BleepingComputer.com: Better to turn off computer and unplug or not?

I have perused the internet in search of an answer to this, asked friends about it, and asked pros in the field. I have yet to find a definitive answer to this.

I am in the habit of unplugging anything that is not in use in my house. The only things I leave plugged in indefinitely are the refrigerator, microwave (the connection is behind the refrigerator), and any lights controlled by switches (I don't think disengaging this would do anything anyway given the physical properties of a switch). However, the TV is unplugged until I need to use it, lights that go through an outlet are unplugged until I need them, as are peripheral chargers like for my cell phone or even my external backup (mostly because if a power surge occurs, I don't want my comp to fry as well as my external backup). I unplug with two missions in mind: conserve energy (save me money!) and prevent anything from being destroyed or otherwise damaged if a power surge were to occur (I have surge protectors, but we should all know they aren't foolproof--as my last computer can attest to).

So, I want to, whenever I turn my computer off, disconnect the entire surge protector from the wall. Now, this requires me to crawl under my desk and do that, which is not the most comfortably daily process to go through twice (plug in in the morning, unplug at night). Obviously, the best way to prevent damage from a surge is to unplug it. However, I've come to terms that it is probably less likely than I'm making it out to be, so I'm willing to leave my computer plugged in for the sake of comfort and ease of use (and this also depends on the weather going on outside). But my question involves whether unplugging entirely is good for the computer or not. I wonder if turning all power off to the computer on a daily basis is healthy for it. I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be, but I feel a bit iffy about cutting it every day. When I turn off my computer, I shut down the computer through the Start Menu, then I flip the power supply switch, wait for the light on the mobo to turn off, then flip the power off switch on the surge protector (of course turn monitors off before all this), then disconnect from the wall. I worry that putting a surge of power every morning through the mobo might not be the best regular practice for it.

So, I am wondering if it is detrimental at all to cut power entirely to a computer and restore it entirely on a daily basis?

Also (I'm sure there are already articles about this on BC, but I have done research on this and found "inconclusive" results), I'm curious if powering down hard drives every day is harmful for the drives instead of leaving them spinning. I've seen quite the number of mixed reviews on this topic and found nothing satisfactory to either side.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by HamSandwich: 20 January 2010 - 12:25 AM

HamSandwich, on Jan 19 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

You own damage demonstrates reality. The well proven (100+ year old) solution does not exist in your building. Plug-in protectors can even contribute to damage of the adjacent appliance.

All appliances contain significant protection. Most (mythical) surges cause no damage due to existing protection. Disconnecting does nothing when using appliances. The effective solution means no damage 24/7. No damage even when using them during thunderstorms. What protects your bathroom GFCIs, smoke detectors, furnace, dishwasher, etc? Nothing. According to popular myths, all those are often damaged?

All appliances contain internal protection. Computers are most robust appliances (which is why UPSes can harm small motors and power strip protectors but not harm computers). Your concern is the rare transient (typically once every seven years). A solution proven over 100 years ago. A solution unknown to an overwhelming majority educated only by advertising and retail salesmen.

Your telco's computer connects to overhead wires all over town. So your town is disconnected from phone service whenever a thunderstorm approaches? No? That computer, confronted by about 100 surges with each storm - is damaged so that your town is without phone service for four days? No? Telcos everywhere in the world remain connected always and use a 100 year old solution. A solution that your plug-in protector violates.

Appliance protection is always about where energy dissipates. Either energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or that energy dissipates destructively inside the building. If using a plug-in protector, then energy has even more paths to hunt for earth - destructively. Your choice. Telcos spend tens or 100 times less money using a 100 year old solution. You obtain same only from responsible companies such has General Electric, Siemens, Leviton, Intermatic, Square D, etc. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes for less than $50. Routine, simple, obvious, and unknown to most every reader. A superior solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Instead, a majority replace science with word association. Surge protector sounds like surge protection. Therefore it must be same? No.

A protector is only a connecting device. No protector is protection. None. No protector is protection. Either a protector connects surges to protection - single point earth ground. Or a surges has even more paths destructively via appliances. You suffered just that. Your previous damage is a classic example of ineffective protectors. It did exactly what that manufacturer specification numbers claim. Numbers - what the overwhelming majority ignore to recommend an ineffective, scam solution.

Where is energy dissipated? Either earth a surge harmlessly where all utility wires enter the building. Or surges are inside the building - without or without a power strip protector - seeking earth ground destructively via appliances. Only protection already inside every appliance providing protection. Protection that may be overwhelmed when wasting money on plug-in 'miracle' boxes. Earth only one 'whole house' protector. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - obvious from science and 100 years of experience. Obvious because that solution is routine even in munitions dumps. Direct lightning strikes must never cause damage to any facilities - which is why earthing is upgraded and 'whole house' protectors are routine. Damage so easily averted that damage is directly traceable to human failure. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. You make that decision.

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This is really bad idea. Computer should be turned off ONLY through Start>Turn off computer.

As for keeping computer on, or off, there is no right, or wrong. It's the same as with the car: is it better to turn AC on, or open windows. Each way has pluses and minuses.
Go by your feelings. it depends how you use your computer.
I use my computer a lot, so I keep it up and O turn it off for the night (unless I have some scans running, for instance).

As for unplugging... I never unplug it. I invested in a good surge protector and I feel safe. Nothing ever happened in over 20 years.
Surely, if you live in some area experiencing huge storms, or you leave the house for extended period of time, you may unplug it.

As for other appliances, I never bothered to unplug anything.

Broni, on Jan 19 2010, 10:23 PM, said:

So that unsaved data can be saved to the disk. Meanwhile, when does hardware learn about the power off? When power is suddenly removed.

When does a disk drive first learn of power off? When DC voltage starts decreasing. Disk drives even 40 years ago worked this way. Makes no difference whether power is cut off by the power supply controller. Or by unplugging. To hardware, both power offs appear same.

Power off causing hardware damage is a popular myth. Many know using feelings rather than learn technology. Electricity cut off by the power supply controller, by a wall switch, or by a blackout; to hardware, every power off looks exactly same. Power off by any method only causes damage in myths.

Windows shutdown simply saves data before telling the power supply controller to brutally cut off power.

This is absolutely wrong.
One more time...
Computer should be turned off ONLY by using Start>Turn off. Period.
Computer is not a toaster.

Broni, I didn't include that in my processes to turn off because I simply assumed any right-minded person would do this method FIRST ALWAYS. Of course it is detrimental to perform a hardware break in power to the computer. I expected--at least with the amount of posts I have--for it to be clear enough that I at least understand how to turn off a computer. I'm not upset, but I felt it is clear and tacit that such a process has already been done when I flip the switch on my power supply. I have never heard of anyone doing any different than that. That's computers 101. However, I can see how it could have been misconstrued. I will edit it after I post this reply.

And it does seem like there wouldn't be any problem either way. You're probably right. It just seems like since the mobo takes a few seconds before its power light goes off, that it had to somehow "power down", and to me this seemed like a process a mobo shouldn't have to do very often. I figured maybe a computer is meant to retain a small amount of power for some reason.

westom, honestly, what are you even talking about? Your post is filled with a lot of seemingly useful information, but none of it is really applicable to me. How can I use this so-called "100 year old solution"? I did not see you mention the ACTUAL solution once, or at least in a clear and concise manner for me and anyone else reading this post to fully grasp. I am going to simply assume either your post is spam or you are just a lackluster writer. Either way, as it seems to me, your posts offer nothing pertinent directly to the discussion. If you could elaborate exactly what this "100 year old solution" might be and how I can directly use it, I'd be more than happy to hear you out.

Does anyone else have any ideas on the topic?

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I apologize, if you felt offended by my statement

HamSandwich, on Jan 20 2010, 01:24 AM, said:

First, solutoins was provided. You are disconnecting to protect hardware? In factilities that can never have damage, that is not done. Disconnecting is unreliable protection. Does not protect hardware when using it.

Only solution used is what your telco, radio station, airport, and even munitions dumps do. Earth one 'whole house' protectors. Why is that difficult? Because it costs less money, it must not work? The only solution is also what was done even 100 years ago. Can I make this any easier?

Early 20th Century ham radio operators would disconnect. Even put the antenna lead inside a mason jar. And still have damage. Damage stopped when the well proven solution was installed. Provided were manufacturers who make this solution. Even easier. Go to Lowes. Buy the 'less than $50' Cutler-Hammer solution. Properly install it. Stop disconnecting. Don't ask why. Have your worries eliminated completely. Or keep disconnecting for less hardware protection.

Second. Power off is exacty same whether you do a shutdown, yank the plug from the back, or power off at the main circuit breaker. Only difference - some will not save unsaved data. All power off look exactly same to all electronic hardware. Makes no difference where electricity is disconnected. To hardware, every power off is same.

How many power supplies have others designed? I built them even 30 years ago. How many worked on disk drives? I was doing it in the 1970s when unexpectded power off could never cause hardware damage even then.

Only myths based in wild speculation worry about which switch or broken wire disconnects electricity. To all hardware, that Windows Shutdown turns off power exactly same as yanking the power cord. That Windows Shutdown button only does one thing. Saves data before yanking power off unexpectedly to computer's hardware.

Why do lights slowly dim out? Electrolytic capacitors inside every power supply. One spec for supply design defines how long electronics must remain 100% powered after AC mains completely disconnect. Nothing inside a computer informs any hardware that power will be turned off. Because no hardware needs such warnings.

This post has been edited by westom: 20 January 2010 - 01:07 AM

westom, on Jan 20 2010, 02:02 AM, said:

Well, disconnecting from the wall would seem to protect hardware from an electrical surge. Considering my phone is protected being in my hand and not connected to the wall, or my headphones, or the pen on my desk--if it is not connected directly to an outlet or something which is connected directly to an outlet, the likelihood of a surge destroying the product is nil. The only way it could is through a window or the wall, and only through a lightning bolt (which of course is quite unlikely). I do not see how a component that is entirely disconnected from an outlet or any electronic source is somehow still just as much at danger as my computer, or my TV, or my microwave which are all connected directly to outlets. Logically, it just doesn't make sense. That's like saying a book which is in a cool, dry place such as a closet on a shelf is just as much at danger of being soaked with water as the bar of soap I use in the shower every morning.

When you say this : "Does not protect hardware when using it.", do you mean when my computer is connected to the wall, as opposed to not being connected? Of course when it is connected to the wall it is has the same danger as exactly when it's connected to the wall. This is why I ask if anything can go inline that can help protect me more.

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You can make it easier by naming the exact product name--word-for-word--and the maker of said product. I see you named Cutler-Hammer, but this company (I've looked at their website) makes a number of electrical products. Which exact one are you referring to?

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Once again, I do not understand how damage could occur to the antenna from an electrical surge when the antenna is in no way connected to any electrical source.

If you could name the product and also provide me a link to somewhere online either describing the product or selling it, I would greatly appreciate it.

@Broni: I do understand you simply doing the routine set of questions. It's all good.

Well, I guess westom had nothing more specific to say. All in all, his posts were quite useless, unfortunately.

Does anyone else have an idea on this topic? If I need to clarify what I mean by it, please let me know.

the computer needs to be shutdown properly. i advise turning it off for the night when done with it, but it needs to be done proper, usually by going through the start button like previously mentioned. with windows XP on up, you can set the power button on the front of the computer to shut the computer down properly by simply pressing on it but you need to go into power options and set it to do that. that would be ok, as long as its a you press the button once lightly (dont hold it down till it shuts down) and the computer automatically shuts windows down. just flipping the switch is hard on computers.

HamSandwich, on Jan 21 2010, 08:34 PM, said:

In the early 20th Century, ham radio operators would disconnect their antenna, put the lead inside a mason jar, and still suffer damage. Damage stopped when the antenna was earthed. That you do not understand it does not change reality.

Why did lightning strike 18th Century wooden church steeples? Even wood is an electrical conductor. Did you also know that? A steeple is struck because it is an electrically conductive path to earth.

Protection is always about earthing that current. Dissipating that energy harmlessly in earth so that energy is not inside the building. Or as the NIST says:
> What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but
> simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.
Neither suppress nor arrest because nothing in-line can provide effective protection.

Disconnecting is only effect protection if you never connect. To have effective computer protection means you never connect any computer to AC electric. If you think surges only occur after you hear thunder, well, it does not work that way. Even stray cars to telephone poles may create a surge.

Effective protection means nothing is damage by a surge. Only way to have effective protection means even the refrigerator is never connected to AC mains.

Lightning has no problem conducting through one of the best insulators on earth - air. Three miles of sky could not stop lightning. Why would anything in-line stop it? Did Franklin block lightning from striking that church steeple? Or course not. No protector stops or blocks surges. But blocking or absobing is the myth that promotes plug-in (in-line) solutions. Surge protection ('whole house' protector OR lightning rod) is always about diverting energy harmlessly to earth. A 100 year old solution that remains the only solution.

'Whole house protector' is (essentially) the model number for all (too many) such devices. It must be rated about 50,000 amps or higher. And it must have what any and every effective protector must have - that dedicated wire for a short ('less than 10 foot') connection to earth ground. But then I made finding it even easier:
> ... obtain same only from responsible companies such has General Electric, Siemens, Leviton, Intermatic,
> Square D, etc. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes for less than $50.

Ask for a 'whole house' protector. If the salesman does not have it or does not know what that is, then leave. Any electrical supply house, Lowes, or Home Depot have them. Or get an electrician to find one and install it.

Energy permitted inside a building will find earth destructively even via conductive materials such as linoleum, baseboard heat, concrete, etc. If your furnace, dishwasher, or refrigerator is damaged, then disconnecting was not effective protection. Effective protection means nothing is damaged. High reliability facilities never use disconnecting; instead earth a 'whole house' protector. Effective protection even means using a connected computer during every thunderstorm without damage. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why earth ground is upgraded to both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. Which is why every incoming wire is earthed - either directly or via a protector - before entering the building. That is the only solution used everwhere when damage cannot happen.

I can only speak from experience. Way back in the day, (1995 or 96 I think) I had a Packard Bell PC that was plugged in, and on 90 % of the time. It survived for years, until one night, a thunderstorm hit, and the power went out, when the power came back on, the Packard Bell didn't. RIP old friend. I can only assume that it was hit by lightning, it fried the telephone also.

From then on I used a UPS on my PC, but, when I hear a thunderstorm approaching, I shut the PC down (start >Shut PC off) then shut off the UPS, then unplug the UPS.

Our power goes out at least one a month here, but what is worse, it will go to half power. Where the light will be on, but very dim. Any appliance with a motor is in danger, because some motors require a fan, to keep it cool, if the motor isn't up to speed, it may not run cool enough. So during power outages I unplug those appliances. (and plug them into my generator)

I lost a standalone DVD burner this way. One day I came home, to find the power had gone out. It wasn't that the power just went off, but rather the low voltage that (I can only assume) caused the DVD burner to burn out.
At the same time, my external DVD burner was plugged into the same UPS as my PC, both survived. Had I unplugged the standalone, it might have survived.

So my vote is to unplug your PC.

Oh, one more thing. . . about the microwave, one day, while my sister was at work, her microwave, for no apparent reason, shorted out, and caught fire. It burned through the counter top, and the floor, and fell into the basement. The steel insulated door next to the microwave melted partially from the heat. Luckily, the people next door saw the smoke, and called the fire dept. they saved the house, but the kitchen was heavily damaged.

This post has been edited by 12x48y: 01 February 2010 - 08:34 AM

12x48y, on Feb 1 2010, 09:22 AM, said:

Your every example is observation not tempered by basic knowledge. For example, what part is harmed by low voltage? Even semiconductor datasheets list parameters down to -0.7 volts. Yes, even datasheets 40 years ago defined voltages dropping to zero. Then go to -0.7 volts without damage. Low voltage only damages when observation alone results in conclusions. And that is the definition of junk science.

This post is based in generations of experience (including autopsies) and tempered by design knowledge. Experience based in knowing how things work. Repeated experience that exposed 'observation without fundamental knowledge' as junk science.

Motors in electronic appliances (ie fan motor in a computer) are not at risk. First learn how those motors are powered. Electronics must work normally even as incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Therefore electronics motors (ie fans) are powered from a power supply. When AC mains cause 50% bulb intensity, DC voltages that drive a fan motor are at 100% and stable. That stable voltage is the supply's job. Motor not at risk.

Suspected was damage due to lightning. A human failure. That UPS does not even claim protection from lightning. Even 100 years ago, earthed protectors were installed so that lightning causes no harm. Even operators with headsets attached to their heads would not disconnect and stop working. Lightning damage to operators also not acceptable. Protection even 100 years ago was about well proven earthing and a 'whole house' protector.

Learn from so many scary pictures and from a fire marshal who describes why a problem exists:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-le...otectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

So, what should be disconnected? Scary pictures demonstrate what is better disconnected.

Observation alone - those pictures - only imply a problem. Facts why the problem exists are necessary - and provided. Another example of 'knowing' only if the supporting facts (reasons why) are also provided. Any conclusion without knowing why (without learning the underlying principles) is classic junk science.

Was your 1995 building properly earthed with 'whole house' protectors? Destructive surges occur typically once every seven years. Did you learn from the experience? Did you learn from 100 years of science? Or did hearsay promote a myth not supported by facts? Knowledge always requires learning the underlying reasons why. Or learning from those who demand same.

Low voltage does not damage electronics. International standards even 40 years ago were quite blunt about this design requirement. Low voltage area on that chart includes this phrase in all capital letters: "No Damage Region". Show me a datasheet from any electronics part that states damage due to low voltage. You cannot. None exist - despite so much hearsay.

Fix the problem. If disconnecting is necessary, then never connect any appliance to AC mains - including the dishwasher, furnace, and smoke detectors.

Low voltage did not cause a microwave fire. Otherwise you can define an electronic part that fails due to low voltage. You cannot. Low voltage only causes damage when myths are promoted using wild speculation based only in observation. Disconnecting is recommended routinely by those who did not learn basic principles. Conclusions based in speculation rather than learning facts.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

That's quite a coincidence that after a power failure (low voltage brown out whatever) a Funai SV2000 DVR, and 2 GPX compact disc players, decided to stop working.

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The house was wired by a licensed electrician, and inspected by codes.

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I didn't say that the microwave fire was cause by low voltage.
It was my sisters microwave in her house, not mine. Read the post Einstein.

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Looks like you're the expert on junk science.

Kidding, you make some good points.