Space Exploration

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Space Exploration

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cowsgonemadd3 View Member Profile	Feb 4 2007, 09:22 AM Post #46
Feed me some spyware! Group: Banned Posts: 4,557 Joined: 18-July 04 From: USA Ware Shoals SC Member No.: 1,500	" I think what Fozzie means is that without funding for the space programme how are we supposed to research into faster ways of space travel?" Well most of the money they spend is not on new ways of space travel I bet. Its making and sending bots to mars and wherever.

fozzie View Member Profile	Feb 4 2007, 09:26 AM Post #47
aut viam inveniam aut faciam Group: Members Posts: 3,510 Joined: 14-November 06 From: Ossendrecht/The Netherlands Member No.: 95,557	QUOTE(athelos @ Feb 4 2007, 12:37 PM) I think what Fozzie means is that without funding for the space programme how are we supposed to research into faster ways of space travel? What I meant is that without space travel they wouldn't be able to test the ability for instance to travel at "warp speed " (Beam me up Scottie) NIce pictures athelos!! -------------------- Free antivirus : AVG Free Free Anti-spyware AVG Anti Spyware Free Firewall :Zone Alarm Ccleaner Ad aware & Manual SpybotS&D&Manual Free Handy programs

Constantine View Member Profile	Feb 4 2007, 04:43 PM Post #48
Forum Regular Group: Members Posts: 275 Joined: 14-December 04 From: Byron Bay, Australia Member No.: 7,128	I hate to be a party pooper Athelos, but most of those views are not the views you get from space (unless you happen to be looking thru the Hubble telescope. There were 2 or 3 there that were near earth orbit views. The rest were galaxies seen thru a very large telescope. Having said that, I agree with you. I would love to go into space. (If my old ticker could take it.) -------------------- I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

athelos View Member Profile	Feb 4 2007, 05:20 PM Post #49
Member Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 10-December 06 Member No.: 100,544	Firstly, thats good to hear DSTM! Glad you and everyone else liked them . QUOTE I hate to be a party pooper Athelos, but most of those views are not the views you get from space (unless you happen to be looking thru the Hubble telescope. Yeah...well..I know but they done the point . Plus one day hopefully we will be able to look at these through the window of a shuttle or "ship". They may not seem exactly the same but it'll still be a amazing view. QUOTE Well most of the money they spend is not on new ways of space travel I bet. Its making and sending bots to mars and wherever. Baby-steps cowsgonemad, baby-steps. First Mars then the universe muhahahaha! .....ahem. What i mean is you cant expect us just to come up with "warp speed" or something along those lines. We have to start somewhere and then progress (fingers crossed). -------------------- Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia. --Charles Schultz

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 4 2007, 05:59 PM Post #50
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	QUOTE(cowsgonemadd3 @ Feb 4 2007, 06:22 AM) " I think what Fozzie means is that without funding for the space programme how are we supposed to research into faster ways of space travel?" Well most of the money they spend is not on new ways of space travel I bet. Its making and sending bots to mars and wherever. That's actually an interesting point; NASA hasn't really pushed for new forms of propulsion. There is one new engine type that's been used on probes (not exactly new...the design has been around a while, just not in practical use) called an ion engine. These engines don't provide very much thrust at any one time. In fact, the force they produce is something along the lines of a piece of paper laying on you hand. But: they can produce this thrust for a long time, unlike conventional rockets that are used for a few seconds or a couple of minutes tops. Another option is the nuclear rocket...which uses a nuclear reactor to heat up gasses which are then vented through a nozzle to produce thrust...but these have many dangers associated with them, and have never gone into production. The obvious threat is an explosion in our atmosphere, radioactive material being spread through out the upper atmosphere. Though it's been suggested that such rockets could be used on vehicles that are already a safe distance from Earth. The propulsion I would like to see developed is called a solar sail. A vessel with a solar sail has no conventional engines; it uses a thin, highly reflective material to create a large surface that uses photons from the sun for propulsion. Sounds weird eh? Well, basically it works like this: photons, or particles of light, have a tiny but measurable amount of momentum. When they are reflected, they bounce off...and some of that momentum is transferred...ie, in this case, to the solar sail. Now again, this amount of energy is infinitesimally small...but it's happening billions (trillions?) of times a second. The more reflective the sail, the larger it's area, the faster the ship can accelerate. You can turn the sails to adjust thrust; you can even use the sails to slow the ship down, when you orbit a planet and come back around toward the sun, then unfurl them 100%. Imagine...no fuel to carry, to toxic propulsion systems...just the light of the sun to scoot you around the solar system. Carl Sagan had suggested that one day we will have solar sailing ships miles across... Here's the homepage of Cosmos 1, a practical solar sailing probe, which unfortunately was destroyed before it had a chance to be tested, due to failure of the launch vehicle it was loaded on. -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 4 2007, 10:26 PM Post #51
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	QUOTE(yoopergirl @ Jan 27 2007, 05:04 AM) Not very important, no, zero tax dollars should be spent on exploration. There's better, more important things on our planet to take care of first. Like, saving and making better use of the planet that we are ON. Let's also take care of homelessness, poverty, starvation, the elderly, universal health for Americans, making sure every child has a GOOD education, for free. I dunno, whats wrong with dealing with the problems that we face now before making 100 new problems somewhere else? IMHO I'm with you yoopergirl. QUOTE(locally pwned @ Jan 28 2007, 01:47 AM) ...Here's what NASA has to say about why we should continue manned exploration. I'm curious to see what Darthy's got to say about this thread, since he doesn't think we have left Earth orbit yet. Well locally pwned, here we are talking about this issue again. As you know, I'm completely sure that We ... Did ... Not ... Go ... To ... Moon. First of all let's destroy our planet and then we can go to other planets and make the same thing with them. For those who want to know why I'm telling those kind of things, go to this forum and read the topic "Did We Really Land On The Moon?" In there I explain why I don't beleive we gone to the Moon. Regards, Darthy -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 6 2007, 08:44 AM Post #52
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	Darthy, we might just find out...JAXA, the Japanese space agency, is planning to send a probe to the Moon, which may be able to take images of high enough resolution to detect the lunar lander remains. But then, you still have yet to explain why the US would have chosen to "shown off" it's technical prowess by faking a failed moon landing! -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 6 2007, 02:18 PM Post #53
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	QUOTE(locally pwned @ Feb 6 2007, 01:44 PM) Darthy, we might just find out...JAXA, the Japanese space agency, is planning to send a probe to the Moon, which may be able to take images of high enough resolution to detect the lunar lander remains. But then, you still have yet to explain why the US would have chosen to "shown off" it's technical prowess by faking a failed moon landing! Like I said, may be by the time of the Apollo 13 mission in April 1970, public interest in space travel was beginning to diminish. Respectfully, Darthy -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 6 2007, 06:08 PM Post #54
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	QUOTE(Darthy @ Feb 6 2007, 11:18 AM) QUOTE(locally pwned @ Feb 6 2007, 01:44 PM) Darthy, we might just find out...JAXA, the Japanese space agency, is planning to send a probe to the Moon, which may be able to take images of high enough resolution to detect the lunar lander remains. But then, you still have yet to explain why the US would have chosen to "shown off" it's technical prowess by faking a failed moon landing! Like I said, may be by the time of the Apollo 13 mission in April 1970, public interest in space travel was beginning to diminish. Respectfully, Darthy Where's the NASA memo that said, "guys, lets fake a failed shot...tragedy grasps public interest, and this way we won't even have to fake the moon images...." ??? Well, it's a decent guess...I suppose...I will give you a 7.2, and that's because I am being generous! -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 7 2007, 12:10 PM Post #55
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	Excuse me this question locally pwned: Do you really beleive, without any doubt, that Apollo missions landed on Moon? I have to know if you beleive or not, because if you do I have to talk with you about the Van Allen Belts. Regards, Darthy -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 8 2007, 07:45 AM Post #56
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	QUOTE(Darthy @ Feb 7 2007, 09:10 AM) Excuse me this question locally pwned: Do you really beleive, without any doubt, that Apollo missions landed on Moon? I have to know if you beleive or not, because if you do I have to talk with you about the Van Allen Belts. Regards, Darthy Yes Darthy, I do indeed believe that human beings did in fact play golf on the Moon. So let's talk about those belts... -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

athelos View Member Profile	Feb 8 2007, 06:03 PM Post #57
Member Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 10-December 06 Member No.: 100,544	Van halen...thats a band isnt it? Seriously though. If you want to talk about the Van Allen belts then lets. Mr James Van Allen actually dismissed the idea himself (before he dies of course) that these belts of radiation would have killed the Apollo crew. They would have recieved a non lethal dose, in fact a, harmless dose. While researching into it abit deeper I also found that NASA; "...deliberately timed Apollo launches, and used lunar transfer orbits that only skirted the edge of the belt over the equator to minimize the radiation..." The crew would have had a slightly higher chance of getting radiation than most of us "earthlings" -------------------- Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia. --Charles Schultz

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 8 2007, 09:33 PM Post #58
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	I remember very well in 1969 a square golf ball entered in our atmosphere and shoot a pteranodont over the Pacific Ocean. Well LP let's talk about the Van Allen radiation belts. As you know, the moon is 240,000 miles away and the space shuttle has never gone more than 400 miles from the Earth. Except for Apollo astronauts, no humans even claim to have gone beyond low-earth orbit. When the space shuttle astronauts did get to an altitude of 400 miles, the radiation of the Van Allen belts forced them to a lower altitude. The Van Allen radiation belts exist because the Earth's magnetic field traps the solar wind. Qualitatively, it is very useful to view this belt as consisting of two belts around Earth, the inner radiation belt and the outer radiation belt. The particles are distributed such that the inner belt consists mostly of protons while the outer belt consists mostly of electrons. Within these belts are particles capable of penetrating about 1 g/cm2 [1] of shielding (e.g., 1 millimetre of lead). The Earth's Van Allen Belts consists of highly energetic ionized paticles trapped in the Earth's geomagnetic fields. On the sunward side of the Earth, the geomagnetic fields are compressed by the Solar Wind while on the opposite side of the Earth, the geomagnetic fields extend to three Earth Radii. As a result, the geomagnetic field form an elongated cavity, known as the Chapman-Ferraro Cavity, around the Earth. Within this cavity, reside the Van Allen Radiation Belts. These radiation belts are composed of electrons with thousand eV energies, and protons with million eV energies. The particles in the belts are not directly injected by the Solar Wind. Magetic fields of a magnitude of 0.3 gauss prevent the Solar Wind from directly entering the radiation belts. Most of the particles result from neutron Albedo. Neutron Albedo is the process where Solar Flare particles interact. Van Allen Belts The thickness of the second Van Allen belt it's approximately 4,510^4 miles (45000 miles) and the speed of the astronauts was about 18000 miles/Hr., which means that they were inside that belt approximately 2 and an half hours+2 and an half hours in their return. In accordance with my calculations, the astronauts were, only in the second Van Allen belt, 5 hours. Quoting NASA, The Radiation Belts QUOTE The Earth actually has two radiation belts of different origins. The inner belt, the one discovered by Van Allen's Geiger counter, occupies a compact region above the equator (see drawing, which also includes the trajectories of two space probes) and is a by-product of cosmic radiation. It is populated by protons of energies in the 10-100 Mev range, which readily penetrate spacecraft and which can, on prolonged exposure, damage instruments and be a hazard to astronauts. Both manned and unmanned spaceflights tend to stay out of this region. How can the NASA say such a thing like this when, at the same time, pretend that Apollo missions went to the Moon and crossed these regions twice? There is something isn't quite right. A Mega Electron Volt is 10^6 ev (1000000 ev) and 100 Mev are 10^8 ev (100000000 ev) which is a great, great amout of energy for each particle. Inside the belts there are zillions of particles with this energy and only a fool would stay in this region for more than 15 minutes!!! And when he got out of there would be better that he went immediately to a decontamination center. I'll wait your reply LP. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 9 2007, 10:09 AM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates* Thanks John

locally pwned View Member Profile	Feb 9 2007, 06:56 AM Post #59
Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 2-March 06 From: Portland, Oregon Member No.: 57,604	Darthy, I don't have a lot of time for an in-depth response right now. But here's my 2 cents: the issue is not the energy of the particles but the density of the radiation in the belts and the relatively short amount of time the astronauts spent traveling through them. A few hours through the most dense regions would mean that the astronauts were surely hit by these particles, but were not exposed long enough to cause short-term problems. The Sun's corona is a similar situation. The particles in the corona have an extremely high temperature, around a million degrees (ie, high energy) compared to the surface of the Sun, which is a paltry 5800 K. However the number of particles contained in the corona is so low that the corona itself has a relatively low amount of energy. By the way, the astronauts were also open to cosmic rays while outside the Earth's magnetic field. I remember reading that Armstrong reported to the doctors back on Earth that he had seen "light flashes" in his eyes while on the Moon. These flashes are thought to have been caused by cosmic rays impacting cells in his retina. Again, the fact that the missions lasted days (and only hours through the dense regions of the belts) rather than weeks or months (or years) was the reason no short-term effects (aka radiation poisoning, ect) occurred. I would assume that NASA, cautioning space flight above a certain altitude above the Earth, is warning about the dangers of long-term missions. -------------------- "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." - Albert Einstein "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands." - Douglas Adams

Darthy View Member Profile	Feb 9 2007, 05:05 PM Post #60
The red side of the Force Group: Members Posts: 1,060 Joined: 30-April 06 From: Solar System of Ors Member No.: 66,152	When you have enough time, tell me something more LP, I'll wait. Regards, Darthy This post has been edited by Darthy: Feb 10 2007, 11:19 AM -------------------- Εν οίδα οτι ουδέν οίδα (I only know that I know nothing) - Socrates Thanks John

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