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abortion: is it murder?


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#1 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 08:47 PM

i believe that it is murder.

I understand that people who defend the right of women to have abortions claim that these women have the right to control their own bodies.

but, here is my question, regardless of if you are republican or democrat, against or for, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT ABORTION IS MURDER?

but alas, it is not so simple. christians, in your book, there is a passage "For the life of the flesh is in the blood." This means that until blood is injected, the flesh is not alive. Did you know, it takes days before the fetus has become "alive".....????

so how do you feel about the pill and about abortion?
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo

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#2 groovicus

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 09:41 PM

And if one doesn't believe in the bible, then your argument falls on its face. And what if I am not a Republican or Democrat? Am I not allowed to participate? So let's quit screwing around and talk about what you think, and leave artificial separatism out of this. It isn't fair to start a topic like this and demand the opinions of others, yet not give your own. You want to have a discussion, then discuss. This is a very sensitive topic, and for me to allow it, you are going to put your opinions and beliefs out there for scrutiny. Otherwise, I will just lock this topic right back up.

The real question (once one gets past the sensationalist crap) is whether that murder is justifiable, and at what point during the pregnancy one believes that life begins. If there is no life, then there is no murder.

#3 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:10 PM

ok . i will give what you demand

I believe that it is murder. this is by no sensationalist or christian movement. I believe that when a woman is carrying a child, if she decides to abort it, that it is murder. What else would you call it?

I only mentioned the christian reference to Leviticus in order to give people a chance to defend or attack a choice based on a religion that is widely accepted in the USA. Because in my opinion, it is unclear what it means, but it may be a soapbox for others.

I've heard that a phetus does not receive blood from the mother for so many days. If this is true, couldn't a mother justify abortion based on the bible, if she aborts in due time?

I just wanted to take the whole abortion "thing" from a new angle. Because, many for abortion, are not Christians. However, I believe that this text could indeed, give authority to christians who believe in abortion.

That is my explanation
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

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#4 gfroggy

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Posted 10 April 2009 - 10:59 PM

I don't know anyone that is 'for' abortion. The issue is whether or not the woman has the right to choose for herself.

Your reference from Leviticus is very vague. Chapter and verse numbers would help put it in context.

I prefer Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." To me that indicates that the fetus comes to life with it's first breath.

I believe that medical profession has also held that a baby that is stillborn,never takes it's first breath,never was alive.

You believe it is murder. What is your reasoning? A tumor receives blood from the body it is in, is removing the tumor murder?
If the mother needs medical treatment to save her life that would kill the fetus, would that still be murder? Wouldn't withholding medical treatment in that case be murder of the mother?

When do you say a fetus becomes a human being with all the rights that intails? At conception? If so then aren't cloned cells then intitled to the same consideration? :thumbsup:

#5 o_rly

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:06 AM

It's not for the same reason that people don't have funerals for miscarriages. It's not a human being.
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#6 the_patriot11

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:20 AM

ill put it this way, arnt you glad your mom chose life. yes its murder, and I believe women have the choice of what they should do with their bodies, so they shouldnt get pregnant, cuz once their pregnant, that baby is NOT their body, its a new life inside them. killing that baby isnt controlling their body, its killing someone elses.

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#7 MissPlaced

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 12:57 AM

a little history lesson....

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/lifecycle/50.asp

as for me, yes it is a real live person at conception...it wasn't for a "clump of cell"s" that i grieved, when my sweet new daughter miscarried....it was for the grandbaby growin inside of her
so my take on abortion is yes it's murder....

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#8 Elise

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:24 AM

O_rly, I do not agree with you that people dont have funerals for miscarriages. I remember more than one couple that actually had a funeral after a miscarriage. It has to be noted that it depends on when the miscarriage took place...

As for my opinion, yes abortion is murder. I am a christian, but I think even without believing in anything, I would consider it murder.
  • As a biologist I can say that even from the early stages a foetus lives
  • As a christian I can say that God is the One that gives that foetus live.
  • As a mother I remember how my child looked and acted when I saw him first on the echo (in the official abortion-term).
Two notes.
There is one exception, when the mother is in danger because of her pregnancy, in that case abortion is a medical proedure, not a birth-prevention tool
Here in Romania many women use abortion as birth-prevention instead of the pill. I know women who have done 20 abortions and they have no problem with that. I understand that lacking the financial resources can be a powerful motive, but then consider leaving the child for adoption so that other parents who would love a kid can take care of them.

Edited by elise025, 11 April 2009 - 01:25 AM.

regards, Elise


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#9 scff249

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:33 AM

To a point, elise025 pretty much said the same thing that I would've said (just without the "As a ____" part). Abortion is considered murder, but if it was a medical procedure due to the mother being in danger because of the pregnancy, then I wouldn't consider it because it'd kind of be a double over if the mother died....which then the baby would more than likely die too (unless some random miracle happened). Of course, my sense in biology and stuff like that is limited....:thumbsup:

In short.....To abort for birth-prevention control is considered murder. To abort for medical reasons is not.

....and now I'll shut up.

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#10 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 01:41 AM

:trumpet:

This is certainly not a new issue in any way and can lead to many miscoceptions and predjucual opinions from all around the World, not just America, that are quite valid to those concerned.

I can give some good examples from my own experience, but I warn if you are a bit squeemish of discussing the internal workings of the Human Body to stop reading now and look somewhere else? What I will say is Fact, but if that upsets you after my warning I am really sorry, but I am trying to cover several points already raised in a practible way by quoting examples to my person knowledge, dating back many years. I am 62, for example and one example involving a Brother? (there is a reason for the question mark), from several years before I was born.

My Mum was quite a tiny person, standing just 4'7'' tall and weighing around 80/90lbs. She had three Boys, John, Bill and Kevin, all healthy. Then along came Colin. Colin was Stillborn and Rites and Baptism was denied, as was Burial in the normal Section of the Cemetry, instead he was buried in another section. My Parents were not allowed to Register him, so explains my question mark above. To everyone but us he simply did not exist.

Following on from that my Mum had another child, Beverley, then two years later had me. I weighed in at 13lbs, but then my Mum had to have a Hysterectomy, which is where all producing organs are removed from a woman. (It was either that or Death for my Mum.)

Following on, when I was 21 my first wife and I had a Son, then another Son and then a Daughter. After the Daughter my Wife had major Problems and almost died until it was discovered that she had the Daughter's Twin still caught up in her Tubes and that it had started to grow. It is rare to happen, but it certainly does. They Operated and I signed Forms to agree to her having both Tubes tied off to prevent further pregnecies, but only one was actually tied off, the reason I was given was that they had no time due to her condition at the time.

Along came another Son, funny enough another 13lb one, but with major Problems. He was born with what is known as Reflux and no matter what we fed him it would come straight back up. We went to many Doctors and as you can imagine were going out of our minds watching the poor baby lose weight, until one Doctor refered us to a Specialist that picked it up straight away and sceduled him for an immediate Operation. Unfortunately there was Golden Staph in the Hospital and the Baby, infected, was then sinking so fast that he was Baptised and given last Rites. Yet somehow he survived! He was 19 when he was tragically run down by a car.

As can be imagined we never wanted to go through that again, but the Doctors refused to tie off the other tube and my wife fell Pregnant again. I took her to a Clinic in Sydney and they aborted her, but refused to tie off the other tube. A few years later we moved to Brisbane and my wife fell pregnant again. I found a Clinic that not only aborted, but after an explaination, actually tied off the other tube at the same time.

Just to show fairness and balance I want to add this. They always say, "Whatever you do, you will sooner or later pay for it."

My first wife and I split up, I got Married again and had a beautiful litte Girl, but when she was 3 months old, my youngest Son was hit by a Car and Killed. Then three years later, we had a Boy. Six months later my eldest Son shot himself. Just maybe that was our pay back from God for the two abortions?

Sorry for such a long Post, but I just thought that it could give some factual references for others? I am dead against Abortion being used to cover up mistakes made, but in Health and Medical Reasons and also Rape I personally think it is the Woman's final choice and would fight to the Death for that.

Same as the debate about stillborn babies? If they are not recognised as Live, how can a Fetus be? With that in mind, how can you Murder any thing not alive?

If a woman has a Hysterectomy is that also wrong because she can't Concieve? Not to me, Mate.

:thumbsup: :flowers:

Edited by Abacus 7, 11 April 2009 - 01:46 AM.


#11 Elise

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 02:17 AM

Abacus, a sad story, I am sorry for you.
One remark I would like to make, who is it to decide whether a fetus lives or not? Even if not recognised by law/church, you know it. Being a christian I would say, for God that child lived, indifferent if it was baptised, had the final rites or not, but that is my believe.

regards, Elise


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#12 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 02:33 AM

:flowers:

elise025,

I honestly did not Post for sympathy, it is a Story that shows a side often overlooked in Debates on this issue and some of the Hyprocracy that can be involved in it?

As it shows my Family and I are Catholic, but that really has no part in this? A woman certainly does have the right to decide, but back then, only the Husband could, that is the real crunch of my Story. I had to sign, not my wife!

I have never considered this fair and it was only after careful consideration with my wife that I signed.

Other people at the time were not so considerate as it is in other Countries in the World still today.

But you are right, Colin existed to my Family, if not to anyone else, but he was fulltime stillborn, not like the two we aborted. They were potential Tumours to Kill my Wife.

If only you could have seen the Pain and agony she used to be in when I used to come home work to find her in, before rushing her into Hospital many times for months? There was just no way after the problems with Alan for that to happen again, ever.

BTW, we still are the best of Mates and share not only the surviving kids and Grand Kids and Great Grand Kid, but also my latest two, we are all very close.


:thumbsup:

Edited by Abacus 7, 11 April 2009 - 02:59 AM.


#13 thnkvast

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 06:06 AM

Whether one believes abortion is murder pales beside the question, "How are you treating people based on this belief?"

I know a woman who rejected a marriage proposal, and he figured that if he couldn't have her, he'd fix it so nobody else would want her. He raped her. It was a valid threat at the time, because in close-knit communities like that you didn't leave home for several months and return without people figuring out why you did. The enforcers of this moral code were the most pious of the faithful, usually older women. The 'Why" didn't matter; they'd make sure people knew you were damaged goods.

Fast forward a number of decades. I did volunteer work for several years in a faith-based program serving the divorced and widowed. Since it was sponsored by the Catholic church, I heard all the arguments against abortion---and against birth control. I listened as a divorced woman preached to me how birth control destroys the respect a husband should have for his wife. Her own husband left her but she told ME how to maintain a marriage. It was a common attitude. So it doesn't surprise me to see the original question is phrased, "so how do you feel about THE PILL and about abortion?" (Emphasis mine.) Birth control always creeps in, doesn't it? About brth control: marriage is a big and sometimes difficult adjustment. You should be a couple for a few years before you're a bunch. You owe that stability to any children you might have.

In that program, a widowed older woman--the most pious of the faithful--approached everyone handing out little gold baby feet lapel pins. She works for one of those "rescue" operations and does her best to enforce the "proper" level of guilt and indignation one should feel concerning abortion. But some decades back she would have been the sort passing judgement on a woman who got pregnant out of wedlock, like the one I mentioned above. There were younger women in that program who were the up-and-coming most pious of the faithful; they protested at the local clinics. As they made their weekend plans it sounded more like a social gathering than a protest, especially when I heard, "Have you seen the cute new priest? I hope he stops by!" I really did hear that, and all too often.

Everybody draws the line somewhere. No excuses, now. The rhythm method, faulty as it is, is not natural but endorsed by the Vatican. NFP (natural family planning, also endorsed) may be more effective but is no more natural. There is nothing natural for any man or woman to pledge life long celibacy. You are preventing life from coming into the world, and I will not let anyone arguing about birth control split hairs over this.

So is abortion murder? I would prefer birth control be used rather than abortion in order to control family size, but I won't judge anyone who seeks an abortion. Why I won't should be obvious---I won't be connected in any way with the hypocrasy of the anti-abortion crowd.

My mother had a surprise pregnancy late in life. Since there were risks at that time, she discussed them with her obstetrician. He was the best in the area, Catholic, and told her in no uncertain terms that if it came down to her life or the baby's, he would do his best to save the baby. She got a nice Jewish obstetrician who respected her wishes. If she died, she would leave a widowed husband just beginning his career with a 5 & 7 year old, and an infant. I actually know how that feels. It was not the pregnancy but hormone changes due to it that kicked off the cancer that killed my wife days after our daughter's first birthday. I raised her alone, although I'm grateful for the help of family and neighbors. The loss wasn't just mine; it left a gaping hole in the social fabric around here. I didn't have the chance to choose between child and wife but if I could have, I would have chosen my wife in the blink of an eye. Our daughter never knew her mother; no matter, I held her while she cried for not having a mother.

Death comes in different forms. Have you ever heard of spiritual death? In the same way, murder isn't simply the ending of a life or a potential life. More important is how you treat others based on your convictions. If your treatment of others isn't up to snuff, it draws your convictions into question. That's called, "Christianity." At least by us Lutherans, it is.

#14 Elise

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 06:32 AM

Thnkvast, you have a point with saying that its all nice and easy to condamn abortion but otherwise not living up to it.
Now I leave the abortion for medical reasons outside, but I think its each persons obligation to live up to ones moral. And to condamn abortion BECAUSE you are catholic or BECAUSE you are ... fill in... is hypocracy. You need to be personal convinced and you need to have an argumentation for that.

regards, Elise


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#15 Nawtheasta

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Posted 11 April 2009 - 08:58 PM

Wow. I have been touched in a deep way by reading the moving and difficult circumstances of others posting here. I generally thought, before I married, that abortion was wrong. Since being married and my wife having a difficult time with carrying our second son my opinions have changed. ( He has just turned 14 and is fine, thank the Lord). Ultimately it is a woman’s decision. It is her body that is the vessel of development. To the question is abortion murder? It can be but it can also be a hard but necessary option for the person and/or family involved.
As parents we always need to make decisions that affect our children’s lives. Who can say that this responsibility does not extend back to conception? Maybe the decision to not complete a pregnancy is the most compassionate that can be made based on the situation. What of the unborn that may come later. Would it be fair if they are denied a chance for life because the mother is incapacitated or dies? It will always be sad though if an abortion occurs simply due to convenience.
The “when does life begin” question though is always puzzling to me. Leaving religious views aside, at no point in the process does “dead’ tissue enter into the event. A living egg and living sperm combine to start the progression to an independent entity. There is no dead or inert matter zone. We and all living things represent an unbroken line back to the beginnings of life on the planet.
It would be denying the dignity of life to believe that an abortion did not kill something. It most certainly turns living tissue to dead tissue. But this does not necessarily mean that an evil act has occurred. One can argue from a religious view point when the “soul” enters the being but that would be a different topic.
My Thoughts
Nawtheasta




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