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Should The Military allow Gay people in enlist


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Poll: should the US allow gay people to be in the military? (43 member(s) have cast votes)

should the US allow gay people to be in the military?

  1. YES (32 votes [74.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 74.42%

  2. NO (10 votes [23.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.26%

  3. I Don't Know (1 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

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#1 U.S.C.G.

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 11:30 AM

I think that they should be allowed to join the the military. They shouldn't be denied just because of who they love. I support this because it is in the US Constitution and they are breaking it and there the government! Vote and don't be afraid to put in your comments.
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#2 jgweed

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 12:42 PM

Gays have always served in our nation's military, and have died as well; they will continue to serve, since patriotism and duty motivate them as much as the straight population.
Gays serve today, and die today, even though they have to live a lie to do it,which makes their sacrifice even greater.
Regards,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#3 groovicus

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 01:36 PM

I support this because it is in the US Constitution and they are breaking it and there the government!


1) Can you show me exactly where that is in the Constituition?

Or any of the amendments?

2) What law, precisely, is the government breaking?

********

Would you be shocked to know that once you are a member of the military, you are not subject to the same rules (and civil protections) as everybody else? There is no free speech in the military.... there is no right to privacy... you become government property, subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, of which, you will in no way find any reference to civil rights, other than outlining the punishments for violating the civil rights of civilans, or conspiring to do the same.

*********

If you want to debate a topic, especially one such as this, you need to do better than that... find specific fault with the current system, find specific fault with the pentagon or US military policy, and then we can debate those points, but don't tell me that it is in the Constitution, and that the government is somehow breaking the law. That doesn't even get you on the waiting list.

Your question has little to do with the subject of homosexuals in the military. Your question is one of disagreeing with policy prohibiting it.

#4 frankie12

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 01:58 PM

I agree with groovicus in saying that it is not in the united states of America's Constitution. But i do think gay people should be allowed into the US military forces.

#5 Lanscader

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 02:17 PM

I think people are people, and they should be able to work wherever they want, have the desire and the capability, or the desire to gain the capability.

This should be no different in the military. If a homosexual can still do his/her duty, why not let him/her?

"Sir Lord Baron von Vader-han?" ~ Eddie Izzard

 


#6 Heretic Monkey

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 06:22 PM

I see no reason why gays shouldn't be allowed to serve in any military branch. They live in this country, they're citizens, they have a right to protect this country just as anyone else does.

The only reason i've heard for not allowing openly gay men to serve in the military is because it would make the other soldiers feel uncomfortable, or they were afraid that the gays would try to hit on the other soldiers or something. I think the straight soldiers should have a little more to worry about than a few guys checking them out in the showers (which is doubtful considering that many gays aren't sex-maniacs)....

#7 ~overkill~

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 06:53 PM

"Would you be shocked to know that once you are a member of the military, you are not subject to the same rules (and civil protections) as everybody else? There is no free speech in the military.... there is no right to privacy... you become government property, subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, of which, you will in no way find any reference to civil rights, other than outlining the punishments for violating the civil rights of civilans, or conspiring to do the same."

Being born a hermaphrodite, and also serving in the United States Navy, I am all too aware of that fact. In fact, the Navy found out about it before I did and put me out on an entry level enlistment error---uncharacterized discharge with a RN3E rating(never to serve in any branch of the united states military EVER) :thumbsup: . If I had known of my condition, and they had been able to prove it, i wouldve spent 8 years in the brig for fraudulent enlistment. As it is, all rights, benefits, va stuff....all gone. But, as far as gays, sure, why not? they always have... Anyone study world history in depth? Remember the Carpathians? They defended this tiny tiny island off Itay and Greece for hundreds of years against the likes of Alexander the great and Hannibal, just to name a couple. Never conquered. How?
They encouraged homosexuality within the ranks of military. Prevailing thought was that if you were lovers with your shieldmate, you would fight all the harder to protect him and country. Never conquered but, alas, genetics wasnt set up that way and, lo, they were felled by the simple fact that eventually, there just werent enough soldiers to defend the place. :flowers:

#8 ~overkill~

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 07:06 PM

PS for groovicus---


The 14th Amendment ensured that all citizens of all states enjoyed not only rights on the federal level, but on the state level, too

The 9th Amendment is simply a statement that other rights aside from those listed may exist, and just because they are not listed doesn't mean they can be violated.

Couldve went a tid further in that vein but after the last post I dont feel it wouldve validated anything...essentually you are correct that it doesnt specifically state, but.......

#9 groovicus

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 07:43 PM

If you are a member of the military, the Bill of Rights no longer pertains to you. The Supreme Court has held on five seperate occasions that serving in the military is not a constitutional right. Furthermore, the Military can and does 'discriminate' based on, among other things, age and physical fitness (and nowadays, criminal history)

I know the amendments very well, and the 9th and 14th are not even applicable. The ninth does not outline any rights at all, but only serves as a guide to interpreting the other amendments. All it says is that the COnstitution and the Bill of rights are not all inclusive, and it must also be taken in conjunction with the 10th amendment. In conjunction, they state that "[...]the people retain all powers (i.e. right or authority) not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor delegated to their respective State governments by the several State Constitutions.- S. H. Atherton

The fourteenth amendment was created to clarify the rights of due process. You may be thinking of the part in Article 1 which states "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States". Clearly, the Miltary is not the State. The 14th Amendment was used to clarify "holes" in both the 5th and 8th amendments.

That still doesn't support the initial argument that the government is breaking any laws, or that it is supported by the Constitution.

#10 ~overkill~

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 08:51 PM

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States

true and accurate, exactly what i was referring to, and as i read further into it I must say that i stand corrected.

I am not a member, i WAS a member, and that quite a while ago. I was merely trying to find something that backed up the "all men created equal" concerning the gay population. Its also why i didnt try to force the issue, as you are essentially correct even if my two ammendments were considered. As you stated, once you are military, you are government issue, and that applies even after release from duty. 12 people lost their jobs at Charlotte MEPS for failure to identify my medical condition and were courts-martialled. My da even had some fallout, being ex navy and still considered a consultant for ecv...you are correct on the bottom line regardless

#11 dpb510

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 09:22 PM

I think jgweed said it well, "Gays serve today, and die today, even though they have to live a lie to do it,which makes their sacrifice even greater."
And groovicus is right about how the law is now being interpreted. Law student, paralegal, attorney? Upon signing the dotted line, you agree to give up all of your civil rights and become military property. I think this is one of the only times, and groovicus please set me straight, in which you may sign away your constitutional rights.
My question is........? Why oh why, would any person, be they gay or not, want to join a group that basically says you're not much better than their slave?!?
I know I'll probably get flamed for this, cause people are proud of their military service and sacrifice to our country, as they should be! But wouldn't all those who served, be just as proud, if they had not signed away their rights?
...........dpb...........

#12 ~overkill~

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:10 PM

ppl can be proud, if they want, i feel spat upon. i actually joined cuz i didnt know where certain thoughts and feelings came from, and i thought it would help...i know now that it wouldnt, butboy did they mess me up...i had a few dollars invested in their lil college fund...hijacked me fer shure

#13 rigel

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Posted 19 July 2005 - 10:24 PM

Yes, gays should be allowed to serve in the military. They should fall under the same UCMJ rules as anyone, and also follow the same paths. I also ditto the words of John.

Rigel

"In a world where you can be anything, be yourself." ~ unknown

"Fall in love with someone who deserves your heart. Not someone who plays with it. Will Smith


#14 legoman786

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:31 AM

I totally agree with everyone who said that gays should be and are in the military. there are thousands of gays in the military who are serving, have served, and have died serving for this great country.

i would be shocked to listen to somebody's opinion saying that its morally wrong for gays to enlist.

Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
- Rick Cook


#15 dpb510

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:04 PM

It's encouragingly to see that every one, so far in these forums, agree that gays should have the right to serve in the military. Maybe this is because many of us "geeks" understand what it feels like to be treated differently.
Hey! How many of you folks are form the 'Blue' states? Just a thought.

legoman786, if it would shock you to listen to somebody's opinion saying that its morally wrong for gays to enlist, remember, just 9 mos ago, a majority of people in this country, voted not to allow gays to become married.

Overkill believe me, when it comes to feeling spat upon by the military, you and a multitude of other vets feel the same way. Go and speak with many of the Nam vets. Ask them if agent orange had any effect on their lives?
Factoid: over 50% of the homeless people in this country are Vets.

To me the gay issue is exactly the same as the black, and womens movements of the 60s. Could it be the same bigoted people?

.........dpb..........




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