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God and me


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#1 Ynse

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 01:28 AM

A while ago after a lot of brain pain i have come to terms with the fact that there has to be a God. If i look at the big picture and listen to what scientists have to say, and this isn't easy believe me, it seems to me that we can rule out coincidence as a creator. If what they say is right, everything is so well balanced that a small difference in the numbers would mean an empty universe, or even no universe. They say God made the universe to very strict specifications (they use the word God in a non religious manner)
Do i have to believe in God the Christian way ?
Can i believe in God without taking all the religious stuff that comes along with it ? And if God is the creator is he still running the universe ? because i hate the idea that free will does not exist. Is it even possible for a non Christian to believe in God ?
It took a while to find the courage to post this question, and an internet forum might not be the obvious place to do so, but here it is. It may sound strange but its bothering me, still i don't expect answers because i don't think you will have them either. But i would really appreciate your thoughts on this one. Thanks for the trouble. Ynse

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#2 efizzer

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 01:48 PM

You don't have to be a specific religion to have belief in God. I had that argument with my wife and others about this. My wife, who is Episcopal, the same religion I was born in, benieves in going to church every Sunday. I'm pretty lazy, and agree with god about resting on the Sundays, so I don't go. I had a religious explosion where I questioned mortality and religion, I tested and studied a few religions. I'm a Taoist now, yet I still believe in the Christian God from the Episcopal faith, I go once a year at Easter (my wife asked me as a favor to go with her once during thr year).

I agree with you that I won't have the answers... for you. No one can give you a definite answer, you really need to look inside yourself and find it, and trust me, it's there.

As far as God being there, ya God is, but I think Gods going to let us work out things here. As a line from Robert Browning's "Pippa Passes" says: "Gods in his heaven, All's right with the world."

Edited by efizzer, 05 July 2005 - 02:19 PM.

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We're going to make the merry-go-round go faster, so everyone needs to hang on tighter-just to keep from being thrown to the wolves.

#3 jgweed

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 04:27 PM

Let me suggest, in an oblique way, some thoughts that may contribute to your thinking about this important subject

God can, and certainly has through the ages, meant so many things to so many people, that the word's usefulness to define anything, is next to impossible.

Here I rather follow Kant (and others) who would suggest that all mankind can know it must know in human terms, and if one uses human terms and understanding to talk about God, this makes Him strickly human. For example, many conceptions of God put this being beyond time and space (what does it mean, for example, for a being to exist without being created or without ceasing to be for someone who is born and dies), yet every thing we know must have real existence in space and time. Granted this kind of divine existence, then the problem becomes how such a being could interact with things completely opposite. Discussing the Divinity in such terms always lead to antimonies and unresolvable concepts.

On the other hand, many particular ideas about the Godhead certainly have very traceable historical origins, as a study of Christian dogma and sects readily shows. Viewed from this perspective, choosing one viewpoint over another becomes, to someone serious about his choice, agonizing to the extreme, and perhaps ultimately unanswerable.

Regards,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#4 rigel

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 08:23 PM

Good evening all...

I come in peace. :thumbsup: and you asked... For a believer, it is impossible for me to imagine my world without God as its supreme Creator. Borrowing words from Avalon:

He's Everything to me.
More than a story,
More than words on a page
Of history:
He's the air that I breathe,
The water I thirst for
And the ground beneath my feet.
He's everything,
Everything to me.


With that said...

Do I have to believe in God the Christian way ?

If you want to believe in the God of the bible you do. Granted, men have twisted religion to there own uses. Men have killed in God's name for centuries. They have also used the bible to make their wishes "fit" their lifestyle. There has to be a filter where you understand where man and his sin is, vrs the teaching of God. God is God. You can't make Him anything other than what he is.

Can i believe in God without taking all the religious stuff that comes along with it ?

By religious stuff... if you mean the stuff that is created by man... Yes, you can find Him without the politics of church. I never went to any church... never cared to until I was 23. Even then I didn't have a clue. I found Him or He found me on the side of a highway just after a fatality accident involving a child. It took a while, but I have peace in my life, and He is the reason. It is my opinion that knowing God is more than going to church... but He wants you there too! and I do attend.

And if God is the creator is he still running the universe ? because i hate the idea that free will does not exist. Is it even possible for a non Christian to believe in God ?

Yea, He is still in control. He still let's you do what you want. Don't forget there is another force out there called satan and he loves to screw with lives. In spite of the bad, God is in control. He uses the all bad and eventually turns it for good. Hard to understand, yes... but true.

I challenge you to follow that "feeling" that you have and see where it leads.

He loves ya.

Questions are welcome via private message if you wish.

Good luck,

Rigel

Edited by rigelslight, 05 July 2005 - 08:25 PM.

"In a world where you can be anything, be yourself." ~ unknown

"Fall in love with someone who deserves your heart. Not someone who plays with it. Will Smith


#5 Ynse

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 02:46 AM

Thank's a lot everyone i really appreciate this. its bleeping difficult dealing with this, being an "atheist" for the best part of my life i've never dealt with this material. It's like opening doors to a part of my self to which a had never been before. I will soak up your thought and advice and make the most of it. I will be in my beloved mountains for the coming week, and let His creations overwhelm me, so i won't be able to post but thanks again, this really helps. Ynse :thumbsup:

Edited by Ynse, 06 July 2005 - 02:49 AM.


#6 BuenoCabra

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 10:59 AM

I just want to say, if you have any questions about the nature of God and/or Christianity, please, please, PLEASE pick up Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. That man is a genius. It's not the easiest book to follow for everybody, but it's absolutely grand. It's something like 60 years old, and it's still the best thing I've read yet. It certainly won't answer all your questions, but it will put you in a position to ask much better ones.

And the best thing you can be is searching. If you ever get to a point at which you've gotten everything figured out, you've messed up somewhere. We all kinda live like there's some ultimate point we're supposed to strive for, and once we reach it, we'll be happy and fulfilled. In reality, there's just absolutely no way we can fully comprehend God or any aspect of Him. The reason we have that "something's missing" kinda feeling is exactly because of what John (jgweed) was talking about. He's God, we're people, and our finite minds just cannot contain who He is. Our souls long for something that our bodies can't find. As long as we're on Earth, we'll never fully understand Him. That doesn't give us an excuse to stop trying, though. :thumbsup:

Edited by BuenoCabra, 07 July 2005 - 10:59 AM.


#7 jgweed

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 03:12 PM

Do i have to believe in God the Christian way ?


No. And there is not just one Christian way, but many. As FW Nietzsche once wrote, "There was only one Christian and He died on the cross."


Is it even possible for a non Christian to believe in God ?


As I understand it, both Jews and Moslems believe in God, unless you so narrowly define Him as to limit Him to one particular Christian sect's definition. We often read about the "Judeo-Christian heritage" which is a historically traceable path, but it is more like a tree trunck with many ever-expanding branches.


And if God is the creator is he still running the universe ? because i hate the idea that free will does not exist.


There are Christian sects that believe in free will, and some that do not, depending on how much God "runs" the universe. Many non-religous (and non-sectarian) dogmas, for example, reject the belief in "God" because it denies free will (whatever free will means).

Regards,
John

Edited by jgweed, 09 July 2005 - 07:04 AM.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#8 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 05:13 PM

Im a Christian. I wanted to point you to a few links ok?

This site has Bible questions on it just type in what you want and hit search.
http://www.gotquestions.org/

http://www.branchministry.net/bibleteachings/savedpauls.htm

And this is a great site on how to get saved and why.
http://www.getsaved.com/

Ps I wanted to let you read this.

>>Is there a God?
>>
>>I love this one. Everyone ought to send it to
>>everyone they know, especially today with prayer
>>restricted in schools.
>>
>>One day a 6 year old girl was sitting in a
>>classroom. The teacher was going to explain evolution
>>to the children. The teacher asked a little boy: Tommy
>>do you see the tree outside?
>>
>>TOMMY: Yes.
>>
>>TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
>>
>>TOMMY: Yes.
>>
>>TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can
>>see the sky.
>>
>>TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes,
>>I saw the sky.
>>
>>TEACHER: Did you see God?
>>
>>TOMMY: No.
>>
>>TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because
>>he isn't there. He doesn't exist.
>>
>>A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy
>>some questions. The teacher agreed and the little girl
>>asked the boy:
>>
>>Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
>>
>>TOMMY: Yes.
>>
>>LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
>>
>>TOMMY: Yessssss (getting tired of the questions this
>>time).
>>
>>LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
>>
>>TOMMY: Yessssss
>>
>>LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
>>
>>TOMMY: Yes
>>
>>LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?
>>
>>TOMMY: No
>>
>>LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught
>>today in class, she must not have one!
>>
>>
>>
>>"FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT" II CORINTHIANS
>> 4:7


I hope this helps!

Edited by cowsgonemadd3, 08 July 2005 - 05:28 PM.


#9 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 09:16 PM

I did not make this in time to edit my above post.

I was guessing by what you said "Can i believe in God without taking all the religious stuff that comes along with it ?"
that you meant like Church for instance. Please read these two links.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/19459
http://johnmyers.com/bible30.html

Also I got this email on why go to church I think you might like to read it:
Why Go To Church?


A Church goer wrote a letter to the editor of a newspaper and
complained that it made no sense to go to church every Sunday. "I've gone for 30
years now," he wrote, "and in that time I have heard something like
3,000 sermons. But for the life of me, I can't remember a single one of them.. So, I
think I'm wasting my time and the pastors are wasting theirs by giving
sermons at all."

This started a real controversy in the "Letters to the Editor" column,
much to the delight of the editor. It went on for weeks until someone
wrote this clincher:

"I've been married for 30 years now. In that time my wife has cooked
some 32,000 meals. But, for the life of me, I cannot recall the entire
menu for a single one of those meals. But I do know this... They all
nourished me and gave me the strength I needed to do my work. If my
wife had not given me these meals, I would be physically dead today.
Likewise, if I had not gone to church for nourishment, I would be
spiritually dead today!" When you are DOWN to nothing.... God is UP to
something! Faith sees the invisible, believes the incredible and
receives the impossible! Thank God for our physical AND our spiritual
nourishment!




Also here is another good read like the one above. Its like the one with the teacher and the little girl.
> > The Bible says to have an answer for why you believe,
> >
> > to those who ask you. This is a good example of an
> >
> > answer to one of the most common reasons people give
> >
> > for ignoring God and His goodness.
> >
> > A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and
> >
> > his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they
> >
> > began to have a good conversation. They talked about
> >
> > so many things and various subjects.
> >
> > When they eventually touched on the subject of God,
> >
> > the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists."
> >
> > "Why do you say that?" asked the customer.
> >
> > "Well, you just have to go out in the street to
> >
> > realize that God doesn't e xist. Tell me, if God
> >
> > exists, would there be so many sick people? Would
> >
> > there be abandoned children? If God existed, there
> >
> > would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a
> >
> > loving a God who would allow all of these things."
> >
> > The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond
> >
> > because he didn't want to start an argument. The
> >
> > barber finished his job and the customer left the
> >
> > shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man
> >
> > in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an
> >
> > untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.
> >
> > The customer turned back and entered the barber shop
> >
> > again and he said to the barber: "You know what?
> >
> > Barbers do not exist."
> >
> > "How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I
> >
> > am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"
> >
> > "No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist
> >
> > because if they did, there would be no people with
> >
> > dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man
> >
> > outside."
> >
> > "Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens, is people do
> >
> > not come to me."
> >
> > "Exactly!"- affirmed the customer. "That's the point!
> >
> > God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't
> >
> > go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's
> >
> > so much pain and suffering in the world."
> >
> > If you think God exists, send this to other
> >
> > people---If you think God does not exist, delete it!
> >
> > BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING

Have a good day!

#10 Heretic Monkey

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Posted 08 July 2005 - 11:50 PM

But there's still the fact that, should the teacher's head be split open, you could easily see her brain..... And if you try to use the "you have to believe to see", then what does he look like?

And in regards to that other "simple" story, you do realize how many christians themselves are sick/poor/in terrible condition. How do you explain that? (without the "it all worx out in the end" statement, since a lot of people die from the sicknesses.....)

Sorry, had to throw in my 2 cents to cow's statements.... :thumbsup:

Edited by Heretic Monkey, 08 July 2005 - 11:56 PM.


#11 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 01:20 AM

Are you trying to ask why God lets things happen like deaths of our loved ones and terrorist attacks? Like even to Christians? Is that what your meaning?

#12 Heretic Monkey

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 01:40 AM

Are you trying to ask why God lets things happen like deaths of our loved ones and terrorist attacks? Like even to Christians? Is that what your meaning?

Not really, i've heard like 20 different (and some conflicting) answers to the questions i've posted. I was just pointing out that there are logical alternatives/factors not taken into account in the simple statements you posted.

#13 maj.stiffy

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 12:49 AM

i think the point of those emails are being missed, that just because you can't see something with your eyes doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. everyone is capable of seeing things that are not always visible to others. it's just a matter of point of view (pun intended). you just have to be willing and open to receive the info put in front of you
maj.stiffy

#14 dpb510

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 04:38 PM

Ahh...the god question! I think efizzer said it well: "I agree with you that I won't have the answers... for you. No one can give you a definite answer, you really need to look inside yourself and find it, and trust me, it's there. "
God resides inside each of us. If you turn off the always playing internal dialog, concentrate while being relaxed, and listen intently,you will probably hear the sounds of god. Which may or may not be a voice.
The closes I've ever felt to god was either through meditation and/or while in wild places. Such as high up in the Sierra mts. or along the coast.
Also I agree with igweed: "God can, and certainly has through the ages, meant so many things to so many people, that the word's usefulness to define anything, is next to impossible."
There's a need to first define what god is to you. Is He a he, a she, or some thing completely different.
Maybe god transcends what we 3 dimensional beings are able to comprehend. Could god be every thing?
Good luck on your search.

#15 Scarlett

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 04:47 PM

But there's still the fact that, should the teacher's head be split open, you could easily see her brain..... And if you try to use the "you have to believe to see", then what does he look like?

Do you believe that love, compassion, faith, & hope exists? ...Can you see them? Can you touch them? No, you can't. But you know they are there all around us. You can feel them. You can experience them. But you can't see them, or touch them.

Just in case you do not believe that love, compassion, faith, or hope exists.
What about the air we breathe. Can you see it? What does it look like? All I can say is thank God, it is there for us. We need it to exist. Without it where would we be?

The same goes for God.

I'd be curious as to your theory on how this great universe was created, if not for God. What about all of us? Why and how do we exist?

Edited by Scarlett, 10 July 2005 - 06:17 PM.

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