Space Exploration

Disclaimer:

PLEASE READ

This section is for polite and thoughtful debate on potentially controversial topics. There will be no flaming, swearing, or cursing. Anyone not following these simple rules will, without notice, have their posts immediately removed.

The opinions expressed in these forums in no way reflect the opinions of BleepingComputer.com

Space Exploration

Options

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 8 2007, 07:45 AM Post #56
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	QUOTE(Darthy @ Feb 7 2007, 09:10 AM) Excuse me this question locally pwned: Do you really beleive, without any doubt, that Apollo missions landed on Moon? I have to know if you beleive or not, because if you do I have to talk with you about the Van Allen Belts. Regards, Darthy Yes Darthy, I do indeed believe that human beings did in fact play golf on the Moon. So let's talk about those belts... -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

athelos View Member Profile	Feb 8 2007, 06:03 PM Post #57
Member Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 10-December 06 Member No.: 100,544	Van halen...thats a band isnt it? Seriously though. If you want to talk about the Van Allen belts then lets. Mr James Van Allen actually dismissed the idea himself (before he dies of course) that these belts of radiation would have killed the Apollo crew. They would have recieved a non lethal dose, in fact a, harmless dose. While researching into it abit deeper I also found that NASA; "...deliberately timed Apollo launches, and used lunar transfer orbits that only skirted the edge of the belt over the equator to minimize the radiation..." The crew would have had a slightly higher chance of getting radiation than most of us "earthlings" -------------------- Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia. --Charles Schultz

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 8 2007, 09:33 PM Post #58
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	I remember very well in 1969 a square golf ball entered in our atmosphere and shoot a pteranodont over the Pacific Ocean. Well LP let's talk about the Van Allen radiation belts. As you know, the moon is 240,000 miles away and the space shuttle has never gone more than 400 miles from the Earth. Except for Apollo astronauts, no humans even claim to have gone beyond low-earth orbit. When the space shuttle astronauts did get to an altitude of 400 miles, the radiation of the Van Allen belts forced them to a lower altitude. The Van Allen radiation belts exist because the Earth's magnetic field traps the solar wind. Qualitatively, it is very useful to view this belt as consisting of two belts around Earth, the inner radiation belt and the outer radiation belt. The particles are distributed such that the inner belt consists mostly of protons while the outer belt consists mostly of electrons. Within these belts are particles capable of penetrating about 1 g/cm2 [1] of shielding (e.g., 1 millimetre of lead). The Earth's Van Allen Belts consists of highly energetic ionized paticles trapped in the Earth's geomagnetic fields. On the sunward side of the Earth, the geomagnetic fields are compressed by the Solar Wind while on the opposite side of the Earth, the geomagnetic fields extend to three Earth Radii. As a result, the geomagnetic field form an elongated cavity, known as the Chapman-Ferraro Cavity, around the Earth. Within this cavity, reside the Van Allen Radiation Belts. These radiation belts are composed of electrons with thousand eV energies, and protons with million eV energies. The particles in the belts are not directly injected by the Solar Wind. Magetic fields of a magnitude of 0.3 gauss prevent the Solar Wind from directly entering the radiation belts. Most of the particles result from neutron Albedo. Neutron Albedo is the process where Solar Flare particles interact. Van Allen Belts The thickness of the second Van Allen belt it's approximately 4,510^4 miles (45000 miles) and the speed of the astronauts was about 18000 miles/Hr., which means that they were inside that belt approximately 2 and an half hours+2 and an half hours in their return. In accordance with my calculations, the astronauts were, only in the second Van Allen belt, 5 hours. Quoting NASA, The Radiation Belts QUOTE The Earth actually has two radiation belts of different origins. The inner belt, the one discovered by Van Allen's Geiger counter, occupies a compact region above the equator (see drawing, which also includes the trajectories of two space probes) and is a by-product of cosmic radiation. It is populated by protons of energies in the 10-100 Mev range, which readily penetrate spacecraft and which can, on prolonged exposure, damage instruments and be a hazard to astronauts. Both manned and unmanned spaceflights tend to stay out of this region. How can the NASA say such a thing like this when, at the same time, pretend that Apollo missions went to the Moon and crossed these regions twice? There is something isn't quite right. A Mega Electron Volt is 10^6 ev (1000000 ev) and 100 Mev are 10^8 ev (100000000 ev) which is a great, great amout of energy for each particle. Inside the belts there are zillions of particles with this energy and only a fool would stay in this region for more than 15 minutes!!! And when he got out of there would be better that he went immediately to a decontamination center. I'll wait your reply LP. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 9 2007, 10:09 AM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates* Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 9 2007, 06:56 AM Post #59
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	Darthy, I don't have a lot of time for an in-depth response right now. But here's my 2 cents: the issue is not the energy of the particles but the density of the radiation in the belts and the relatively short amount of time the astronauts spent traveling through them. A few hours through the most dense regions would mean that the astronauts were surely hit by these particles, but were not exposed long enough to cause short-term problems. The Sun's corona is a similar situation. The particles in the corona have an extremely high temperature, around a million degrees (ie, high energy) compared to the surface of the Sun, which is a paltry 5800 K. However the number of particles contained in the corona is so low that the corona itself has a relatively low amount of energy. By the way, the astronauts were also open to cosmic rays while outside the Earth's magnetic field. I remember reading that Armstrong reported to the doctors back on Earth that he had seen "light flashes" in his eyes while on the Moon. These flashes are thought to have been caused by cosmic rays impacting cells in his retina. Again, the fact that the missions lasted days (and only hours through the dense regions of the belts) rather than weeks or months (or years) was the reason no short-term effects (aka radiation poisoning, ect) occurred. I would assume that NASA, cautioning space flight above a certain altitude above the Earth, is warning about the dangers of long-term missions. -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 9 2007, 05:05 PM Post #60
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	When you have enough time, tell me something more LP, I'll wait. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 10 2007, 11:19 AM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

yano View Member Profile	Feb 12 2007, 12:41 PM Post #61
I can see what you post! Group: Members Posts: 6,374 Joined: 14-February 05 Member No.: 12,053	I think the space agency, should be turned over to the private market. Let them deal with it. If capitalism has gotten our economy this far it will take the space exploration further. It'll just end up to the point where you'll have to pay just to breath oxygen on the ship... they'll find something stupid to charge you for. Then the service will come up crappy from the capitalistic space. -------------------- My Blog

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 12 2007, 01:34 PM Post #62
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	Like, until now, you didn't say anything, LP, I feel that you need to know something more why I don't believe Apollo missions gone to the Moon. As you know, the solar activity is proportional to the sunspot number and directly reflects the solar activity cycle. Apollo XI mission had a duration of 08d 03h 18m 35s and its launch date was July 16, 1969. Apollo XII mission had a duration of 10d 04h 36m 24s and its launch date was November 14, 1969. Apollo missions Beyond both missions had to cross Van Allen belts facing all the dangers that I enumerated in my previous post, when in open space and on the surface of the Moon, the astronauts had to be prepared to face solar outbursts and solar flares with their rudimentary protection. The Moon has not Van Allen belts to protect human life. The launchings of these two missinos have coincided with the maximum activity of the 20th cycle of the Sun, as you can see in this link. Scientists Predict Big Solar Cycle I advice you to click in the word "More" in blue, to see the whole picture. Since a long time that NASA makes predictions of sunspots and solar activity and it's a very strange coincidence that NASA allows the launches of those missions in this particular year of maximum solar activity, don't you agree with me LP? There are a lot of unanswered questions about all Apollo missions. For instance, see this link: Rethinking NASA's Version of History That's why I believe We ... Did ... Not ... Go ... To ... Moon. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 12 2007, 08:33 PM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 13 2007, 08:02 AM Post #63
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	Sorry Darthy, been busy with mid-terms! I have been poking around more, reading up on the topic. One of the main methods for avoiding the dangers of the VA belts is to avoid flying through them in the first place.. Apparently many diagrams of the trajectory used by the Apollo vessels don't show an accurate 3D view; the ships apparently missed almost entirely the dense regions of the belts. I have read this in several sources, I will dig one up for you if you don't believe me. Let's see, what else did I find. Oh yes. Granted, it's Wikipedia so I don't know if it will count as a source in your book or not. I have found it to be relatively accurate and useful. But anyway, here's a bit of info debunking standard conspiracy claims...and it includes a bit about the radiation. QUOTE 1. The astronauts could not have survived the trip because of exposure to radiation from the Van Allen radiation belt and galactic ambient radiation (see Radiation poisoning). Some hoax theorists have suggested that Starfish Prime (high altitude nuclear testing in 1962) was a failed attempt to disrupt the Van Allen belts. And the answers: QUOTE The Moon is ten times higher than the Van Allen radiation belts. The spacecraft moved through the belts in just 30 minutes, and the astronauts were protected from the ionizing radiation by the metal hulls of the spacecraft. In addition, the orbital transfer trajectory from the Earth to the Moon through the belts was selected to minimize radiation exposure. Even Dr. James Van Allen, the discoverer of the Van Allen radiation belts, rebutted the claims that radiation levels were too dangerous for the Apollo missions. Dosimeters carried by the crews showed they received about the same cumulative dosage as a chest X-ray or about 1 milligray.[48] Plait cited an average dose of less than 1 rem, which is equivalent to the ambient radiation received by living at sea level for three years.(Plait 2002:160-62) * The radiation is actually evidence that the astronauts went to the Moon. Thirty-three of the thirty-six Apollo astronauts involved in the nine Apollo missions to leave Earth orbit have early stage cataracts that have been shown to be caused by radiation exposure to cosmic rays during their trip. (see Ms. Irene Schneider on The Space Show), the November 20, 2005 show. I was not surprised by the first paragraph; I had read that all over. But the second paragraph was very interesting; cataracts shown to be caused by the very radiation you say kept the missions on the ground. Edit: Oh, as for the solar cycle, you are correct, it was not a good plan. But I doubt they really considered the dangers of higher solar radiation. It was the "Wild West" of space exploration. It does turn out that there were no large solar flares during any of the Apollo missions...luckily for the astronauts! The trouble with this debate is that no amount of evidence could persuade you that the landings did occur, once you've accepted that they haven't. And vise-versa; I suppose you could say the same about my position! But then, you've got the burden of proof in this situation, and so far pretty much every point made by the anti-lunar-landing folks seems to be easily explained away. But on the other hand, I will admit that perhaps I simply can't see it your way any more than you can see it mine. Perhaps this debate has got to the point where logic and deduction have been pushed aside. After all, what argument, what data could change either of our minds? Again, the Japanese mission to survey the surface of the Moon will surely show images of the landing sites. But even if it does: I would assume that the images were proof of the landings, and you would assume these images were faked, no? Darthy, if you and I traveled to the Moon and walked up to the remains of the Apollo 11 craft, we still could not prove that the landing actually took place in 1969; the lander could have been planted for all we know! On a side note: Can you prove that Bach really wrote all of his music, or Shakespeare all of his plays? Or that George Washington really chopped down a cherry tree? Or that Columbus really sailed in 1942? Or that Elvis really died? I mean, we assume these things to be true. But how do we actually prove beyond a doubt? History is funny this way... And so are my posts, now that I think of it. I never really know where they will end up when I being typing! This post has been edited by locally pwned: Feb 13 2007, 08:23 AM -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 13 2007, 10:23 PM Post #64
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	QUOTE(locally pwned @ Feb 13 2007, 01:02 PM) ...On a side note: Can you prove that Bach really wrote all of his music, or Shakespeare all of his plays? Or that George Washington really chopped down a cherry tree? Or that Columbus really sailed in 1942? Or that Elvis really died? I mean, we assume these things to be true. But how do we actually prove beyond a doubt?... Excuse me this LP, but I'm going to correct you, if you don't mind: Columbus sailed in 1492 and not in 1942. You changed the numbers. As you can see we are . We can discuss this subject in the appropriate Forum, which is "Did we Really land on the moon", don't you think? I'm going to bring it back. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 13 2007, 10:49 PM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 14 2007, 06:49 AM Post #65
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	Darthy, that was a silly typo, eh? -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 25 2007, 08:20 PM Post #66
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	QUOTE(locally pwned @ Jan 26 2007, 11:17 PM) ...Another question: when it comes to space exploration, should our focus be on development of human exploration or robotics? I would bet in the unmanned missions because they are much more cheap. -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

nn23 View Member Profile	Feb 25 2007, 09:30 PM Post #67
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 461 Joined: 24-February 07 Member No.: 113,791	hi, i'm new to this sort of stuff btw. Oh yeah, and Darth, i never new that was by socrates, coolus maximus he he. It seems really weird that there are millions of these sorts of actually quite critical debates going on but yet they have little authority over what actually happens, what a democracy we live in ha ha a ha its CRAZY actually!!! hmmm, i reckon that the technology to save the planet has long ago been invented except the rights have been bought by the big guys to stop em goin out of business. Space travel is a political way for governments to ego trip to create kinda societal popularity and draw attention away from their failures in election time. I really dont think the powers at be care at all about moving planets and space exploration its just the picture on the ceiling while your at the dentist to them. As long as they can stay in power and keep high life salery theyre happy m hm. Mean while they're despiration to get up in the air and get ratings results in horrendous disasters where the space ships havnt been checked properly. (i think its possible the rush to get in the air without the checks and whatnot in thoise disasters and government desperation is linked in some way...maybe?) LMAO wow i'm reeeaally on one he he sorry he he.

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 25 2007, 10:17 PM Post #68
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	QUOTE(nn23) hi, i'm new to this sort of stuff btw. Oh yeah, and Darth, i never new that was by socrates, coolus maximus he he. Well "Grandma" (born in 1908?) with your 98 years you still learned something useful!!! By the way nn23, with your face and all that age, are you an "highlander" or a "vampire"? QUOTE(nn23) Space travel is a political way for governments to ego trip to create kinda societal popularity and draw attention away from their failures in election time. I really dont think the powers at be care at all about moving planets and space exploration its just the picture on the ceiling while your at the dentist to them. As long as they can stay in power and keep high life salery theyre happy m hm. Mean while they're despiration to get up in the air and get ratings results in horrendous disasters where the space ships havnt been checked properly. (i think its possible the rush to get in the air without the checks and whatnot in thoise disasters and government desperation is linked in some way...maybe?) LMAO wow i'm reeeaally on one he he sorry he he. Hummm...I think you are almost right. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 25 2007, 10:24 PM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

nn23 View Member Profile	Feb 26 2007, 01:48 AM Post #69
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 461 Joined: 24-February 07 Member No.: 113,791	considerin i been up all night with my heitened state of well bein, i'd sayyyyy.... i was a vampy, who doesnt mind sinkin her teeth into a glass or two of the 12 year old Glenfiddich This post has been edited by nn23: Feb 26 2007, 01:51 AM

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 26 2007, 09:44 PM Post #70
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	QUOTE considerin i been up all night with my heitened state of well bein, i'd sayyyyy.... i was a vampy, who doesnt mind sinkin her teeth into a glass or two of the 12 year old Glenfiddich I accept what you have said, but I would prefer a glass or two of the 18 year old Glenfiddich. Hey nn23, I think we are , don't you? Regards, Darthy -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

« Next Oldest · The Speak Easy · Next Newest »

1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)

0 Members: