Jump to content


 


Register a free account to unlock additional features at BleepingComputer.com
Welcome to BleepingComputer, a free community where people like yourself come together to discuss and learn how to use their computers. Using the site is easy and fun. As a guest, you can browse and view the various discussions in the forums, but can not create a new topic or reply to an existing one unless you are logged in. Other benefits of registering an account are subscribing to topics and forums, creating a blog, and having no ads shown anywhere on the site.


Click here to Register a free account now! or read our Welcome Guide to learn how to use this site.

Photo

Microsoft Ordered To Stop Selling Word


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 Andrew

Andrew

    Bleepin' Night Watchman


  • Moderator
  • 8,250 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Right behind you
  • Local time:12:18 PM

Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

Judge Leonard Davis, of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, ordered a permanent injunction that "prohibits Microsoft from selling or importing to the United States any Microsoft Word products that have the capability of opening .XML, .DOCX or DOCM files (XML files) containing custom XML," according to an announcement by the plaintiff, Toronto-based i4i Inc.


Article
Complaint (PDF)
Injunction (PDF)

The ban takes effect in 60 days and applies to Microsoft Word 2007 and 2003. Microsoft is expected to appeal.

Edited by Amazing Andrew, 12 August 2009 - 09:51 PM.


BC AdBot (Login to Remove)

 


#2 DJBPace07

DJBPace07

  • BC Advisor
  • 4,869 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:03:18 PM

Posted 13 August 2009 - 06:35 PM

I just listened to an interview the the CEO of i4i did on CNET's Buzz Out Loud, available here, and I'm not entirely convinced that they aren't just patent trolling. After all, they did file in east Texas, ground zero for such lawsuits. I'm still a little hazy on what "custom XML" even is. I doubt Word will actually leave store shelves, it's just too large and important. Besides, many lawmakers and judges, and also justices, are not convinced that injunctions are all that effective in these cases. I would be a little surprised if the injunction actually stuck. This is just my two cents...

Edited by DJBPace07, 13 August 2009 - 09:28 PM.

3939.png

 


#3 Score_Under

Score_Under

  • Members
  • 18 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:08:18 PM

Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:26 PM

Skim-reading that, all I could glean from it was that they somehow managed to get a patent on such a simple idea as keeping document content and formatting structure in separate files.

#4 londonliving

londonliving

  • Members
  • 145 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:03:18 PM

Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:27 PM

Isn't XAML the Microsoft version of XML?

It looks the same as XML, but has subtle differences which stop native interaction in agreed W3C namespaces.

It's a nightmare for database projects where the standards are not adhered to, much like the Internet Explorer 5 CSS bugs.

Whilst East Texas may be a 'haven for patent litigation', isn't that where Microsoft ensured that every CPU had to have its own copy of Windows?

That was way before Intel had heard of the dual core idea (Transputer from INMOS in UK in 1980's).

Still, MS does try to patent everything itself, so it's the same law applied to all.

Well, at least the damages are only $200,000,000 - it could have been worse.

'Microsoft are appealing' and how will they write up their appeal? OpenOffice is free and from the start complies with the patent.

i4i Inc. have been producing interactive, standards compliant tools for several years - including for the legal profession and Governmental Departments.



EDIT: Microsoft apparently have patented XML on 4th August 2009 Word-processing document stored in a single XML file that may be manipulated by applications that understand XML

A word processor including a native XML file format is provided. The well formed XML file fully represents the word-processor document, and fully supports 100% of word-processor's rich formatting. There are no feature losses when saving the word-processor documents as XML. A published XSD file defines all the rules behind the word-processor's XML file format. Hints may be provided within the XML associated files providing applications that understand XML a shortcut to understanding some of the features provided by the word-processor. The word-processing document is stored in a single XML file. Additionally, manipulation of word-processing documents may be done on computing devices that do not include the word-processor itself.


Doesn't that seem a little too broad and convenient? Did the patent office know about this prior art?

A 2001 post by the CEO of i4i explains the reason behind their XML document tools. It's even used in the US Patent Office.
XML for the Rest of Us

LondonLiving

Edited by londonliving, 15 August 2009 - 12:08 AM.


#5 DJBPace07

DJBPace07

  • BC Advisor
  • 4,869 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:03:18 PM

Posted 15 August 2009 - 01:28 AM

I don't think MS ensured that every computer must run Windows. I thought earlier this year Microsoft started making an effort to open up their XML standard. This lawsuit is sort of a trial run for that company that just recently patented podcasting. Who knows when they will start suing everyone. There are interesting follow-ups and opinion pieces floating around the net. Microsoft can appeal, most likely to stop the injunction, which if it went through, would be ineffective. As the lawsuit goes up the legal chain in the U.S., new judges will look at the case and may evaluate it possibly up to the Supreme Court, though it is unlikely to get that far. This could continue for several years.

Tom's Hardware - MSFT Hoped Word 11 Would Render i4i "Obsolete"

3939.png

 


#6 londonliving

londonliving

  • Members
  • 145 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:03:18 PM

Posted 15 August 2009 - 01:58 AM

I don't think MS ensured that every computer must run Windows. I thought earlier this year Microsoft started making an effort to open up their XML standard. This lawsuit is sort of a trial run for that company that just recently patented podcasting. Who knows when they will start suing everyone. There are interesting follow-ups and opinion pieces floating around the net. Microsoft can appeal, most likely to stop the injunction, which if it went through, would be ineffective. As the lawsuit goes up the legal chain in the U.S., new judges will look at the case and may evaluate it possibly up to the Supreme Court, though it is unlikely to get that far. This could continue for several years.

Tom's Hardware - MSFT Hoped Word 11 Would Render i4i "Obsolete"


Microsoft argued that each computer must have it's own copy of an Operating System or software. That established that software was of least of equal value to a user as the hardware.

Even Apple license on a per-computer (processor) or device.

As for the podcasting issue surely there is an iPod link together with the Fraunhofer MP3 protection as this would cover 'distribution or diffusion by any network'. Vague, but over-comprehensive!

Office 2010 has a similar engine, so the problem doesn't go away.

Ah, well the story will continue.

LL

#7 DanCandy

DanCandy

  • Members
  • 8 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tampa, FL
  • Local time:03:18 PM

Posted 06 October 2009 - 10:49 AM

Has there been any update on this situation? The 60 day deadline is approaching.

#8 groovicus

groovicus

  • Security Colleague
  • 9,963 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Centerville, SD
  • Local time:01:18 PM

Posted 06 October 2009 - 10:09 PM

The ruling is under appeal, so Microsoft can continue with sales.

Office 2010 has a similar engine

Yes, but since it still has not been released, there is time to rewrite code if necessary.

#9 Cassiopeia

Cassiopeia

  • Members
  • 229 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:03:18 PM

Posted 19 November 2009 - 07:45 PM

huh?

That is ignorant.

That ranks right there with AOL and MSN Messenger having hissies because originally we could all chat together. :thumbsup:

#10 Animal

Animal

    Bleepin' Animinion


  • Site Admin
  • 34,530 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Where You Least Expect Me To Be
  • Local time:12:18 PM

Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:34 PM

Has there been any update on this situation? The 60 day deadline is approaching.

Court upholds patent ruling against Microsoft

The Internet is so big, so powerful and pointless that for some people it is a complete substitute for life.
Andrew Brown (1938-1994)


A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that." Douglas Adams (1952-2001)


"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination circles the world." Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


Follow BleepingComputer on: Facebook | Twitter | Google+

#11 Andrew

Andrew

    Bleepin' Night Watchman

  • Topic Starter

  • Moderator
  • 8,250 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Right behind you
  • Local time:12:18 PM

Posted 25 December 2009 - 12:37 AM

Microsoft issues a "patch" to remove the infringing components, marked as "required for the United States."

#12 keyboardNinja

keyboardNinja

    Bleepin' Ninja


  • BC Advisor
  • 4,815 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:teh interwebz
  • Local time:01:18 PM

Posted 26 December 2009 - 11:12 PM

Okay, I'm not sure I understand the point of the proposed ban.

I know what XML files are, and I use Word all the time for document writing and such. If I understand correctly, they want to ban Word because it can open XML files (which are patented)?

Please excuse my ignorance on this issue and clarify it for me.
PICNIC - Problem In Chair, Not In Computer

Posted Image Posted Image

20 Things I Learned About Browsers and the Web

#13 Andrew

Andrew

    Bleepin' Night Watchman

  • Topic Starter

  • Moderator
  • 8,250 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Right behind you
  • Local time:12:18 PM

Posted 26 December 2009 - 11:23 PM

Starting with Microsoft Word 2007, files are stored as special archives which contain various XML components. So even if all you write are letters to grandma, if the filetype is .docx (which is Word 2007's default) then it infringes upon the patent.

The patent covers, "Method and System for manipulating the architecture and content of a document separately from each other" which MS Word 2007 and higher do when using the .docx. filetype.

Further reading: Office Open XML.

Edited by Amazing Andrew, 26 December 2009 - 11:29 PM.


#14 keyboardNinja

keyboardNinja

    Bleepin' Ninja


  • BC Advisor
  • 4,815 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:teh interwebz
  • Local time:01:18 PM

Posted 27 December 2009 - 08:54 AM

Okay, it's a little clearer now. They don't want you using Word because it uses XML in its coding (or something like that) which is patented.

That makes better sense. Thanks, Andrew. :thumbsup:
PICNIC - Problem In Chair, Not In Computer

Posted Image Posted Image

20 Things I Learned About Browsers and the Web

#15 groovicus

groovicus

  • Security Colleague
  • 9,963 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Centerville, SD
  • Local time:01:18 PM

Posted 27 December 2009 - 11:36 AM

They don't want you using Word because it uses XML in its coding (or something like that) which is patented.

No. XML is not patented. A particular use of XML, in a very particular instance, violated a very general patent held by i4i. Curiously, Microsoft has a patent for a much more specific instance of the i4i's patent.

It has already been removed from Office 2007, and is not part of Office 2010.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users