BleepingComputer.com: Name one government program that works

To be quite frank, the system simply hasn't worked without "more government". Don't get me wrong, a government takeover is a little frightening sounding, but I'd rather we tried something rather than just sit around and point fingers. In my opinion, the primary reason so many people are against this plan is because they are convinced that the American public will have to foot the bill, where- if I understand President Obama's plan correctly, the wealthiest of Americans will have to pay off the expenditures, thus saving the general public from a headache in taxation. Most republicans and many conservatives tend to earn top-dollar profits, so it makes sense that they'll complain about this - but it's not like they can't afford it. Quite frankly, if they would pool up their savings and their income, and live a bit more modestly and spent less money on whatever, I bet they could comfortably pay off the President's HR plan.

This post has been edited by mikerox: 01 August 2009 - 07:40 PM

You got to be kidding me. Where did you come up with;
Most republicans and many conservatives tend to earn top-dollar
To me it sounds like Karl Heinrich Marx. Take from those that got and give it to those that don't. Mr Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto. It didn't work then and it won't work now.
p/s I work in a car dealership 50 hours a week plus. No I'm not rich but I will pay my own way.

I feel that the answer is not if a government program works or not but rather if it is allowed by our Constitution. Any program tham takes from some to give to others most assuredly does not pass Constitutional muster.

This post has been edited by Bezukhov: 02 August 2009 - 09:49 AM

You have got that correct Bezukhov it will not pass the Constitutional testing.

Wouldn't social security then not pass our Constitutional Testing? We the taxpayers have to pay for the government program so that our elders are able to live within decent financial means. This is not that much different, in my opinion - some of us will have to give the government our a portion of our income so that we the people can actually have health insurance (mostly high-income, and possibly some moderate taxation on the middle class). We've paid money to spy on individuals who show no signs of terrorist or terrorist-like activity, unethical torture of Guantanamo Bay detainees, and $12 Billion/month wars. Why can't we pay money to try and upgrade an outdated and unfair insurance company run healthcare system?

This post has been edited by mikerox: 10 August 2009 - 11:59 AM

" Wouldn't Social Security then not pass our Constitutional Testing?" I am sorry to report , Mikerox, that it does not. The Constitution, Article I, Section 8 clearly delineates what Congress can spend our taxes on. Among these are to "establish Post Offices and post Roads", "raise and support Armies", "provide and maintain a Navy"€etc. People get confused with the term "œGeneral Welfare". Simply put it means that any money that Congress appropriates must benefit everyone equally. If the Government takes a dollar from you and gives it to me my "Welfare" has increased at your expense. If the Government decides to build an aircraft carrier with our money we all benefit by having a stronger Navy. Whether we need that aircraft carrier or not is a question for internet forums and ultimately the ballot box. The same argument can be used for Health Care or any other redistributionist scheme one may dream up.
As to what you say about spying on American Citizens, torture, and senseless wars I am in complete agreement. Just one more example of our Legislature abdicating it's responsibility for oversight.

This post has been edited by Bezukhov: 11 August 2009 - 04:28 AM

Is it no wonder that America does not have a Viable Health Care Scheme that is working?

Read what Americans have been posting after other Countries have Posted about what is working in their own Countries. "It could be against our Constitution?"

Edit? That Comment about Constitutional Behavavour is, unfortunately used too many times by Americans to be Funny. All it does is prevent Ideas that just may work being tried by the Ruling Government. So Americans miss out and the Lobbyests win each time.

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 11 August 2009 - 05:56 AM

I have been reading the post and I have noticed the ages the best I can. It may or may not indicate some thing. To me it seems that only us that have some years on have read and understand the Constitution. , unethical torture of Guantanamo Bay detainees, well you have been watching too much of of liberal msnbc T.V. I know that schools don't teach history much any more. Some should take it upon them self to indulge in some history of this county with out the view point of there teacher. You have a computer do some research. Some have remembered the talking points just like they were trained to. NO this is not a bad country; history will prove it. We want health care for every body but in the correct way. A health care system that comes in effect in 2013, well we have time to listen and learn what changes are or are not. Some where around 70% of the people in this country say no to the change to our health care system with out more study and understanding. WHAT IS THE HURRY? A 19 year old persons grand children will be paying for a bad health care program and maybe longer than that. We have already given them a few trillion dollar stimulus package on them, isn't that enough? Lets do our home work and be care full.

"Ideas that just may work being tried by the Ruling Government."

We got rid of a 'Ruling Government' in 1776. We do not want one back. Our government is supposed to be 'for the people, by the people'. Our Constitution (and in particular the first ten amendments) is the only thing that guarantees we do not fall back under a 'Ruling Government'.

1776

I thought we were getting rid of control and taxation by a government we had no say or representation in.

Just because Obama won and the health care system here in America is in bad shape does not mean a national effort to fix the problem is in anyway an undemocratic occurence. The town meetings and public discussions prove this. If the majority of the American people oppose health care reform then we won't have it.

This post has been edited by DaChew: 12 August 2009 - 12:46 AM

I decided to join back in on this debate on recent news I have heard across the so called "Pond".

Some figures I have heard across here about this healthcare reform support, 2 years ago supposedly around 70% of you thought that Healthcare needed some sort of change the latest figure is around 50%, I don't know if this is true but it seems to me this debate is basically split in half.

I've heard rumours of varying remarks from Republicans and other right wing supporters (As well as the insurance companies) against the Healthcare reforms in the US mocking our NHS system and spouting lies about it thus alienating more Americans into thinking how they do, I haven't heard specifics so would love to hear it from anyone on here if this is true, the only thing I have found is some odd remarks to it in this story, as well as oddly enough one of our own MEP's speaking bad about the NHS, who is described as eccentric according to his party leader - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8200817.stm

It seems to be true since it was reported by the BBC, I just can't understand what is so bad about this, to provide healthcare for 46 million people who don't have Health Insurance in the US currently as they probably can't afford it as well as yourself has got to be good, all I've read and heard about this is that it's against the Constitution and in these town meetings across the US that it is seen as some sort of Communist coup, I even quote one American women as saying "we don't want this country turning into a Communist country like Russia", No offence but is it me or have half of you gone loopy? How the heck does having a National Healthcare system through the government make you turn into a communist country overnight?

This article pretty much sums up my opinion and thoughts of this and should open minds as to what most probably think here in the UK and maybe other countries with similar systems as well - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/blog/talking_poli.../article/55620/

Sarah Palin is even quoted as calling the NHS "evil", although I think I heard that is a more general comment against countries who do have Healthcare systems like the NHS.

The only credible argument or statement I have heard is that Americans don't want more Government intervention (yeah don't we all), we have speed cameras around the country as well as CCTV everywhere watching what we do around the city centre (Not around residential areas) they help for speeding and crimes so I'm grateful for that but it is annoying knowing that we are being watched anywhere we go, plus 1 in 78 of people living in the UK on average had some sort of Government body or the police requesting to read or hear our emails, phone calls and voicemail. The only reason Yanks don't have the speed cameras is because you'd shoot them (no surprise there, some shoot your own signs ).

Anyway healthcare is important for everyone, the government controlling it isn't bad, some of you act like it is all that is unholy on this planet, just think how lucky you are to get proper healthcare those poorer and less fortunate than us don't get that opportunity, they would take it with open arms and gratitude if they even got the chance towards any sort of healthcare for a price affordable to them.

As I've said before our NHS isn't perfect, what is?, but it's a healthcare system none the less which provides for everyone equally and fairly you pay an amount every year equivalent to what you earn, 46 million people in America have limited access to healthcare or none at all.
Do you think that is fair? you are denying them a chance to have good healthcare and a better life with that because I'd bet my bottom dollar that those who don't have healthcare or have limited healthcare on average live a shorter life than we who do have it.

If you have listened to and believed the spouted lies and utter drivel spoken by the right wing supporters against the NHS and healthcare reforms then God help you, it's isn't Government intervention, our Government has simply created an organisation (The NHS) which runs the system with it's own appointed people and is given a budget every year by the Government, after that the Government isn't involved anymore, trust me there is nothing wrong with this system we've had it for 60 years now, which is some feat.

The USA is the most powerful and wealthy nation on the planet (All be it with the largest amount of debt), yet it can't get the simplest of healthcare reforms through, Obama and his supporters are certainly fighting an uphill battle which unfortunately I don't think he'll win it.

ddeerrff said this earlier "Our government is supposed to be 'for the people, by the people'." that is exactly what the NHS is, it is by the people being the representatives of our Government (MP's) voted for by the public democratically for us the people of this country.

The last 2 paragraphs in that Yahoo article I quoted, perfectly and brilliantly sum up what some Americans can not seem to see.

We live in a mixed economy. We aim to have enough free market to control the state, and provide the things we want. But we also need enough socialism to ensure we do not live like savages, the weakest amongst us starving to death on the street while a rich woman buys a Gucci handbag. Socialism without capitalism turns to tyranny. Capitalism without socialism turns to barbarism.

The sooner Americans realise the truth of a mixed economy, the better their world will become. In the meantime, their right-wing pundits should learn from the NHS, not mock it.

So at the rate the Americans are going now it is going to be a one for one and one for all i.e. Barbarism.

Guess it's no wonder Americans confuse me sometimes

Maybe, as has been mentioned before, some people have not really looked into other Country's Systems fully and are relying on hype and misrepresentation from those with a vested interest?

For those that genuinely want to learn, here is a very good truthful Site on the Australian Medicare System in place here.

If you browse the Site it is all pretty well covered and applies to ALL Australians and Perminant Residents and is paid for by us all as a percentage of our Earnings. If more than the Basics are needed, then extras can be funded by Private Health Care.

http://www.publichospitals.com.au/

There is certainly nothing untoward about it, it makes ALL Australians Equal in Medical Care, in so far as NO Person needs to go without Treatment for lack of Money. Isn't that what Democracy is supposed to be? If it is not, then I apologise.

I personally have just returned from a few days in Hospital, second time in three weeks, with severe Respiratory Problems and can assure you that I am gratefull that it is Free to me. Both times I was Tested for Swine Flu, put in a Private Room, just in case. Was given the all clear in each Case. As an American could appreciate, that would cost mega dollars in another Country, let alone the other Treatments that I have received. It cost me nothing. Our System has worked very well since 1984 and is supposed to be a World Leader. By all means ask for more Information from your elected Law Makers, (Rulers), first and challange their Answers with your own Research, just don't be Blind Sheep?

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 16 August 2009 - 06:06 AM

Can't you Aussie's or Brit's get Rush Limbaugh on the radio over there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh

It's amazing how much influence he has here, of course he may just be telling some what they want to hear and saying what certain private interest groups want said.

He wouldn't be radio's highest paid talk show host otherwise.

This post has been edited by DaChew: 16 August 2009 - 07:08 AM

So it is really about how much Money you have as to what Medical Treatment an American can expect?

Is that what Americans think is Democracy? I really wonder? How can that be what Americans say is in their Constitution about "For the People by the People," if some of those people are excluded?

Can any American show where their Constitution excludes any Citizen? I think the World would like to see that?

Think about it? "For the People, by the People."

Your fore fathers really meant for you all to be equal.

Instead what happened? You know that better than the rest of the World?

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 16 August 2009 - 08:09 AM

Some very nice reading, thanks to all of you. Well; the people in this country are not saying that they don't want a health program that works for all, they are saying by over 70% they don't want this plan some one is trying to run up are ashes. I think a good plan that worked and we could pay for doesn't make insurances companies happy. Oh well. If the health care program there trying to shove up are ashes is so good why does congress keep the insurance they have and not use the new one that is be shoved. Thats right, the House and the Senate get to keep there insurance forever. No us out here are not in favor of this program and are not against our government just this plan as it is wrote. If a health plan passes it passes on how it is wrote NOT on what they tell us it is. The good intentions of all is not what is voted on. No those that ask question about this health program don't carry swastikas like Nancy Pelosi claims. Keep this in mind; it's not about health care it's about health insurance. Every body gets health care in this country. It's about who pays for it. This county gives health care to some were around 20 million ill legal people it's just the rest of us that have to pay for it. Once again I'm asking any body to show us a health program that the U.S. government runs that works and is not going broke? IMHO us who live in the good old U.S.A.want a health care program that works and we can pay for. The one we have now has about 70% plus saying they like there plan. No the 70% are not racist as some (with videos or guest) have stated on the news, FOX, MSNBC, CNN. We are just citizens that need more answers before we through the baby out with the wash water. That makes us AMERICANS. I'm one American veteran that needs more answers with out being called a bunch of names!