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Religion


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#1 solaris32

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 01:34 PM

What's the point with religion? It's basically just a set of rules to govern your life, while you generally serve some higher being, in the hope that you will "go to a better place". I have not encountered a single religion or theory about how we came to be on this earth that is supported by honest scientific fact ( in other words, it's been proven without a doubt). So why do so many people believe in religion? Do you need the belief that your life has a purpose? Do you need a set of rules to run your life by? Does it make you sleep better at night that when you die, you will go to a "heaven" (or whatever version your religion has)?

I think religion was invented to secretly govern people, so they have a purpose in life and will follow some code, and not wander aimlessly through life.

I've realzed, that I should make my own decision regarding religion and if I even believe in one. Just because I was raised as a Christian, doesn't mean it's true. I have a hard time following something that can't be proven one way or another. I'm still thinking about whether there's a God or not.

But I want this thread to be about religion as a whole, and what it's point is. Why do so many people believe in a wide array of ideas that can't be proven?
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#2 ambellina

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 03:10 PM

to give people something greater than themselves to believe in.

#3 flat360

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 03:33 PM

sometimes in this hectic lifestyle we live in its nice to think there is something at the end a reassurance a peace of mind that we and our loved ones have just started our journey and believe it are not religion gives us just that :thumbsup:

#4 nn23

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 04:55 PM

Hey Solaris

On the one hand religion can be seen to be the basis of all social constructs (10 commandments = law = morals = values = the way we live our lives and make judgments) in this way each of us is affected by it, whether we choose to admit it or not.

HA HAAA...i think you will like this quote...

Religion, time and time again, brings down empires, rotting them from within.
Iblis Ginjo,
early planning for the Jihad

Yes, it seems that religion has been manipulated by mans desire to dominate and the need for order in society...but i think there is a deeper meaning also.

Religion is also about self discovery...it is not about "higher beings". I am not a christian, but i am happy to take lessons from anywhere that makes sense to my heart. I am non-discriminitive about this. I reckon that the root of all religious texts is about showing us who we really are, but unfortunately much has been translated to communicate rules and order within society and the inner meanings have been lost over the years.

For example. In the Bible when Moses asks God his name, God replys "i am that i am". To me this is more zen like than christian, he is basically saying that he is. To be, in a sense is the sum of everything!...infinity...and in my mind infinity can not be divided so by saying he is everything, everything would have to be Him, and that includes us also. I feel this is a symbolic statement to say that we are all everything, this may sound a little extravagant, but it seems that Quantum Physics draws these sort of conclusions also...

One is led to a new notion of unbroken wholeness which denies the classical idea of analyzibility of the world into seperately and independently existing parts ... We have reveresed the usual classical notion that the independent "elementary parts" of the world are the fundemental reality, and that various systems are merely particular contingent forms and arrangements of these parts. Rather we say that inseperable quantum interconnectedness of the whole universe is the fundemental reality, and that relatively independently behaving parts are merely particular and contingent forms with the whole ~ David Bohm

Here is a 5000 year old quotation from the Upanishads that is basically making the same point but perhaps in a more poetic manner.

He on whom the sky, the earth, and the atmousphere are woven, and the wind, together with all life-breaths, Him alone know as the one Soul ~ Mundaka Upanishad

So, there are two sides to religion, there is what it has become and its reflections of the dominance of man and desire for control in society...and there is what made it so, which i feel lies within the people who experienced self realisation and decided to record these experiences within scriptures to share with others...but because others had not achieved the realisation to understand what they had written, their interpretations have since influenced what religion has become today.

NICE ONE!
nn23

#5 solaris32

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 11:32 PM

Very good post nn32. So I am wondering, are people so desperate for meaning and purpose in their lives that they will follow a religion (usually one they were raised by which could be any)? Because that's what I'm getting at. People will believe unproven ideas, just so they can feel better. It seems kind of silly, but that is entirely my opinion. I have no need for purpose in life, therefore I have begun questioning religion.

When I say I don't need a purpose, it means I can live how I want to without having some external code governing me; in other words, I'm self sufficient. It just amazes me how so many people need a "purpose" in order to live. Just live! You can still have fun, have a hobby, have a job, have a family, you don't need religion for that, yet so many do.
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#6 jgweed

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 11:34 PM

The only justification for religion is aesthetic. A tremendous amount of great art, architecture, and music has been created in the service of a religion.
Regards,
John
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.

#7 Budapest

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 02:40 AM

Kierkegaard stressed that belief in god (for him it was the christian god) relies on a leap of faith. Belief in god cannot be a rational decision and therefore faith must transcend rationality. Kierkegaard also stated that to have faith in god one must also doubt the existence of god. To him doubt was an essential element of faith. To believe or have faith that god exists, without ever having doubted god's existence would not be a worthwhile faith. It requires no faith to believe in the existence of the pint of beer sitting in front of you - you can see it and touch it (and of course drink it). In contrast, one can have no perceptual access to god; therefore, belief in god is a different category of belief (hence the need for a leap of faith).
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.

—George Bernard Shaw

#8 nn23

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 06:24 AM

Very good post nn32. So I am wondering, are people so desperate for meaning and purpose in their lives that they will follow a religion (usually one they were raised by which could be any)? Because that's what I'm getting at. People will believe ~ unproven ideas, just so they can feel better. It seems kind of silly, but that is entirely my opinion. I have no need for purpose in life, therefore I have begun questioning religion.

When I say I don't need a purpose, it means I can live how I want to without having some external code governing me; in other words, I'm self sufficient. It just amazes me how so many people need a "purpose" in order to live. Just live! You can still have fun, have a hobby, have a job, have a family, you don't need religion for that, yet so many do.


I think you make a good point Solaris, but it is a little...unextensive. I do not think people nesecarily need to be desperate to want to look for purpose in their life. Some people are not even looking, it just happens.

The ultimate question: Why does life exist? The answer: For life's sake.
~ thought to be of Zensunni origin

This may be a simple answer, but is life simple?...i think we become so accustomed to "living" that we miss what a profound thing it is. Everything we experience is within the mind...everything we touch or see is within our mind, it is a recording...but what is the nature of this recorder...where do we come to when we follow it back? Consciousness. Science can not prove consciousness to exist within the brain...as we experience it, it has no form...something without form can not be bound, and something without binding...well, its infinate...isnt that maaaad!!!? i think it is beautiful :thumbsup:...the source of our being (all thought and perception) is consciousness....i think that this is what "i am that i am" symbolises.

This is a cool quote...

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. ~ Albert Einstein


This is a funny thought...perhaps living how you want to live, being self sufficient, having fun, hobbies, a job, a family is your "external code" which governs you.

I see little difference between "i dont need a religion" and "i need a religion". To not need is the need to not need in my view, they are both beliefs.

Some people may appear to be desperate to find purpose through their devotion to religion, and others may appear desperate to find purpose specifically without identifying or attributing to some deity...which is still desperation. But deity worship are not the only types of religion, there are many non-theist religions and understandings that work completely differently from the context to which your OP applys.


NICE ONE!
nn23

#9 jwinathome

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 06:50 AM

Solaris...whether you like it or not, you are somewhat governed by the laws of physics as well as the established laws of the land. So you are not totally free of outside governance. Ridiculous example? Maybe, but there clearly are forces that you have no control over.

One could ask the same question of science...

What's the point? If there is no accountability for what you do, no afterlife, you are totally self-sufficient...then why do you care about ANYTHING being proven or unproven? What's the point? Is it out of desperation that you need science to prove things?

Edited by jwinathome, 20 July 2007 - 06:52 AM.


#10 solaris32

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 07:20 AM

Solaris...whether you like it or not, you are somewhat governed by the laws of physics as well as the established laws of the land. So you are not totally free of outside governance. Ridiculous example? Maybe, but there clearly are forces that you have no control over.

One could ask the same question of science...

What's the point? If there is no accountability for what you do, no afterlife, you are totally self-sufficient...then why do you care about ANYTHING being proven or unproven? What's the point? Is it out of desperation that you need science to prove things?

No, I just can't believe blindly. I don't believe in the loch ness monster, bigfoot, or aliens. So why is God any different? None of those above can be proven, therefore there is no validity, and without validity, you are believing blindly. They exist only in opinion. If that opinion did not exist, would they exist? Sure I've got an open mind and won't criticize people for what they choose to believe, but it doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Edited by solaris32, 20 July 2007 - 07:23 AM.

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#11 Budapest

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 07:30 AM

No, I just can't believe blindly. I don't believe in the loch ness monster, bigfoot, or aliens. So why is God any different? None of those above can be proven, therefore there is no validity, and without validity, you are believing blindly.

I think that is the whole point. Some people call it believing blindly, others prefer the word faith. If there was proof, there would be no need for faith.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.

—George Bernard Shaw

#12 solaris32

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 09:46 AM

No, I just can't believe blindly. I don't believe in the loch ness monster, bigfoot, or aliens. So why is God any different? None of those above can be proven, therefore there is no validity, and without validity, you are believing blindly.

I think that is the whole point. Some people call it believing blindly, others prefer the word faith. If there was proof, there would be no need for faith.

Exactly. Because I don't believe in blind faith, I find religion to be redundant. What I don't understand, is why so many people blindly follow unproven ideas. People are not dumb, most of us require some proof before we believe an idea. If you were born in space, you would probably have no concept of gravity, therefore you would need some kind of proof that it indeed existed right? You wouldn't just blindly believe in it without proof. Yet many people defy this simple logic by believing in religions where none have been proven.
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#13 cowsgonemadd3

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 03:09 PM

Question for you solaris.

How do you think the universe was made/began?

#14 solaris32

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 03:17 PM

Question for you solaris.

How do you think the universe was made/began?

Don't know. That's part of the problem. There's nothing that can adequately prove it, yet we didn't come from nowhere...

Edited by solaris32, 20 July 2007 - 03:19 PM.

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#15 mz30

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 03:29 PM

i once asked my uncle (who's son was murdered, daughter was an alcholic and wife had had both her breast's removed due to cancer)why do you believe in god,now you will have to understand this guy is the most catholic person i know he visit rome twice a year to see the pope ,prays everday(twice)and all this stuff still happens to him.
you know what is answer was "belief"
well anyone who has read any of my posts on similar subjects will know what i feel about religion,but at the end of the day we all have a choice ,you choose to blindly believe or you require proof .i require proof ,no i demand proof which will never be forthcoming ,now i understand some people are devout in there beliefs and i do not wish to upset anyone with what i am saying.but it is a common thing for people to argue about who's religion is right ,wars happen ,people die,i mean damn even a few topics on b.c have become quite argumentetive over who's religion is right ,at the end of the day (in my opinion)
if there is a god why let people die,children abducted and killed what is all that about why put the people who really devout themselves to you suffer while you do nothing and if you are all seeing ,you watch and obviously let it pass by .
god my head hurts.
if you don't ask ,you don't know



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