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Fitna---does It Depict Reality?


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#1 buddy215

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 01:10 PM

The Film FITNA

I have watched the film and can state that I saw no new or earth shaking revelations.
Is there any doubt that there is an organized Islamic movement to conquer and destroy Western society?
Does Wilders misquote the Quran or use fake imagery?

I find it ironic that the Islamists are outraged that they are being depicted as a violent society and then they threaten and carry out violence to protest the film, cartoons, books,etc..

The European politicians that profess disgust with the film, are in my opinion, a bunch of cowards.

As for me, I might have a different take on Islamists if there was a loud outcry against the Imams and terrorists organizations supported by them. All I ever hear are weak excuses and lies from the Islamists.

The film FITNA can be viewed in Google Videos. It is 17 minutes long.
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded and the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics...you are all stardust.”Lawrence M. Krauss
A 1792 U.S. penny, designed in part by Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, reads “Liberty Parent of Science & Industry.”

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#2 ussr1943

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 10:47 PM

Well it's been a long time BC,

Firstly: It seems like you already had a biased view before watching the film, which only strengthened it. The only way to promote world peace and understanding is to approach all points with an open view.

Have you ever contacted a local mosque, or tried to contact a local Islamic organization to ask their views on current world affairs, especially "extremism"? I urge you to do so, I believe that will have a greater effect on you than any impersonal contact via internet.

There are extremists in every religion, Islam is normally in the view of the world media cameras though, therefore many people equate terrorist/ extremists to be Muslims. People forget groups such as the KKK in America who claim "God only love pure white people, and wants all non-whites to die."

Lastly, When was the last time you've turned on the news and heard something good about the middle east culture, or religions lately? The media is biased, focusing more on deaths and tradgedies, because bluntly ,that's what sells. Even worse is the fact that the media is such an obvious tool for terrorists, they need it. They need, and crave the attention they receive by the media, and we keep feeding them, because of our own culture's sick desire to hear about how innocent people are killed.
"Ideas are far more powerful than guns."
"The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards -- and even then I have my doubts." --Eugene H. Spafford
"One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"

#3 buddy215

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 06:54 AM

The media is not responsible for the Quranic verses quoted in the film. The media is not responsible for the thousands of madrasas that teach young, impressionable, kids to hate nonbelievers in particular Europeans and Americans.

If the mainstream Islamists want to end the "bad press" they have to condemn the extremists loud and clear. What are the chances of that happening?

Pointing out that there is extremism in every religion, is in my view, not a valid reason or excuse for Islamic extremism. The film is not about promoting one religion over another.

Why have so many Islamists migrated to Western countries? Is it because they recognized and desired the freedoms, safety and economic opportunities that were lacking in their home countries?
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded and the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics...you are all stardust.”Lawrence M. Krauss
A 1792 U.S. penny, designed in part by Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, reads “Liberty Parent of Science & Industry.”

#4 ussr1943

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:27 PM

If the mainstream Islamists want to end the "bad press" they have to condemn the extremists loud and clear. What are the chances of that happening?


"When people ask "Why don't Muslims speak out against terrorism", the answer is: They do." For whatever reason, our Western media isn't doing a very good job at covering it. Below are links to (at minimum) several hundred Muslim political and religious leaders speaking out against and condemning terrorism."

http://revjimsutter.blogspot.com/2006/10/m...-terrorism.html

The links are all on that page

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/t...ategories/C167/
Several links to similar articles


"The most important message is that we condemn all kinds of hate speech including anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism and that we come out as boldly as possible against violence committed by Muslims in Iraq, in Israel, in Muslim countries like Turkey and Indonesia, and that we do all that we can in this war against terrorism," said Ahmed al-Rahim, a founding member and former chairman of the American Islamic Congress "
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131580,00.html

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/f...ious_terrorism/
an article on "Religious Terrorism"

"A simple but powerful message defined a Muslim-sponsored rally held April 25 in Patriot's Square Park in downtown Phoenix: the targeting and killing of innocent civilians is absolutely wrong."
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040430/muslim.shtml

Whosoever kills an innocent human being, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. (5:32)
http://www.islamfortoday.com/mat01.htm

"We stand, as Muslims, against all forms of terrorism in all parts of the world. We seek to increase awareness and understanding about the true teachings of Islam, a religion that preaches peace, love of humanity and service to the community. We are actively engaged in outreach to all individuals and organizations. We seek to inspire other groups and communities to speak up against violence and injustice around the world. Only through dialogue, cooperation, and mutual respect can we achieve the peace and justice the world so urgently needs."
http://www.mvp-us.org/


Extra's
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article542034.ece
http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTe...tterrorism.aspx

Pointing out that there is extremism in every religion, is in my view, not a valid reason or excuse for Islamic extremism. The film is not about promoting one religion over another.


You're completely taking my words out of context, my point is the fact that extremism exists in ALL religions, however the media tends to have a certain scope for Islam. You automaticly assume it's only Muslim extremists who brainwash their children into strapping bombs to themselvs.

As stated before, I doubt anything I can say will ever change your mind. However the fact remains that Muslims do speak out against terrorism, and extremism, but due to prejudice and lack of media this view is not shared with the rest of the world.

Edited by ussr1943, 05 April 2008 - 09:31 PM.

"Ideas are far more powerful than guns."
"The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards -- and even then I have my doubts." --Eugene H. Spafford
"One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"

#5 buddy215

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 10:55 AM

I looked at some of your links. Seems the *"mufti" who objected to killing this one Egyptian politician (for religious reasons) is also the same "mufti" who calls for the death of all Jews and condemns Christians and Hindus as well. Sort of reduces his credibility as a moderate Islamic. Or maybe a moderate is one that doesn't strap on a bomb--just encourages others to.

In your links runs the theme of "not killing innocents"when an Islamist is speaking. When others speak they condemn the "killing in the name of any religion". Who the heck is deciding who is "innocent"? See the difference? The Islamists Imams teach that anyone who is not of their particular sect or faith, draw a cartoon, write a book, are fair game. Right?

You have this opinion that I have an unfounded bias against Islamics. Not so. I think all organized religions teach ignorance and exist to enrich and empower their promoters. I think that governments that favor, promote, or legitimize laws based on any religion are dangerous.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_Al-Sudais
Abdul Rahman Ibn Abdul Aziz as-Sudais an-Najdi (Arabic: عبد الرحمن السديس (ʕabd ar-Raxman ibn ʕabd al-Aziz as-Sudais an-Najdi), born Riyadh, Saudi Arabia in 1961)[1] is the leading imam of the Grand mosque in the Islamic holy city of Mecca, Saudi Arabia and the "Islamic Personality Of the Year" 2006. In some of his sermons, al-Sudais has vilified non-Muslims and has called for the annihilation of Jews.............
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded and the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics...you are all stardust.”Lawrence M. Krauss
A 1792 U.S. penny, designed in part by Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, reads “Liberty Parent of Science & Industry.”

#6 Falu

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 01:20 PM

Fitna is a film produced by a young, right wing party in the Netherlands looking for attention, and voters. If you've seen the picture you know it's not worthwhile to discuss it since it doesn't make a statement which could be discussed.

In short: don't waste your time on Fitna!!

#7 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 08:02 PM

Fitna is a film produced by a young, right wing party in the Netherlands looking for attention, and voters. If you've seen the picture you know it's not worthwhile to discuss it since it doesn't make a statement which could be discussed.

In short: don't waste your time on Fitna!!


I think it is kind of funny when a film or production is immediately discarded by an individual for being right or left wing. Everyone has views that will place them in either the right or left wing, so this is such a weak and cowardice argument in my opinion. All you can do is investigate the facts and decide how you feel about the topic. By the way, I am not speaking specifically on this film, I haven't even seen it.

While there are extremists in every country, USSR, are there really, honestly, any religions that currently are training people to kill themselves and take a few others with them? If so, let me know. And show some numbers of how their facilities and members compare with the muslim extremists.
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

"The things you own end up owning you." Tyler Durden

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo

#8 ussr1943

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 10:03 PM

My goal is not to slander any religion in anyway, do not take the following links as such.
Please note

"When people ask "Why don't Muslims speak out against terrorism", the answer is: They do." For whatever reason, our Western media isn't doing a very good job at covering it. Below are links to (at minimum) several hundred Muslim political and religious leaders speaking out against and condemning terrorism."


Honestly I enjoy providing proof, but I'm not going to spoon feed you information from now on. I just don't have the time to crawl hundreds pages of text to prove a point. If you truly aren't biased then you won't mind using google. Here are some search terms to help you:

Christian Terrorism
Christian Militia
Christian Radicas/Extremists
Crusades
Christian terrorism in Indonesia
David Koeresh / waco incident
Centennial Olympic Park bombing
Jesus Camp movie

"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ. I want to see them radically laying down their lives for the gospel, as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine"

Christian terrorists India/Uganda
Timmothy McViegh
Oklahoma City Bombing
Christian gay club bombings
Christian abortion clinic bombings
Christian Identity
Army of God
Christian Identity
Aryan Nations
Christian Patriots
Lambs of Christ
Nagaland Rebels
Tsar Lazar Guard
White Eagles
God's Army
Ku Klux Klan
National Liberation Front of Tripura
Sons of Freedom
The Lord's Resistance Army

I find this statement fundamentaly flawed

While there are extremists in every country, USSR, are there really, honestly, any religions that currently are training people to kill themselves and take a few others with them?

Of course there is, and it's absurd you would use this phrase as if to say "there are no religions other than Islam that support terrorism". Also does that mean that as long as you don't kill yourself, but you kill others you're not a terrorist?

Again I'd like to stress that the whole point of bringing up the fact that there are extremists in almost every religion was not to slander, or to get into a childish argument such as "your religion has more terrorists, therefore you're fundamentally wrong." but to try and get people to open their eyes and research a little before expressing their opinions, to help curb that special need for people to put Islam on the chopping block.

"Jim Jones, David Koresh and Meir Kahane do not typify Christianity and Judaism in the eyes of the civilized West, but those same eyes are prone to see Osama bin Laden and Mullah Muhammad Omar as typifying Islam," Richard Bulliet

"If anyone harms (others), God will harm him, and if anyone shows hostility to others, God will show hostility to him." Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1625.

bullet "Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62


Edited by ussr1943, 08 April 2008 - 10:15 PM.

"Ideas are far more powerful than guns."
"The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards -- and even then I have my doubts." --Eugene H. Spafford
"One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"

#9 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 09:18 AM

Well, I don't want to turn this into an argument about religion either, since I don't follow one, I really am not trying to promote one over another. Some of the Christian extremist groups you mentioned are long gone, unless you are one of those who believes the templars still exist under another title, do you believe that? I don't know what to think of it. Anyway, I prefer to concentrate my focus on the current extremist groups that could harm my family and loved ones, and I personally still feel that Muslims are the most dangerous group, especially for Americans.
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

"The things you own end up owning you." Tyler Durden

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo

#10 CheckNerd

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 06:06 AM

Well, I don't want to turn this into an argument about religion either, since I don't follow one, I really am not trying to promote one over another. Some of the Christian extremist groups you mentioned are long gone, unless you are one of those who believes the templars still exist under another title, do you believe that? I don't know what to think of it. Anyway, I prefer to concentrate my focus on the current extremist groups that could harm my family and loved ones, and I personally still feel that Muslims are the most dangerous group, especially for Americans.



It's amazing how you stereotyped the Muslims as the most dangerous group. I wonder if I had done the same thing by categorizing the Christians, or rather Americans, as the most dangerous group to the Middle Eastern countries then I'd be surely labelled as an 'Extremist' by you. But i know better than to do that. I base my opinions, even personal ones, on facts.
Facts that have been thouroughly researched & not based on misinformation about Islam & Muslims in the Western media.In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims.

There was an anti-Muslim campaign after the Oklahoma bomb blast. Remember that? I guess not. Well, the press went on & declared the 'Middle Eastern' conspiracy behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces. The media is biased and thus you have to research & then state your opinions.

Peace
Nobody is perfect & I'm Nobody.

#11 buddy215

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 12:01 PM

Please feel free to state that Christians are just as dangerous. I don't share that view-- entirely.

I do think that the Christian fundamentalists have many in their organizations, including many of their spokesmen, who are just as dangerous to our secular way of life as the Islamic extremists are to their varying cultures.

My original post was not intended to compare religions. It was intended to ask opinions of others as to whether Europeans should be more concerned about the Islamic people taking up residence in their countries and then allowing their religious extremists to teach hatred of the West and promote terrorism. Or did the movie Fitna exaggerate?

In my view, Islamic terrorism is not only supported by groups such as Al-Qaeda , but more so by Islamic governments such as Iran. Many other Islamic countries allow Islamic terrorists to operate inside their borders with little or no objection.
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded and the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics...you are all stardust.”Lawrence M. Krauss
A 1792 U.S. penny, designed in part by Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, reads “Liberty Parent of Science & Industry.”

#12 ryan_w_quick

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Posted 27 June 2008 - 06:33 PM

Well, I don't want to turn this into an argument about religion either, since I don't follow one, I really am not trying to promote one over another. Some of the Christian extremist groups you mentioned are long gone, unless you are one of those who believes the templars still exist under another title, do you believe that? I don't know what to think of it. Anyway, I prefer to concentrate my focus on the current extremist groups that could harm my family and loved ones, and I personally still feel that Muslims are the most dangerous group, especially for Americans.



It's amazing how you stereotyped the Muslims as the most dangerous group. I wonder if I had done the same thing by categorizing the Christians, or rather Americans, as the most dangerous group to the Middle Eastern countries then I'd be surely labelled as an 'Extremist' by you. But i know better than to do that. I base my opinions, even personal ones, on facts.
Facts that have been thouroughly researched & not based on misinformation about Islam & Muslims in the Western media.In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims.

There was an anti-Muslim campaign after the Oklahoma bomb blast. Remember that? I guess not. Well, the press went on & declared the 'Middle Eastern' conspiracy behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces. The media is biased and thus you have to research & then state your opinions.

Peace



Well i thought we were talking about religion. You don't really need to bother stereotyping americans, its already done by the entire world. And how do you not think that muslim extremists are the most dangerous extremists to america? i wouldn't say its christians. i mean, the average american isnt called a "WASP" for nothing. christians don't want to attack their own, their not stupid. but the muslim extremists are not even just out to get christians, they just want to take down america. they hate our excesses and wastefullness, and that many of us are christians. and no reason can be used to stop them, since all extremists pretty much use ancient literary works to drive the wars that they seek to make. And if people are going to follow extremist cowards into acts of terrorism based on a 2000 year old book, that you can't really prove hardly anything in it is true, THEN THERE REALLY ISN'T MUCH THAT ANY OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD CAN DO BESIDES CRUSH THEM.
"To do less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." Steve Prefontaine

"The things you own end up owning you." Tyler Durden

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo

#13 CheckNerd

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 05:42 AM

Well, I don't want to turn this into an argument about religion either, since I don't follow one, I really am not trying to promote one over another. Some of the Christian extremist groups you mentioned are long gone, unless you are one of those who believes the templars still exist under another title, do you believe that? I don't know what to think of it. Anyway, I prefer to concentrate my focus on the current extremist groups that could harm my family and loved ones, and I personally still feel that Muslims are the most dangerous group, especially for Americans.



It's amazing how you stereotyped the Muslims as the most dangerous group. I wonder if I had done the same thing by categorizing the Christians, or rather Americans, as the most dangerous group to the Middle Eastern countries then I'd be surely labelled as an 'Extremist' by you. But i know better than to do that. I base my opinions, even personal ones, on facts.
Facts that have been thouroughly researched & not based on misinformation about Islam & Muslims in the Western media.In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims.

There was an anti-Muslim campaign after the Oklahoma bomb blast. Remember that? I guess not. Well, the press went on & declared the 'Middle Eastern' conspiracy behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces. The media is biased and thus you have to research & then state your opinions.

Peace



Well i thought we were talking about religion. You don't really need to bother stereotyping americans, its already done by the entire world. And how do you not think that muslim extremists are the most dangerous extremists to america? i wouldn't say its christians. i mean, the average american isnt called a "WASP" for nothing. christians don't want to attack their own, their not stupid. but the muslim extremists are not even just out to get christians, they just want to take down america. they hate our excesses and wastefullness, and that many of us are christians. and no reason can be used to stop them, since all extremists pretty much use ancient literary works to drive the wars that they seek to make. And if people are going to follow extremist cowards into acts of terrorism based on a 2000 year old book, that you can't really prove hardly anything in it is true, THEN THERE REALLY ISN'T MUCH THAT ANY OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD CAN DO BESIDES CRUSH THEM.


Hey! I'd like you to check out these videos on YouTube( From 4/17 to 17/17 ). Perhaps it'll clear your misconceptions about Islam & Extremist. Do check the videos out and then reply to this msg.



Thanks:)

Edited by CheckNerd, 28 June 2008 - 05:45 AM.

Nobody is perfect & I'm Nobody.

#14 buddy215

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 07:16 AM

I watched and listened to some of the video you think is somehow relevant. The speakers are Muslim apologists and propagandists trying to convince a Muslim audience that "All Terrorists Are Not Muslims".
They discuss events of one to two hundred years ago as if somehow it justifies present day Islamic terrorism. They have a hard time even defining terrorism.
At least one of the speakers I listened to says he wasn't condoning violence but he did go on to condone anarchy and revenge using violence.

I have said I have not watched and listened to all the video. If there is one of these videos that you recommended specifically condemns Al Qaeda like terrorist groups or the Islamic terrorism that is shown in the Fitna film, please point it out and I will definitely watch it.

Have you viewed Fitna and do you have any comments on the film?
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded and the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics...you are all stardust.”Lawrence M. Krauss
A 1792 U.S. penny, designed in part by Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, reads “Liberty Parent of Science & Industry.”

#15 CheckNerd

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 08:45 AM

No, I havent seen the movie Fitna and thus I haven't even commented on it. My reply was in relation to Ryanwquick's post.As far as the videos are concerned, well, first of all the audience is not all Muslims- the idea of the forum is to get the non Muslims to ask questions about Islam and clear any misconceptions.Also, the video covers the latest events viz the 9/11 and London bombings. So that goes on to show that you didn't watch all the videos. And the speaker is neither apologist nor propagadist- It's Mr Bush who possesses these qualities. Apologist because he justifies the 9/11 event- an event that even the Western media acknowledges to be an 'inside job' rather than an act committed by Muslims- by waging a war on Afghanistan and then on Iraq.

Okay forget everything what I said. Answer this question:
If Islam promotes terrorism and extremism, and if Muslims are the most dangerous group to America, why is it the fastest growing religion in America? Why would the British Tabloid Journalist Susan Ridley convert to Islam after she was captured by Taliban when se sneaked into Afghanistan?

I'm not posting here for an argument. The idea is to be objective and not have a myopic opinion based on whatever is shown/printed in the media.

P.S: I've nothing against Americans. I have lived in States for many years and know that the people are genuinely nice and caring. Its just that the politicians screw it up a lot! As they say Politics is the game of scoundrels.

Peace and God bless us all ! :thumbsup:
Nobody is perfect & I'm Nobody.




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