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Rudeness


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#16 dc3

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 11:54 AM

I might take the opposite view. In the casual forums a more conversational style is appropriate, and one can overlook bad grammar and punctuation within reason. In the other forums, especially those where Members are asking and giving help, it is a different story. I think it is extremely rude and uncaring if someone posts about a problem in a way that makes clear and easy understanding difficult; Members who help do so in their spare time, and the easier one can make it for them, the better. Clear and distinct writing in Standard English eliminates confusion as well as lengthens the time for both parties if needless correspondence in a thread is required just to understand the problem or the solution. Now many of our Members read and write English as their second (or fourth, for that matter) language; they are taught Standard English. Imagine their consternation when trying to wade through a breadthless post without capitalisation or with slang and IM abbreviations; there are enough technical terms when working with computers that may require trips to the dictionary without their trying to figure out "b4."

It is not as if there is English and there is, say French. There are many different versions of English, ranging from Formal to Standard to various argots, and each has a different purpose and a different intended audience. Using Standard English seems appropriate when attempting to communicate successfully with a very wide range of people, just as IM English is appropriate when typing quickly and "talking" with friends who have a "feel" for what you are saying.

Regards,
John



You are absolutely right John, and I suspect that some of our members that have learned English as a second language write and speak the language better than some of our members that are native to the language.

I have probably been perceived as being a nit picker about punctuation in these forums, but my concern goes beyond what is being written here, especially by our younger members. All of us have gone through phases growing up where we had phrases that were identifiable with our peer groups, and I suspect that this lack of punctuation and abbreviations are an extension of that same phenomena and hopefully will pass as well. How a person represents themselves in writing here is the only means that other members have to base their impressions on, and if you use short cuts, abbreviations, poor grammar, a lack of punctuation and capital letters it is going to be the indicator of what and who you are.

I also agree with DSTM regarding members that are adults and have huge numbers of post but won't bring themselves to set a good example to our younger members by using good communication skills.

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#17 JohnWho

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 12:35 PM

Hi 'John Who' while I agree in principal the message you are trying to convey,...


Well, in principal, I agree with me, too.

:thumbsup:


Of course, there would be exceptions to every general rule.


Like I said - if you respect those around you, they are likely to respect you.


We should all remember that communicating in writing is, essentially for most of us, our second language. We lose the voice inflections, the speech cadence, the facial and hand gestures and the general body posture that our voice communication portrays.

In fact, therein lies the basis for what I choose as my signature phrase, below.


I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!


#18 jgweed

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 01:06 PM

It should come as no surprise that the growth of BC is the result of the help it provides to internet users worldwide (the WORLD in WWW is the defining characteristic) who search the Tutorials and the Forums for answers to problems or to ask for some help with a problem. Hundreds of people, and not only Members, search BC for help each day (772 as I write this), and understandable English makes the knowledge and help provided usable to all.

I also agree that common courtesy in our posts is extremely important. If one browses, for example, some of the other help forums, rudeness and "attitudes" seem prevalent. They are often not happy places to visit, let alone dare to ask a "elementary" question.

DC3 makes a good point about providing examples of clear writing to the younger readers. One hears, for example, in businesses and professional areas, about the poor writing skills of people applying for positions; even though they have the required skillset, if they cannot write effectively, they are passed over.

Cheers,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#19 garmanma

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 03:14 PM

The amazing part of this whole conversation is that "computer speak" is all about abbreviations, playing on words, etc. So how can anybody criticize grammar, caps, and anything else. Makes no sense to me :thumbsup: :flowers:

The only problem I have with all caps, or no punctuation, is it all runs together and makes it hard for me to read
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#20 Turi

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 03:34 PM

The only problem is with... peepz hu spik lik3 ths nd it taykz mi t0 m1nut3s 2 fgure wht thyr tlking abt lke vwls dnt xst nd 0th3r r4nd0m num8er5 l00k c00l oR PuTTiing RandOM CapItalS aaNd ExtRaa LEttErs !!!!111!!one!!one!!11 .....
Crazyness comes to those who wait

#21 BOB FARRELL

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 06:20 PM

The mark of a person with good manners is to ignore the bad manners of others and to treat everyone with courtesy. I also dislike people with a credit card who treat servers in that way,Sinn, just as I dislike supercilious waiters who want to tell me that I cannot have my steak well-done or sneer when I order the "wrong" colour of wine.

Now my own pet peeve is unruly and excessively loud children in public places, whether in a restaurant on in a supermarket. I wonder if we need a law about "second-hand noise" which can be as harmful to the ear as second- hand smoke to the lungs.
John

I totally agree with you--Now that I am an oldster, I look at those parents that don't contain their children and think where did it all start. Maybe with their parents.
Bob

#22 BlackSpyder

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 07:28 PM

The only problem is with... peepz hu spik lik3 ths nd it taykz mi t0 m1nut3s 2 fgure wht thyr tlking abt lke vwls dnt xst nd 0th3r r4nd0m num8er5 l00k c00l oR PuTTiing RandOM CapItalS aaNd ExtRaa LEttErs !!!!111!!one!!one!!11 .....

Yes 1337 is rude and serves little purpose other then to confuse new users (aka N00Bs, noobs, N0035) and befuddle parents. I have been known to use it on rare occasion (as in just now) and I usually have no problems figuring it out.
Also people who post RTFM or RTFOM on any forum.
One more item, suburban kids who insist on using "Gangsta speak" or "Redneck/Hillbilly speak" and the only experiences they've had with either environment is through music. (I actually take the second as an insult, as I am from the country and aside from my southern accent you would be hard pressed to tell.)

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#23 KoanYorel

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 08:08 PM

We also have a minor board rule regarding posts here.

When posting, please use proper grammar. Refrain from 'text-message' style substitutions of words like 'u' for 'you', and 'ur' for 'your'. This is a multi-national forum, and some of our non-english speaking members must use translation software which is confused by abbreviations. Most of our volunteer members are very busy helping as many people as they can, and a post that is hard to read will often be overlooked.


Enough said?
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#24 Ryan 3000

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 11:10 AM

N00Bs, noobs, N0035

Don't forget newbs for the hard-of-spelling.
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#25 autocthon

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 07:48 PM

Hi 'John Who' while I agree in principal the message you are trying to convey,you and a lot of Members on BC tend to knit pick when in a lot of cases,we should be more understanding. A typical example only yesterday, a woman wrote in Caps and was picked up immediately for giving the impression of shouting.A couple of posts later she revealed she was nearly blind and coulcn't see what she was writing properly on her monitor.The BC Advisor immediately said sorry and told her to use Caps.The point I am making, you and I are not allways aware of the Members Handicaps,yet they are trying to communicate.
I have bad eyesight, and have to double check every time before I post.A lot of our members are from nearly every country on Earth and with different native tongues and some with very poor education.All these points should be taken into account before adopting a holier than thou attitude.There is absolutely no excuse when someone on BC has made over 4000 Posts and still can't put a sentence together properly. If you are English speaking and educated then there is absolutely no excuse not to make your post user friendly,every time. We all have typo's from time to time.

Have to ask: did you use knit pick as opposed to nit pick to make an esoteric as well as an erudite reply?
Suppose there were no such thing as theoretical questions.

#26 DSTM

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 09:23 PM

Have to ask: did you use knit pick as opposed to nit pick to make an esoteric as well as an erudite reply?

It's called a typo.
Forum rules prevents me from answering your childish Question in a manner befitting.















#27 dc3

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 09:41 PM

Play nice children. :thumbsup:

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#28 Iodine

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 09:50 PM

Well put DSTM and I think you made a very valid point. One should know the circumstances of a situation before correcting others. There is no doubt that we could all, at times, use a refresher course in the proper use of the English (American English) language along with proper grammer. There is,however, another side to nit picking. If you are trying to be helpful or constructive that is one thing but when you start taking barely veiled jabs at another member in order to embarress or antagonize them that is where the line should be,and according to the rules is, drawn as totally unacceptable.
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#29 DaChew

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 05:20 AM

punctuation, correct grammatical structure and spelling are secondary in the art of communication thru writting

writting simple sentences is often more efficient

back in graduate school, I ran into a perfect example of this, C Wright Mills did a 2 page parody of a Talcott Parsons' 30 page work, verboseness, although intellectually stimulating, is not efficient communication

if you are trying to help a poster who has english as their second or third language, simple sentences with lay terms is more efficient or easily understood

many people seem to be confusing knowledge or professionalism with a mastery of "correct" technical writting

rant off

Edited by DaChew, 25 August 2007 - 05:22 AM.

Chewy

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#30 JohnWho

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 08:03 AM

One should know the circumstances of a situation before correcting others.


Iodine -

I mostly would agree, except we have no idea who a member really is on any of these boards, unless you happen to know an individual in real life perhaps.

If someone has a circumstance that the others should know about, such as poor vision, English not their primary language, etc. then it is their personal responsibility to let us know, in my opinion.

I doubt if youi'll find too many boards, or Usenet Groups, where on someone's initial post where they use ALL CAPS, another member won't ask them not to do that because it seems like shouting. It is part of the Netiquette that we all should respect and not anything that should be interpreted as undue harassment.

Remember, we are, or at least I am, only talking about these boards and Usernet postings. Obviously, if we are meeting someone in person we should, and most likely do, act differently.

Note the board rule that KoanYorel shows. It is only common sense. If you want someone to understand what you are saying, say it in a manner that they will understand. (Again, see my signature, below.)

There is no doubt that we could all, at times, use a refresher course in the proper use of the English (American English) language along with proper grammer. There is,however, another side to nit picking. If you are trying to be helpful or constructive that is one thing but when you start taking barely veiled jabs at another member in order to embarress or antagonize them that is where the line should be,and according to the rules is, drawn as totally unacceptable.


I agree with that. I, for example, rarely bother someone when they misspell a word, since we all do it, and it often may be a typo. Even an occasional "there" when it should be "they're" doesn't bother me, although I do notice it. If the poster does this most of the time, however, I might point it out, because if no one corrects them they may not realize that they aren't coming across as intellectually as they might like.

While I can't think of a specific example right now, I have remarked in what I thought was a humorous manner at times when someone uses the wrong word or misspells a word. For those ocassions; that's why god made smilies and as you know I've been known to use them.

:thumbsup: :trumpet: :flowers:


I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!





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