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XP upgrade


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#1 ozzieostrige

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 06:40 PM

Hi,
I am still using WIN98SE but have to upgrade to XP because I have to keep tax records for a part time business and the software I am using is no longer supported for W98. Recently this has been happening more and more with various software producers only supporting XP and newer OS's to the point that I can no longer continue using W98 exclusively.

My problem is that I have heaps of software that is still working happily under W98 (some have even been dragged over from W95), however I understand that XP can be pretty fussy with what it will work with and for this reason I would like to configure a dual boot system when I do the upgrade.

I bought a full version of XP PRO SP2 just before Microsoft withdrew it from sale so software wise I am all set to go.

Hardware is another matter though. I currently run a raid mother board which I have used to unlock the tertiary IDE ports so I can run extra IDE devices. Let me explain. My boot drive (C:) 40G only contains the W98 OS (apart from several applications that won't install to other drives). D: is probably the only syquest 270MEG cartridge drive left on the planet, but I don't want to ditch it because I have about a dozen cartridges that are loaded with various apps and I find this quite handy. E & F drives are partitioned on an 80G drive with E: containing most of my apps and F: used mainly for backups etc. A CD burner (I:) & a dual layer DVD burner (J:) completes the array apart from a LS120 floppy (a:).

The IDE configuration from memory goes like this. Primary Master: LS120, Primary Slave CD burner, Secondary Master: Syquest drive, Secondary Slave: DVD burner. Tertiary Master: (via Raid) C: & Tertiary slave (via Raid) E: & F: .

This arrangement has served me well for a number of years with the only small annoyance being that on boot up the system reports that there is no boot partition on the LS120. I proceed simply by pressing the space bar and the system then loads C: and boots normally.

I intend to purchase a 500G IDE drive that I will install as C: and this will be partitioned into 2 drives, one for XP and the other for W98. I would like to copy everything from the existing C: onto the second partition of the new drive and because this is the smaller drive I would then discard it. I would then have XP on one partition of the new drive and W98 on the second. My applications would remain on the existing 80G drive and be accessible to both XP & W98. It is my intention to try to use XP whenever possible, but if it won't work with an app that I need I would like to be able to reboot into W98.

I hope this is all acheivable but as this represents major software & hardware surgery to my system I will probably need some pretty serious assistance and a fair amount of hand holding through all of this.

Are any of you able and willing to assist?

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#2 hamluis

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 10:56 AM

Hi :thumbsup:.

Well...I'll begin :flowers:, others will add.

If you are going to dual-boot, I suggest using two different hard drives. Although you can put both operating systems on the same drive...that's a risk that users should avoid, since it's easy to just use a second drive. That way, the odds of one hard drive failure preventing access/use of both drives...is lowered.

The only way that I know of to reliable move an entire partition from one hard drive to another...is to use disk-imaging software to clone the existing C: partition...from Old Drive to New Drive. Software such as Norton Ghost and Acronis True Image (and others I have no experience with) will enable a disk image to be created on another hard drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_image

I believe that this is the only reliable way of doing such, but I've been wrong before and there are very few situations in computing that seem to have only one path of approach.

In any case, that is what I would do if I wanted to do such.

As for the dual-boot, the key thing to do is to get your Win 98 partition set up first, then do the XP install. Do so simplifies the process of dual-booting.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/306559

<<My applications would remain on the existing 80G drive and be accessible to both XP & W98.>>

No, they won't. Applications are installed in a given O/S and that is the only O/S that can run those applications, unless you also install them in additional partitions with operating systems. You will be able to see all the files in the Win 98 install from your XP install...but you won't be able to run any programs or Windows functions on the Win 98 install.

That's why the dual-boot is necessary...you have not the intent to install your applications anew on XP.

As for the application problems you mention...I'm still using applications developed/released in 2000 on my XP system and I've not done anything other than simply install them with no problems. I don't game and I don't have any 16-bit applications...but XP even has a compatibility mode for users who want to run older games/programs.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/h.../appcompat.mspx

So maybe you are making this more complicated than it really is...and don't even require a dual-boot (but you can still do so without needing it).

The only true test of application compatibility...is to attempt install/run of same on XP, IMO.

Louis

Edited by hamluis, 20 December 2008 - 10:57 AM.


#3 ozzieostrige

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 08:30 AM

Hi Hamluis,

Thanks for the info and links.
I just went out and bought a Western Digital 500Gb drive.

After reading the info you supplied I think the easiest way to do this is to make the first partition on the new drive W98 and the second XP. This would mean that as far as the system is concerned nothing would change. ie the OS is on C: and the apps on E:. Now I know that W98 needs FAT32 so C: will have to be formatted with this. If the second partition (I'll call it D:) is formatted NTFS it won't be able to see the existing apps will this matter? Should I format it FAT32 also so I can run existing setup files in compatability mode? Will XP be happy with this? What size should I make the XP partition.

As for imaging the files across from the existing drive to the new one. I have had some problems in the past using Power Quest Disk image and Acronis true image. The last time I upgraded my hard drives I stuffed around for ages trying to use an external drive to write the image only to find it kept locking up, so in desperation I went looking for another solution. I came across an app called XXcopy and went looking for more info on it. I eventually found a long article extolling the virtues of xxcopy when compared to other methods and after wading through this right at the end I found this:

Here's a tip from a reader named Yvette who chose to share a neat restore technique using XCOPY32:
"I am a computer technician who has had to restore systems for my customers many times, and as you know, when it comes to upgrading a hard drive, the process can be tedious. For quite some time now, I have been using the XCOPY32.EXE option to accomplish this task, quickly, effortlessly and painlessly:
After installing a new hard drive (i.e., FDISK and FORMAT) as a SLAVE drive, from the Windows RUN command line, type the following:
XCOPY32 C:\*.* D:\*.* /c /h /e /k
This command and its related switches will flawlessly copy the entire contents of one hard drive to another. Although the Windows SWAP file cannot be copied over, as you know, it will be reconstructed automatically when the new drive is booted up as PRIMARY. This method has yet to fail me. Once copied, the SLAVE drive can then be switched over to MASTER, and the system will boot up as though no changes were ever made. Rather than setting up and using the RAID technology, I find this method of system recovery to be much easier and less expensive for the average home user. I have suggested to my customers that they install a secondary HDD in their computers as a backup drive, and to use the XCOPY32 command regularly to backup their entire system." Thanks, Yvette!

I tried this and it worked perfectly, so I plan on using this again when copying W98 across to the new drive.

Regards

Ozzie

#4 ozzieostrige

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 07:52 PM

Hello again,

Well on Boxing Day I decided to throw caution to the winds and attempt the upgrade.

It wasn't long before things started turning bad and after drifting back and forth trying various things I decided to document the steps as I was doing them. So here goes.

I started with
c: 80Gb Western Digital
d: Syquest 270M removable cartridge
E&F: partitions on Samsung 300Gb drive

BTW these are not the same as I reported before. :thumbsup: The drives I reported previously were quoted from memory and turned out to be the configuration before my last upgrade.

1. I set the new drive (ND) to slave, then replaced the samsung with ND

2. Fdisk ND for single FAT32 partition.

3. format /s ND

4. Disconnect c: (80G) and after seting ND jumper to master connect it in it's place.

5. Reconnect E&F

6. Attempt to boot. This is where I came to a grinding halt as the post went Ok & recognised the drives but then reported: BOOT ERROR BOOT FROM CD: DISK BOOT FAILURE INSERT SYSTEM DISK & PRESS ENTER.

7. I removed ND, reconnected C: & booted into Windows all was OK but drive letter assignments had changed. (D: was now F:, E: was now D: & F: was now E:)

8. Reconnected ND as slave as before and xcopy C:\*.* d:\*.* /c /h /e /k as in my previous post. All appeared Ok

9. Returned ND c: master & e&f as before.

10. Booted - Same error

11. Reverted to original config as before and rebooted into windows same results as previously

At this time I thought that maybe the BIOS wasn't happy with the larger drive so I checked and my BIOS version was FF and there was an FK version available so I saved my BIOS and flashed to the later version.

This didn't makke any difference though.

I have now noticed that apart from not being able to find the applications at start up because of the changed drive assignments, explorer (not IE) keeps coming up with an illegal operation error and shuts down.

I seem to have backed myself into a corner. If anyone can help I would appreciate it.

One thing I did partially try was when it wanted to boot from the CD which BTW doesn't make sense as the boot sequence set in the BIOS is Drive 0 with all others disabled. Anyway I tried putting the XP installation CD in and allowed it to do it's thing. It ground away happily and eventually asked me if I wanted to continue with the install. At this point I backed off because the info I was given before was that W98 had to be installed before XP, but I wonder what would happen is I let it continue?

What else can I try?

Regards

Ozzie

#5 hamluis

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 09:22 PM

You are making this entire operation...more difficult than it has to be.

Basic principles of O/S installation in my world:

a. Never put two operating systems on the same hard drive.

b. Install programs on same C: partitions with O/Ses.

c. Any other hard drive space can be used for as many storage partitions for data...as user desires.

d. Remove/disconnect all unnecessary drives...when attempting system install.

e. If disk is not new, run diagnostic on hard drive before even beginning to install anything on it.

I cannot tell you what to try, you seem intent on pursuing your own methods for your own reasons, whether those are the best methods or not. I'm not even sure I understand what it is that you are trying to do, doing a dual-boot just isn't that tough, neither is installing any version of Windows.

Louis

Edited by hamluis, 26 December 2008 - 09:23 PM.


#6 ozzieostrige

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 05:12 PM

Hi Hamluis,

I'm sorry if I am coming across as being pigheaded, believe me that is not my intention at all. I have carefully read and reread your advice and links and taken all you said on board.

I understand what you are saying regarding separate drives for each OS & data but you see my machine is already set up with W98 on c: and data on d: (now f:) & e: (now d:). I did this several years ago thinking that it would make future upgrades easier and also as a bit of a failsafe. If c: crashes, I can replace it without losing and having to reinstall my apps. Also I don't think I can install any more drives to cater for the XP. I am using all available IDE ports, so despite your advice to install each OS on it's own drive, I don't think I have any other choice but to install each OS on the one drive. If you can suggest any solution to this dilemma please do so.

One of the things I learned from your first reply was that W98 had to be installed & working before attempting to install XP so with that in mind as a first step I thought that it would be easiest to just replace c: with a clone of itself. I thought the drive assignments would remain the same but although everything appeared to progress as normal on startup for some reason the system kept reporting that it couldn't boot from the clone and when I reverted to the original drive the drive assignments had changed.

I very reluctantly reflashed the BIOS because after several unsuccessful attempts to install the new drive with different size partitions & reformatting etc, I thought the older BIOS may have been the problem. It appears that this is not the case (but at least now I have the latest version of the BIOS)

Correct me if I am wrong but even if I removed all of the other drives, I would be very surprised if the new drive successfully booted, for some reason the system files are not being recognised by the BIOS during the POST even before the OS, when present begins to load.

Please don't think you are wasting your time and continue to assist me with this, I assure you I am trying to follow your advice.


Regards

Ozzie

#7 hamluis

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 05:41 PM

I can't answer some of your questions, but I will try with those where I think I have something to contribute :thumbsup:.

FWIW: One of my most basic principles with computers is...always be ready to do a clean install, when needed. A corollary of that is...what I thought best yesterday...may not be the best plan of attack today...so I don't marry myself to any decisions made before...the moment I make them.

Regardless of what you may have thought in the past...you don't have to stay with such when it appears cumbersome and appears not to serve your best interests.

<<Correct me if I am wrong but even if I removed all of the other drives, I would be very surprised if the new drive successfully booted, for some reason the system files are not being recognised by the BIOS during the POST even before the OS, when present begins to load.>>

The answer is...it depends on how you made your clone drive/partition.

I use Partition Magic 8.0 to clone partitions. It's simple...I point, it clones an identical copy of my C: to another drive and assigns it the letter F:. This letter assigned is perfect, since I already have C: (boot partition), D: (optical drive), and E: (500GB storage drive) attached. And I know that F: is only temporarily attached, since it's sole purpose is to provide me with a larger hard drive or a better one.

When I remove my C: drive from the system and replace it with my cloned F: drive...I temporarily disconnect every other drive except my optical because these are the only two drives XP sees when it is first installed...and I don't want to muddle the install/change of the guard.

My new drive boots right up as C: because it is the only hard drive attached and it is identical with the one I had been using. The only hiccup of sorts in the entire switch occurred because XP recognized that a different/larger hard drive was being used and prompted me for activation...strictly minor, dispensed with in seconds.

I reattached the drives I wanted to use and I've been moving forward ever since.

Louis

#8 ozzieostrige

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 07:31 PM

Hi Hamluis,

Thanks for the reply and the advice.

I had been using FDISK and FORMAT to partition the new disk which wasn't working.

After reading your reply I decided to give partitionmagic a try but I knew I didn't have ver8. I checked and mine is ver7. One of the operations is copy a partition so I took a deep breath and dived in. It took ages but by the end of it I now have a bootable 500Gb disk with Win98Se installed on it and it works :thumbsup:

Ok, I think, now all I have to do is expand the partition to cover the entire disk and this will give me plenty of room for transferring my apps across. This will contain all of my Win98 apps and OS on the one drive, as you advised.

Then I can buy another 500Gb drive and install XP + apps on that and all should be sweet with both OS's on their own drives, and the number of physical drives not changing.

I went back into PM and chose resize partition. It went through it's paces but it reckoned the Max size I can have for a fat 32 partition is 262,201.5Mb, it reported Free Space after the operation would be 214,736 Mb and although the instructions said I would be able to chose the cluster size, it reported the only option as 32K, also it displayed a warning saying the partition crossed the 1024 cylinder boundary and may not be bootable.

If I were to accept this and go ahead about half the disk would still be unallocated space. The only way I know of using this space is to make another partition. Do you know of any other ways around this?

Am I going to find the same thing when I get to installing XP?

These may be baby steps, but I think I am getting somewhere with this.

Ozzie

#9 hamluis

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:40 PM

We all take baby steps :thumbsup:, it helps to keep from falling over.

I'm pretty sure that I used PM 7 with XP earlier with no problems, so I don't think that's an area of concern.

Normally, I don't specify a cluster size for a partition in PM, just going with the default. A few years, I played around with various cluster sizes and concluded that the default choices worked best for all types/sizes of files.

If you cloned/copied the partition...everything on it was transferred to the other drive.

The warning about the 1024 cylinder boundary is standard. I don't think it means anything, I've never seen any impact from it and I've always been able to boot from situations when that popped up. I just ignore it.

I don't know anything about that max partition limit...I stopped using FAT32 years ago, but I can think of no reason for it.

Interesting read here, since you are going with FAT32: http://windowsitpro.com/article/articleid/...fs-and-fat.html

Louis

#10 hometech

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 08:47 PM

the easiest way to do what you wanted to do would have been to use wd data lifeguard tools, would have took maybe an hour! if you have fast internet here is wd address

http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?lang=en

just click and follow your product to the software

#11 ozzieostrige

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:49 PM

Hi All,

Well thanks to the excellent advice I have received I now have all of Win98SE on the 500Gig drive (OS on C: and applications on D: and data on E:).

The old Samsung 300 Gig drive is now redundant but I won't wipe it just yet. It will eventually return to the USB external drive box it used to be in.

I have just returned from buying a second 500Gig drive which I will now install XP and it's apps & data on.

Just a couple of questions before I blunder blindly on:

Is there any restrictions with partition sizes when using XP?

If I partition the drive to FAT32, will I be able to eventually got to NTFS without loss of data?

Should I now remove the WIN98SE drive so XP thinks it is the only OS on the system for the install. From what I have learned recently, I think that I should leave it in place.

When I install XP will it automatically set up the duel boot parameters and will I have a choice of which OS I can boot up with. For a start I would like to boot into W98 but as time goes on and I learn to trust XP more I'd like to have the option of changing the boot drive, or will it just boot into the drive that the system sees as C: meaning I will have to physically change the status of the drives?

Leaping lightyears ahead, when I decide to ditch W98 altogether, is it simply a matter of disconnecting the W98 drive?

Sorry if these questions seem stupid but I don't want to go ahead and do something that I find later is wrong but it is too late to undo it.

As always any help and advice is appreciated.

Thank You

Ozzie




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