BleepingComputer.com: abortion: is it murder?

Zillo?

When my first wife had her Problems was Months after our Daughter was Born.

What would you Honestly call the thing that decided to Grow within her Tubes? Life? Or like a Tumour?

We considered that one a Tumour, as did the Doctors.

Always remember that nothing is cut and dried like we would like it.

Ladies need Honestly all the Help in this Situation, it really is their Body. You would never handle just the Pregnant part, Mate, Trust me? Ladies just grin and bear it mostly.

Sit alongside a Lady having a Baby and Wake up to the Miracle of Birth!

Abacus 7,

My main point in this discussion has not been to support or not support abortion, but to say that there is a difference between murder and killing.

With regard to the worries I hear in your statements, my feeling is that for most women, abortion is a difficult and emotionally painful experience, and it doesn't ease any feelings of loss by it being a tubal pregnancy. I don't see any validity in defining something as life at 3 months and one day and as not life at 2 months and 25 days for the simple reason that some government or some religious institution has defined it as such. I take the simple understanding that abortion is killing, (not murder) and that most people don't much like killing, because it admits a side of human nature we don't like to see in ourselves, even though it is part of what we are. In the case of a tubular pregnancy, in addition to the body losing the baby, it's accompanied by the knowledge that something went wrong in the body, and most people feel a lot of sadness when something goes wrong with their body.

I believe that the body has developed through millions of years and that it has the function of carrying us through life, of caring for us, of showing us with our senses everything about life, of providing us the tools to assess and learn from our experiences, and when something goes wrong in the body, the body itself seems to grieve its failings and that it can't provide for us in the way it was supposed to. There are moments when I think it's important to give it recognition for all it does for us and to let it know we care about it.

Zllio

Zillo,

You have a good grasp on Life, Mate, I admire that in anyone.

Can I Share this with you and others?

Sometimes the Ladies need to be just left alone and supported.

Our Australian indiginious People are recoginised as over 40,000+ years of age, yet some of their Stories have been ignored or put down as Myths?

One of them was covered in a Book by Margret Simons, (a White), it is very revelant here on this Subject. It was all about Ancient "Secret Women's Business" It was written about quite a controversial part of our History in the 1990s. It would fit into this Topic so well. Book's Name is"The Meeting of the Waters" sub title is "The Hindmarsh Island Affair" I can not think of a more worthy inclusion into this delicate Subject.

We mere Males can never understand what a Lady goes through when it comes to make that Choice.

I maybe can?

One look at my Wife's Face told me.

BTW the Book was given to me by my 18 year old Daughter that knows me and my Beliefs, that echo old Tradititions amongst Black and White here. (No Offense intended to anyone)

I am considered an Elder amongst my Friends, no matter where they come from.

If you can't find the Book, I am happy to send my Copy on to an address given by PM.

Thanks Abacus 7,

I appreciate knowing about the book and I'll see if I can find it here.

Today is Mary Cassatt day and in honor of women, I want to share this website:

http://www.marycassatt.org/

Although I've admired her work in the past, I never took the time to look at it more closely, and I appreciate the facial expressions which tell a world about women and girls as they are.

To me, some of the most tragic abortions are those carried out against women who had premarital sex with someone they loved in a country which forbids this. Those pregnancies, where the child is wanted, are, in my opinion, criminal, and the decision is not carried out in accordance with the woman's feelings, but by the subtle pressures of a society which can't accept a woman making her own decision about love. Equally criminal, I find, is the decision for a woman to have children she doesn't want for the purpose of satisfying an organization's ideology or as a source of income. I see both sides to this issue and support the side which allows a woman to know her own feelings.

Zllio

My thoughts?

No, it isn't. If done before the brain starts to develop, then it's not fully human and doesn't count as murder. Is a single piece of DNA human? A single cell? At what point does it cross from being a collection of cell to being human?

I believe that point can easily fit right at the time the brain begins forming. Thus, it's not murder. You don't say that getting rid of a wart is murder do you? Of course you don't, because a wart doesn't have a brain or self-awareness. You can kill the cells that make up a wart, but you can't murder it.

The lump of cells that is the pre-brain fetus is just that, a lump of cells. It has no humanity. If you argue about the humanity that it 'could' have, then your arguing for potential life, which is an endless and pointless argument. Every time a women has her period, she's committing murder because she didn't fertilizer every single one of those eggs. If a man has a wet dream, then he's committed murder over a thousand times while sleeping.

My position is they're not human yet. They're just biological nanobots. After the brain begins forming, they start to become self-aware, biological, mini-robots. Later, they are born and grow up, they are large and complex, self-aware biological robots.

And don't even get me started on the feel-good illusion we call life.

Hi dementedsnake,

Your definition of human life fits into a biological definition of what constitutes human life, and therefore fails to address the actual issues behind the topic of abortion. If abortion could be defined into categories of acceptable and not acceptable in accordance with this definition, people's feelings would be safely assured, however, the feelings around this discussion indicate there is something more than a discussion of biology going on. It's possible that the issue has nothing to do with cells, but with the power structures which govern society, and in which way authority will be dispensed in accordance with the governing of people's feelings.

Zllio

"Life" starts in the womb. Just because a fetus is not born yet, does not mean its not a human. Ending a life is murder, regardless of what people "think" is considered living for a fetus. The moment of conception is when life starts, so yes, it is murder.

Hm, okay. Those are both interesting points of view. I guess the main difference between us is I think it's our brains that make us human were you seem to think that it's our biology. I suppose we're both right to an extent. I'm not here to convince anybody, I just felt like adding my thoughts while I was here (I needed some computer help). I disagree about our definitions of human. Yes, genetically, a fetus with one cell is technically human, but I don't think that's enough to give it humanity. But I respect your thoughts on the subject and wish you both a nice day.

I'll be back next time I need computer help.
See ya later.

This post has been edited by dementedsnake: 24 May 2009 - 07:17 AM

SpySentinel?

"Life" starts in the womb. Just because a fetus is not born yet, does not mean its not a human. Ending a life is murder, regardless of what people "think" is considered living for a fetus. The moment of conception is when life starts, so yes, it is murder.

Can you explain why the Doctors and me should be charged with Murder when we saved my Wife's Life from a Twin growing in her Tubes, not her Womb? That is just Crazy to hear, Mate!

Nothing is Cut and dried, as this Thread shows.

dementedsnake

Don't be Offended, some people just can't see the Forest, too many Trees get in their ways.

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 25 May 2009 - 03:02 AM

The word murder is sometimes used as a definition and sometimes as an accusation. The intention in applying the word murder to this particular discussion has to do with the attempt to sway public opinion and make people - mostly women - feel bad about themselves - in other words, for the purpose of thought control and to try to control people's understanding of their feelings. In the extreme, this attempt to impose controls on women can be seen in their being stoned in Afghanistan for showing their skin publically, even the back of their hands or where girls in that country have had acid poured on them for going to school so they could get an education. Women's issues are real and abortion is one of them.

If the politics were removed from this discussion, it might be possible to examine the actual issues and gain a better understanding of why or why not abortion is beneficial or harmful to human society and to its individuals. As it is, this discussion rarely gets beyond the confrontational stage.

Zllio

Dead Right there, Mate

Many other Cultures, one of them quite Ancient, have looked at it and decided it was "Womens Business" Mere Males are continuing on to say it is their Business.

I Bet that the Ladies agree with me.

No Male has the Right to interfer in a "Woman's Business"

If any Male does really consider to do that, best way is to get a Sex Change, or else just really listen to a Lady. It would blow your Mind out with just what you hear.

Why should they be Subjected to this? They have the Right to control their Bodies, not Males!

It is just Beauracratible BS.

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 25 May 2009 - 08:55 AM

Murdering is never a "Woman's Business". Does man have a right to interfere with murder? Absolutely. Most types of abortion involve the fetus being literally being ripped apart. And to answer if a fetus is a human, at 8 WEEKS its hands and feet are already distinguishable, and at SEVEN MONTHS it can already DREAM. If the mother's life is in danger, I absolutely approve of abortion because it is saving a life, rather than taking away two. But is it murder? Still, absolutely.

dementedsnake

Don't be Offended, some people just can't see the Forest, too many Trees get in their ways.

And what in the world does that have to do with what he said?

Regards,
Allen

This post has been edited by Allen B.: 25 May 2009 - 12:47 PM

@Allen B.

I am shocked to see that you are only 13 year old boy and talking about abortion as murder. You should be playing games on PSP and watching Disney channel.

I guess if no one can agree on what murder is, nothing will change in this discussion. It's to be noted that the person who started this discussion never came back. It's a sort of hit-and-run tactic to drop a topic on a forum in which it's obvious there can never be any agreement and then run off and leave others to battle it out to the same stalemate at which it started. This conflict will be resolved when technology or human development has advanced to the point that it is irrelevant.

I'm out of this thread.
I did not learn anything new from the comments and no one has convinced me to think differently than I did when it started.

Zllio

We are not going to "solve" this issue in this topic. If the comments degenerate any further this topic can be closed.

To Romeo29. I would think that it would be better for a member of the youth of this country to have a thinking mind rather than dumb him or herself down by numbing themselves with games and TV. Just a thought. I myself would think it better to have a mind that thinks of issues in the world today instead of being oblivious to the world around them. Do not interfere with the growth and developement of a young person. That makes no sense. Someday the youth of this country will be the ones in control and will have to sort out the mess things are in now. I would prefer someone who can think thenselves out of a box rather than someone who grew up thinking about games and TV. Things are different these days for kids. The world is more in their faces.. better they don't turn away.