst themselves without that sort of Crap and it is totally uncalled for.

We Adults seem to forget that Children are Young Adults Learning? As an Adult will not tolerate Force being used unfairly, so will they. How else will they learn to be worthy Citizens?

Gentle firm words, used in the right way, as Misplaced has said, does it a lot more positively, particularly if one targets the "Ring Leaders". Just a matter of making an example and the rest follow.

After raising six Children of my own and also being Uncle to a very large extended Family, I think I am very qualified to make my Statements.

:thumbsup:

Edited by Abacus 7, 07 October 2009 - 02:51 AM.


#13 MissPlaced

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 08:46 AM

@ Pandy,
What a crappy thing to have happened to you!.....Some people just should never be allowed near children!
Growin up in the era that we grew up in, I think most of us had a teacher like that....I had 2 like that...
"Mrs.Russell" could read "Uncle Remus" like nobody's business....BUT she carried a ruler and used it quite often, the infraction usually was havin your leg outside of the permeiter of your desk....she expected her student's to sit like "stepford children" at our desk's.
The second was Mr.Mascara...he was our PE Teacher, and meaner then a rattle snake!!, it took till i was in high school for them to get rid of that creep!! and only after he pushed a student down a flight of step's and broke his arm....
Like i said we all have our war stories.....
My son loved school,then he had a 3rd grade teacher that was well known for picken one kid every year to pick on,
my son was the one that year.....I had her call me at home to complain that my son was "Talking" in the class room.....I calmly asked her, "Is my son being loud? Disruptive? being the class clown??" No she said, he talking in class,,,,"Is he talking out of turn???...No, he's talking in class....Is he swearing???..NO he's talking in class....

Now at this point i was about out of patience with her, and thinkin to myself"been hittin the juice have ya there babe???....
this kind os stuff continued thru out the rest of the school year..until the day that his principle called me to inform me that he had my son in his office......I went down to the school and retrived my son from his office.....then I went to his classroom and called his teacher out in the hall and asked what he had done to warrent being sent to the principle....his offense... she had written a math problem on the black board, and one by one the children were suppost to solve the problem,and just erase their answer not the whole problem.. my son had misunderstood her direction's and erased the whole problem.....at that point i was totally out of patience with this woman!!.....
And informed her that my son loved school and if his opinion had changed i would know that she was the reason, and a few other choice words..she took off for the principles office bawlin...TOUGH!..she can count her lucky stars that i'm not a violent person by nature, because i was serverly tempyed to kick her donkey behind for her!
Fortunately i was able to indo the damage that she had done...by basically tellin my son..."baby there are all kinds of people in this world, and there not all gonna be nice...there gonna call ya names and treat you badly...BUT baby, it don't matter what they call you, what's important is simply this....it's what you answer to"
i'm very happy to say that my son went on to finish his education and graduated with his "masters"..and had a good time doin it!!(altho some of those good times just about gave me a nervous break down..LOL!! and that's a story for another time :thumbsup: )
These big people that need to exzert their authority by stripping a lil one of their dignity are just sick!

You want to be great, Learn how to heal people, To hurt people is easy


Be Kinder then you have to be,you never know what battle someone else is fighting~~~
~~~~Martrys song~~~~~
~~~~My Deliverer~~~~~~

#14 sh4rkbyt3

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:13 PM

I agree with Pandy and was put into a similar situation when I was young as well.

You can't always use old guidelines as an example and call them 100% successful either. That's like saying "it was ok for cavemen to drag women around by the hair, why can't we do it now"? It's just nonsensical rubbish.

My question to ANYONE who would support Corporal Punishment is two-fold:
1) Would you allow a stranger off the street to beat your child?
2) What constitutes a beating and who's to say it was fair punishment?

The school systems these days are inundated with the responsibility of sometimes having to be the child's parent-like mentor as well as (in many cases) having to deal with parents who quite honestly aren't capable of raising a child let alone disciplining them.

No, I would not agree to anyone beating on my child anymore than I would send my child into a schoolyard to get beaten up by the playground bully. It's stupid!

I won't make cultural comparisons here of what countries or systems still allow this practice but I think you'll also find many of these places are still rooted in superstitions and other legacy barbaric practices in many cases.

I'm not saying a "parent" should not have the right to administer punishment to a child but a stranger? C'mon.

#15 Guy0502

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 05:11 AM

No. Even if canning would work, physical punishment is just not right. If you can't punish adults that way, you shouldn't punish minors that way either.
If a teacher could smack me, I wouldn't attend school. There's a limit on what you can do.
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