Jump to content


 


Register a free account to unlock additional features at BleepingComputer.com
Welcome to BleepingComputer, a free community where people like yourself come together to discuss and learn how to use their computers. Using the site is easy and fun. As a guest, you can browse and view the various discussions in the forums, but can not create a new topic or reply to an existing one unless you are logged in. Other benefits of registering an account are subscribing to topics and forums, creating a blog, and having no ads shown anywhere on the site.


Click here to Register a free account now! or read our Welcome Guide to learn how to use this site.

Photo

Bush pushes for Patriot Act


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 Grinler

Grinler

    Lawrence Abrams


  • Admin
  • 43,716 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 09 June 2005 - 12:56 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush on Thursday credited the Patriot Act with helping to convict more than 200 terrorists and dismissed accusations that the law has violated civil liberties.


Link to full article


Civil Liberties being violated? America being protected? or Both?

BC AdBot (Login to Remove)

 


#2 tg1911

tg1911

    Lord Spam Magnet


  • Members
  • 19,274 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SW Louisiana
  • Local time:04:54 AM

Posted 09 June 2005 - 01:28 PM

Some critics of the Patriot Act have called for tempering its provisions that let police conduct secret searches of people's homes or businesses. However, defenders of the law say no abuses have been documented, so it should be renewed intact

YET!

Lisa Graves, the American Civil Liberties Union's senior counsel for legislative strategy, said the lack of a documented case of abuse doesn't mean the law doesn't violate civil liberties.

Exactly.

"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better
than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not
your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May
your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our
countrymen."   

~Samuel Adams, 1776

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." 

~Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the
governor, November 11, 1755

" 'Necessity' is the plea for every infringement of human liberty; it is the
argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

~William Pitt

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the
children of men as a whole experience it. . .Avoiding danger is no safer in
the long run than outright exposure. . . Life is either a daring adventure or
nothing."

~Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)



That says it all.
MOBO: GIGABYTE GA-MA790X-UD4P, CPU: Phenom II X4 955 Deneb BE, HS/F: CoolerMaster V8, RAM: 2 x 1G Kingston HyperX DDR2 800, VGA: ECS GeForce Black GTX 560, PSU: Antec TruePower Modular 750W, Soundcard: Asus Xonar D1, Case: CoolerMaster COSMOS 1000, Storage: Internal - 2 x Seagate 250GB SATA, 2 x WD 1TB SATA; External - Seagate 500GB USB, WD 640GB eSATA, 3 x WD 1TB eSATA

Become a BleepingComputer fan: Facebook

#3 jgweed

jgweed

  • Members
  • 28,473 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Il.
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 09 June 2005 - 01:32 PM

There is now an attempt to expand some of the governmental powers to secure information not subject to judicial review. In an article at Cnet, the ACLU is quoted as saying about these new provisions:

"In a move antithetical to our Constitution, the new 'administrative subpoena' authority would let the FBI write and approve its own search orders for intelligence investigations, without prior judicial approval," the group said in a statement. "Americans have a reasonable expectation that their federal government will not gather records about their health, their wealth and the transactions of their daily life without probable cause of a crime and without a court order."

http://news.com.com/2061-10789_3-5736302.h...36302&subj=news


One only has to think of the results of abuses of the Courts of Star Chamber in England, or the IRS's ability to try, convict, and punish individuals outside of the judicial system and common law, to agree with the ACLU statement.
Regards,
John

Edited by jgweed, 09 June 2005 - 01:34 PM.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#4 nmdamgud

nmdamgud

  • Members
  • 357 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Location:santa fe, new mexico
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 09 June 2005 - 10:21 PM

so then, my question to you is this: does that mean we allow terrorists to co-exist in our country, to live freely to plot and plan, to USE these very blessings of "freedom"........to attempt to bring down the very country and people who have granted them these rights?

there is a fine line between "use" and "abuse"......on BOTH sides.

#5 Pandy

Pandy

    Bleepin' Panda


  • Members
  • 9,562 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 10 June 2005 - 04:11 PM

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong IMO. For me.. I would give ANYTHING to be able to feel safe in my country. ANYTHING. If the Effabeeye wants to know something from me all they gotta do is ask. LOL Thats the way I look at it. Freedom? Hmm I would not expect to feel like I have lost any "freedom" if the Government has records on me. They all ready do.. I would not worry about it in my everyday life as I pursue the various things that make me happy. I would rather feel FREE from worry about a terrorist attack in my STATE or town or country.

9-11-01

I don't everevereverever want to see something like that happen again anywhere in my country. :thumbsup: NEVER

Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight.

Hide not your talents. They for use were made. What's a sundial in the shade?

~ Benjamin Franklin

I am a Bleeping Computer fan! Are you?

Facebook

Follow us on Twitter


#6 rigel

rigel

    FD-BC


  • Members
  • 12,944 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Carolina - USA
  • Local time:06:54 AM

Posted 11 June 2005 - 09:05 PM

Hmmmm...

At one point in my life, I thought it was great the the government oversaw everything and I was protected.

That ain't gonna happen. The key is not more law. There are enough laws in this country to convict anyone of any wrong doing. I expect the law/government to protect me, but I also expect the line between them and me to be firm and bold.

Government uses the line of protecting the people to do all sorts of things. Now don't get me wrong... I believe that seatbelts should be worn (I am a firefighter/medic/father) but do not feel the government has the right to say so. I believe that second hand smoke is dangerous, but do not believe that they should be able to tell a restaurant owner that they have to be "smoke free." What happens when they say I can't have a Whopper sandwich at Burger King because I am too fat... they need to save me from myself??? One last thing on this line... own a 2005 new car??? Check to see if it has a black box in it... The owners manual will state if it exists - and if it does - it can be used against YOU in court. Yes your car can testify against its owner.

Is this off topic? Okay you can beat me but......

We should NEVER give away our personal freedoms. Once we open the door to further access to our lives, that right is gone.

Okay... how do we stop terrorism?

YOU Become involved. Get you hands in your community. It is "We the People." I feel that as a group/unit/community/state/country we can do anything. That is the way we won our wars and solved our problems. Want to see power? Look at what happens after a disaster. We come together and kick butt.

Locally, Emergency Management Training is on going since 9-11. Our department has trained in dealing with weapons of mass distruction, and unified incident command training. We also trained with our local health department (Dept of Health and Enviromental Control) in bioterrorism. That was only the begining; There is no end.

Feel better? I hope so, but I also realize that locks only keep an honest man honest. Prevention is great, and it has its victories, but I don't think there is a way to stop a man who:
Has a death wish and wants to hurt you.
Who thinks they will be in heaven after killing tons of people for their cause.
Who can walk into a public place with themself infected with a virus and spread it.

Give the agencies what they need to fight without destroying the framework that made the country great.

My three cents..
Rigel

"In a world where you can be anything, be yourself." ~ unknown

"Fall in love with someone who deserves your heart. Not someone who plays with it. Will Smith


#7 yano

yano

    I can see what you post!


  • Members
  • 6,469 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 13 June 2005 - 12:33 AM

As far as I'm concerned, all of this airport security--the cameras, the questions, the screenings, the searches--is just one more way of reducing your liberty and reminding you that they can bleep with you anytime they want. Because that's the way Americans are now. They're willing to trade away a little of their freedom in exchange for the feeling---the illusion---of security.

Exactly.

#8 efizzer

efizzer

  • Members
  • 360 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:06:54 AM

Posted 13 June 2005 - 12:52 PM

I agree with you yano, I think i'm going to move to Bermuda. I actually had a nightmare where George Jr. made it so a president can run more than two terms. I actually don't feel any safer from when I felt right after 9/11. I would rant, but i don't think it'll help.....
Posted Image

We're going to make the merry-go-round go faster, so everyone needs to hang on tighter-just to keep from being thrown to the wolves.

#9 jgweed

jgweed

  • Members
  • 28,473 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Il.
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 18 June 2005 - 01:06 AM

And on another note, our friends at the Dept of Justice want ISPs to retain more and more detailed records of people's use of the internet, and for longer times.
I always though that the federal government existed to protect the rights and liberties of it's citizens, not find new ways to invade their privacy.
Regards,
John

Edited by jgweed, 18 June 2005 - 01:07 AM.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#10 timothy

timothy

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Location:Detriot City.
  • Local time:06:54 AM

Posted 19 June 2005 - 11:28 AM

Enabling Act Sections similar to Patriot Act edicts:

Enabling Act, Section 114: Restrictions on personal liberty: Patriot Act: Incipient National ID card (Portland Oregonian, June 12, 2005 ) may soon be using actual DNA samples as part of its data base.



Enabling Act, Section 118: Removal of free expression, of opinion. Patriot Act: Just recently, at a Bush rally, a youth was roundly and soundly ejected for the crime of “wrong T-Shirt wearing.”



Enabling Act, Sections 117, 115 and 153: Removal of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications. Patriot Act supports this implicitly: Not only via National ID card but also via broad and complete access to sensitive health, business, financial and educational records of everyone, anywhere, any time. As a matter of fact, incursions into library records will allow the FBI to determine who checked out what books, and take action against individuals who may be reading the “wrong” material.



Enabling Act, Section 115: House-Searches. No more warrants were needed for house searches. Just bust in and grab whatever evidence, and whoever seems to be acting suspiciously, and cart ‘em off. Patriot Act: Secret searches, surveillance, seizure of property and arrests of individuals without “proper cause” are now a staple of the Patriot Act, and have already been successfully implemented.





But, the major beast hiding in the political “bushes” right now, is more dangerous and more devastating to any and all of us here in America than anything coming before it, and that is the parallel between what the Nazis did to their constitution coupled with what we are about to do to ours:



The Nazis, in their infamous February 28 decree, successfully attacked the German constitution. The Goverment then in place was informed that the sate was in danger, and that emergency procedures were necessary. Thus, all the constitution’s sections mentioned above, i.e. 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 were suspended indefinitely; Period.



At this moment, in our own government, the supplemental budget bill, passed unanimously (100-0) on May 11, 2005, which assigns 82 billion dollars more to the war in Iraq, contains a provision establishing “The Sunset Commission:” A committee composed of legislators whose job it will be to revise all branches of the federal government including the Constitution. Yes, this is really happening. Unless all citizens realize this, and rise up in protest, our government, as we know it – our wonderful constitution as we know it – will cease to exist as we know it!



And, twenty senators right here in the USA not only refused to co sponsor the anti lynching reolution passed on June 14, 2005, but refused a roll-call vote so they wouldn’t have to put their names on this legislation.



Guantanamo Bay is being kept open. Comments by bleep Cheney are: “This is where the bad people are.” Donald Rumsfeld, on July 15 (via Chicago Tribune News Service) states “The real problem is not Guantanamo Bay . Traditional doctrines covering criminals and military prisoners do not apply well enough.” With this statement, he casts aside the Geneva Conventions, which, after all, Alberto Gonzales, our current Attorney General, has described as “quaint.”



Is anyone at all aware that there are children under the age of fifteen in custody at Guantanamo Bay (as there were in Abu Ghraib) and that these children are as routinely, coldly and casually abused as their adult fellow inmates?



Yesterday, in Germany , farmers stood in their fields beside the rail-road tracks where they smiled, waved, and drew their fingers across their throats in the traditional “death” gesture when the cattle-cars went past.



Yesterday, in Germany , no one tore down the loudspeakers booming propaganda speeches at every bus stop in Berlin . No one tore down the propaganda posters which not only depicted hideous cartoons of “devil Jews” but also showed scary images of people who did not vote “correctly” at elections being hauled away because voting “No” was a crime.



Today, we accept quite nonchalantly that – according to verified and actual memos (which no one has even denied exist) -- that the invasion of Iraq was planned two years in advance by Dubbya in concert with Tony Blair. No one has raised even the slightest protest against persons being held indefinitely, without cause, and without access to any kind of legal or other resources at Guantanamo Bay . No one seems to care that the Patriot Act in all its Nazi-inspired glory is being reviewed in order to make it a permanent fixture of government.



Tomorrow, then, when we watch folks being carted off adults and children both – to detention centers, both in the USA and overseas, will we smile, and wave, and draw our fingers across out throats in the traditional gesture of death?



My biggest fear is the prevalent shrug, with its attitude of, “Well as long as it isn’t in my back yard, or involving my family, what the heck do I care.” That is the ultimate enabling; giving fascism everything it needs to become all-powerful. . And, when it’s too late, then what? World War III? Who’s gonna be around to fight it? Please advise…

#11 ericwhays

ericwhays

  • Members
  • 15 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:33 PM

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the
children of men as a whole experience it. . .Avoiding danger is no safer in
the long run than outright exposure. . . Life is either a daring adventure or
nothing."

~Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)


That says it all.

Can you really quote Helen Keller without giggling a little inside? :thumbsup:

#12 dpb510

dpb510

  • Members
  • 55 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Local time:06:54 AM

Posted 27 July 2005 - 10:57 PM

Man this is great! Actual relevant discourse on the MOST important topic facing our country and the free world. Our freedoms protected by the Constitution.

tg1911- Thanks for all the great quotes. I've always wished that more people could be exposed to those thoughts.
Wait. There may be no documented abuse of this particular law. But. Remember Abu Ghuraib prison? In case any one forgot, here's a little reminder: http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/
According to Rumsfeld, there are many more pictures and at least one video that is "worse" than what we have already seen. The Pentagon also acknowledges more pictures and videos and says that it will try to keep them from getting out. The Army has already seized computers, hard drives and disks containing pictures by U.S. military. Donald Rumsfeld Testimony Before Senate Armed Services Committee.
And they're tring to stop us from seeing these "worse" pictures and video.
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFre...?ID=18811&c=206
If this isn't documented abuse, please check your hat at the door of Auschwitz.
How are we to believe that there will be no abuse of this law, from people, who seem to think that torture isn't abuse?!?

John. I'm not familiar with the Courts of Star Chamber.(more info please) But the abuse of the US citizen by the IRS, is a perfect example.

nmdamgud. Do you really think that we live in an vacuum? And the actions of our so called leaders, won't come home to bite us? Don't get me wrong. We can't allow terrorist acts. But maybe if the 200,000,000,000 had been spent on making nice, we wouldn't be in this predicament.
Now this does't answer your question, so maybe you should ask some other questions about 9/11. Like, how do terrorists, who couldn't even fly a piper cub, where able to make 'expert maneuvers' in a jet that every one states is hard to fly, before slamming into the Pentagon?

Pandy. None of us want to see an event like 9/11 again. But as tg1911 shows in his quotes and timothys history of Nazi Germany. When you are willing to give up your god given constitutional rights for security, you gain neither and lose both.

efizzer you must have prophetic dreams. Cause there are congressional whispers of your terrible dream, on the hill right now. And if this doesn't work. They're tring to change the law so Arnie can run for president. Oh! We're all going to Bermuda with you!

Timothy. What a fantastic history lesson for us all. Do you teach. Or prolific reader. I'm from Oregon also. A BLUE state.
My step dads side of the family were captured and held in the German concentration camps, where most were tortured and murdered. Except for my tough as nails aunt. Now she wouldn't really speak about the camps. But mostly she would explained to us the manor in which Hitler came to power. And before she died in the early 80's, she began to warn us that here in our own country, we're heading down this same path of destruction as did Hitler lead the German people!

I know that my mouth run nth over here and in many of my other posts. As you can tell this subject is very close to my heart. For what is more important than our freedom? Some may say, the intake of air, water, and food. And I say that is only existing. Rocks, plants, and animals exist. We humans are meant for so much more. And only when we are truly free, are able to search out what we are meant to be!
..........dpb..........

#13 tg1911

tg1911

    Lord Spam Magnet


  • Members
  • 19,274 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SW Louisiana
  • Local time:04:54 AM

Posted 28 July 2005 - 12:45 AM

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the
children of men as a whole experience it. . .Avoiding danger is no safer in
the long run than outright exposure. . . Life is either a daring adventure or
nothing."

~Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)


That says it all.

Can you really quote Helen Keller without giggling a little inside? :thumbsup:

1880 Born on June 27 in Tuscumbia, Alabama.

1882 As a result of illness, became deaf and blind.

1887 Met Anne Sullivan.

1900 Entered Radcliffe College, becoming the first deafblind person to have ever enrolled at an institution of higher learning.

1903 The Story of My Life is published - first in a series of articles in The Ladies' Home Journal, and then as a book.

1904 Graduated from Radcliffe College, becoming the first deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree.

1907 Helen writes a groundbreaking article for The Ladies' Home Journal in an effort to prevent blindness among infants caused by the mother's venereal disease. (She rallies forces to convince the medical establishment to treat children's eyes at birth with a cleansing solution as a regular procedure.)

1908 Publication of The World I Live In.

1909 Becomes a socialist and a suffragist.

1912 Publicly speaks out in favor of birth control, and in support of Margaret Sanger's work

1914 Demonstrates with the Woman's Peace Party to call for peace in Europe; after the demonstration, she makes an impassioned speech for pacifism and socialism in crowded Carnegie Hall.

1915 Writes articles publicly denouncing Rockefeller as a "monster of Capitalism," responsible for the Ludlow Massacre, (at his coal mine in Ludlow, Colorado) where men, women, and children were killed in a bloody confrontation between strikers and the militia.

1916 Openly supports the Industrial Workers of the World.

1917 Donates money to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and writes a supportive article in the NAACP Journal.

1918 Helps found the American Civil Liberties Union to fight for freedom of speech.

1919 Stars in Deliverance, a silent movie about her life; supports Actors Equity Union's strike by refusing to cross the picket line to attend the opening.

1924 Began to work for the American Federation for the Blind.

1924 Campaigns for Robert LaFollette, a Progressive running for president as a third-party candidate.

1929 Publication of Midstream: My Later Life.

1931 Met King George and Queen Mary at Buckingham Palace, who were said to be deeply impressed by Helen’s ability to understand what people said through touch.

1936 Ann Sullivan died on October 20.

1946 Visited injured soldiers.

1948 Visits "the black silent hole" that had once been Hiroshima and Nagasaki and recommits herself to the anti-war movement.

1955 Her book "Teacher", about Anne Sullivan, was published.

1961 Suffers first stroke; retires from public life.

1964 Received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Lyndon Johnson.

1965 Elected to the Women’s Hall of Fame at the New York World’s Fair.

1968 Died on June 1.

The Truth about Helen Keller
The life of Helen Keller

I don't have any problem quoting her, without giggling.
MOBO: GIGABYTE GA-MA790X-UD4P, CPU: Phenom II X4 955 Deneb BE, HS/F: CoolerMaster V8, RAM: 2 x 1G Kingston HyperX DDR2 800, VGA: ECS GeForce Black GTX 560, PSU: Antec TruePower Modular 750W, Soundcard: Asus Xonar D1, Case: CoolerMaster COSMOS 1000, Storage: Internal - 2 x Seagate 250GB SATA, 2 x WD 1TB SATA; External - Seagate 500GB USB, WD 640GB eSATA, 3 x WD 1TB eSATA

Become a BleepingComputer fan: Facebook

#14 Pandy

Pandy

    Bleepin' Panda


  • Members
  • 9,562 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 28 July 2005 - 12:55 AM

Helen Keller was a wonder and a marvel.

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight.

Hide not your talents. They for use were made. What's a sundial in the shade?

~ Benjamin Franklin

I am a Bleeping Computer fan! Are you?

Facebook

Follow us on Twitter


#15 Scarlett

Scarlett

    Bleeping Diva


  • Members
  • 7,479 posts
  • OFFLINE
  •  
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:As always I'm beside myself ;)
  • Local time:05:54 AM

Posted 28 July 2005 - 06:55 PM

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the
children of men as a whole experience it. . .Avoiding danger is no safer in
the long run than outright exposure. . . Life is either a daring adventure or
nothing."

~Helen Keller (1880 - 1968)


That says it all.

Can you really quote Helen Keller without giggling a little inside? :thumbsup:

No. I giggle at jokes, comedians and buffoons. But never at an amazing woman, such as Hellen Keller. I guess it is all where ones priorities lie. :flowers:
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users