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What will the New President do? He first off closed a Terrible Section of History.

#51 User is offline   Swordie 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:05 PM

[quote name='GTK48' post='1169354' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:03 PM'][quote name='Swordie' post='1169247' date='Mar 8 2009, 06:51 PM']Wait what? He's closing Gitmo? Wow.[/quote]

Yes it was in all the papers. It will take about one year though.
[/quote]

Are the people in Gitmo going to another location, or coming back to America?
Who said I couldn't have everything?

#52 User is offline   GTK48 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:25 PM

[quote name='Swordie' post='1169355' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:05 PM'][quote name='GTK48' post='1169354' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:03 PM'][quote name='Swordie' post='1169247' date='Mar 8 2009, 06:51 PM']Wait what? He's closing Gitmo? Wow.[/quote]

Yes it was in all the papers. It will take about one year though.
[/quote]

Are the people in Gitmo going to another location, or coming back to America?
[/quote]

I think that Obama is going to let them use the Lincoln Bedroom. :thumbsup: Seriously I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe that is why it will take a year. If they are sent back to where they came from, they will be killed. The base is not closing, just club Gitmo.

This post has been edited by GTK48: 08 March 2009 - 07:25 PM

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#53 User is offline   JohnWho 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:27 PM

That is part of the problem -

Obama has no "exit plan" for those prisoners.

:thumbsup:
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#54 Guest_fuzzywuzzy6_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:33 PM

GTK is right about it taking about one year, as they are going through the files on a case-by-case basis.

Some prisoners have been denied release although they have already served more time in Guantanamo than they would have if they had been prosecuted and convicted.

Some would definitely be killed if they were to be returned home. (The Uighurs, or Moslems from the former Mongolia, are not, I think, being returned to China.) There is a rehabilitation program in Saudi Arabia for former terrorist/detainees, but there have been a couple notable failures. There has been no data as to the rest of the former detainees who have gone through the re-education program, which involves instruction in the more peaceable aspects of Islam.

Some countries have volunteered to take certain prisoners on an asylum basis, and others for prison status.

Other prisoners will be sent to federal prisons; there is a big question as to whether military prisons would be appropriate, or even constitutional. Of course, there has been no discussion about sending them to privately-run, corporate-run detention facilities, especially since it came out that Dick Cheney had partial ownership in one such company. (There is a prosecution in Texas in that regard, which received brief massive media attention, and seems to have dissipated into the wind.)

Many locales, of course, do not want any of these prisoners to be placed in their federal prisons.

This post has been edited by fuzzywuzzy6: 08 March 2009 - 07:35 PM


#55 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 07:38 PM

[quote name='JohnWho' post='1169394' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:27 AM']That is part of the problem -

Obama has no "exit plan" for those prisoners.

:trumpet:[/quote]

:flowers:

I am sure that no other Country wants them either now, after after all this time even the innocent ones are feeling pretty cheesed off about the way they have been treated like animals for so long. Quite an easy way to make more Terrorists with a hatred for America?

:thumbsup:

#56 User is offline   GTK48 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:12 PM

[quote name='Abacus 7' post='1169415' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:38 PM'][quote name='JohnWho' post='1169394' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:27 AM']That is part of the problem -

Obama has no "exit plan" for those prisoners.

:trumpet:[/quote]

:flowers:

I am sure that no other Country wants them either now, after after all this time even the innocent ones are feeling pretty cheesed off about the way they have been treated like animals for so long. Quite an easy way to make more Terrorists with a hatred for America?

:thumbsup:
[/quote]

There are no innocent terrorists at Gitmo. They have it better there than from whence they came. Three square meals a day. Free Medical. They do not live in a cave.
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#57 User is offline   JohnWho 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:20 PM

[quote name='Abacus 7' post='1169415' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:38 PM'][quote name='JohnWho' post='1169394' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:27 AM']That is part of the problem -

Obama has no "exit plan" for those prisoners.

:trumpet:[/quote]

:thumbsup: [/quote]


Actually, I'm serious -

determine what you are going to do with the prisoners first,

then set a timetable for closing the facility.

Not the other way around.

:flowers: is one way of describing his plan. I agree.
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I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!

#58 Guest_fuzzywuzzy6_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:06 PM

Not all the people at Guantanamo are terrorists.

The prisoners were not all receiving three square meals a day and adequate medical treatment. Some went quite mad or died because medical treatment was denied them, or they were treated inadequately for physical health problems and then returned to enhanced medical interrogation. Some had food withheld, either as punishment, or to soften them up for interrogation.

Incidentally, the same thing has happened at immigrant detention camps, and some of those detainees were in the country lawfully, or had legal representation.

Some of these statements have been made by very patriotic conservative military officers, cia officers, fbi officers. They are not the fevered imaginings of bleeding heart liberal minds.

This is what comes of not valuing human life.

This post has been edited by fuzzywuzzy6: 08 March 2009 - 09:13 PM


#59 User is offline   GTK48 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:15 PM

[quote name='fuzzywuzzy6' post='1169554' date='Mar 8 2009, 10:06 PM']Not all the people at Guantanamo are terrorists.

The prisoners were not all receiving three square meals a day and adequate medical treatment. Some went quite mad or died because medical treatment was denied them, or they were treated inadequately for physical health problems and then returned to enhanced medical interrogation. Some had food withheld, either as punishment, or to soften them up for interrogation.

Incidentally, the same thing has happened at immigrant detention camps, and some of those detainees were in the country lawfully, or had legal representation.

Some of these statements have been made by very patriotic conservative military officers, cia officers, fbi officers. They are not the fevered imaginings of bleeding heart liberal minds.

This is what comes of not valuing human life.[/quote]

And you do have a source for this BS?
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#60 Guest_fuzzywuzzy6_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:33 PM

Interviews on television where the people identify themselves, so may be easily disproven if their statements are false.

Do you wish me to leave this discussion? If so, please have the courtesy to say so.

This post has been edited by fuzzywuzzy6: 08 March 2009 - 09:35 PM


#61 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:36 PM

:thumbsup:

You will Love this one, Mate.

This is a Legal Document from one of the Detainees that is now walking the Streets of Australia, a free Man, but held under a Code of Silence for years to come. But "The Truth will always prevail, no matter how much you try to hide it"

[quote]This is the full text of the affidavit lodged by Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks asserting that he has been tortured during his detention:

DAVID M HICKS, being duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. I am David M Hicks, a Petitioner in the abo e-captioned action, and I make this Affidavit, submitted under seal (*), in support of my of my Amended Complaint, and my applications for injunctive relief.

2. I am a native and citizen of Australia, born in Adelaide August 7, 1975. I have completed the 9th Grade in the Australian school system.

3. This Affidavit provides an outline of the abuse and mistreatment I have received, witnessed, and/or heard about since I have been detained by the United States in Afghanistan, aboard US Naval vessels and US military aircraft, and at the US Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (hereinafter "Guantanamo Bay"). I have been detained by the United States Armed Forces from December 2001 until present. I arrived in Guantanamo Bay in January 2002. I does not detail all of the abuse I have received, or witnessed, or heard about, but merely sketches some of it. I have been careful to specify what happened to me, what I saw happen to others, and what I have heard about. During the course of my interrogations, I have repeatedly asked for a lawyer and why I am not being treated as Prisoner of War.

4. Since I do not have access to either a typewriter or computer, this Affidavit has been prepared by my attorneys based on information I have provided to them. I have reviewed the Affidavit carefully, and verify that it is completely accurate.

5. I have been beaten before, after, and during interrogations.

6. I have been menaced and threatened, directly and indirectly, with firearms and other weapons before and during interrogations.

7. I have heard beatings of other detainees occurring during interrogations, and observed detainees' injuries that were received during interrogations.

8. I have been beaten while blindfolded and handcuffed.

9. I have been in the company of other detainees who were beaten while blindfolded and handcuffed. At one point, a group of detainees, including myself, were subjected to being randomly hit over a eight hour session while handcuffed and blindfolded.

10. I have been struck with hands, fists, and other objects (including rifle butts). I have also been kicked. I have been hit in the face, head, feet, and torso.

11. I have had my head rammed into asphalt several times (while blindfolded).

12. I have had handcuffs placed on me so tightly, and for so long (as much as 14-15 hours) that my hands were numb for a considerable period thereafter.

13. I have had medication - the identity of which was unknown to me, despite my requests for information - forced upon me against my will. I have been struck while under the influence of sedatives that were forced upon me by injection.

14. I have been forced to run in leg shackles that regularly ripped the skin off my ankles. Many other detainees experienced the same.

15. I have been deprived of sleep as a matter of policy.

16. I have witnessed the activities of the Internal Reaction Force (hereinafter "IRF"), which consists of a squad of soldiers that enter a detainee's cell and brutalize him with the aid of an attack dog. The IRF invasions were so common that the term to be "IRF'd" became part of the language of the detainees. I have seen detainees suffer serious injuries as a result of being IRF'ed. I have seen detainees IRF'ed while they were praying, or for refusing medication.

17. I was told repeatedly that if I cooperated during the course of interrogations, I would be sent home to Australia after the interrogations were concluded. I was told there was an "easy way" and a "hard way" to respond to interrogation.

18. Interrogators once offered me the services of a prostitute for fifteen minutes if I would spy on other detainees. I refused.

19. Failure to cooperate meant the loss of the ordinary necessities of living, such as showers, sufficient food, relief from the prospect of IRF'ing and other regular abuse visited upon non-cooperative detainees, access to reading material, and social contact (including receiving mail).

20. During Ramadan, food was withhold from detainees after the break of the daily fast in order to coerce cooperation with interrogators. Detainees who refused to cooperate were punished regularly, and denied the ordinary necessities of living.

21. I have been told that strobe lights and extreme cold were also used to disorient detainees in order to soften them up for interrogation. I have also heard that religious detainees were exposed to pornography, and were dragged around naked in order to break their will.

22. Detainees were not allowed to know the date, day, year, or time. We were deprived of any and all information and news from the world. Detainees were permitted very little exercise.

23. At one point during 2003 alone, my weight dropped by 30 pounds (and I was not overweight to start).

24. Other detainees also informed me that interrogators attempted to turn them against me by spreading rumors about me. In any event, due to the way interrogations were conducted, and the physical layout of the camps, it was obvious to all of the detainees who was being interrogated, for how long, and whether that detainee emerged abused or not (with the latter signifying cooperation). Thus, any detainee would know who was cooperating with the interrogators.

25. The interrogation process ruled the detention camps and the lives of detainees. Cooperation with interrogators offered the only means of relief from the miserable treatment and abuse the detainees suffered. Those who failed to comply suffered abuse until they gave in.

26. My conditions changed after I was moved to Camp Echo (as did the treatment afforded me by the military personnel on duty there) July 9, 2003, and then again after the visits from my attorneys began. However, at Camp Echo, I have been held in a solitary cell and have been so since arriving at Camp Echo. I was not allowed outside of my cell in Camp Echo for exercise in the sunlight, from July 2003 until March 10, 2004.

27. As noted earlier, the above catalogue of abuse and mistreatment is not complete. It is but a summary of some of the abuse I suffered, witnessed, and/or heard about since my detention began. I would be able to provide further information and detail if the Court so desires, but a complete account would require a substantially longer document. In fact, at my request and due to the persistence of my lawyers, I have recently met with US military investigators conducting the probe into detainee abuse in Afghanistan. Also, this is not the first time I protested my mistreatment, since on several occasions - in Afghanistan, and later at Guantanamo Bay - I informed representatives of the International Red Cross of the abuse.

WHEREFORE, it is respectfully respected that the Court grant the relief sought in my Amended Complaint, and for any such other relief that the Court deems proper.

DAVID M HICKS

Sworn to before me this

5th day of August, 2004.

MD MORI

Major

United States Marine Corps

Judge Advocate[/quote]

[url="http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/David-Hicks-affidavit/2004/12/10/1102625527396.html"]http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/David-Hic...2625527396.html[/url]

:flowers: :trumpet:

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 08 March 2009 - 09:39 PM


#62 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:46 PM


#63 User is offline   GTK48 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 10:08 PM

[quote name='Abacus 7' post='1169589' date='Mar 8 2009, 10:36 PM']:thumbsup:

You will Love this one, Mate.

This is a Legal Document from one of the Detainees that is now walking the Streets of Australia, a free Man, but held under a Code of Silence for years to come. But "The Truth will always prevail, no matter how much you try to hide it"

[quote]This is the full text of the affidavit lodged by Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks asserting that he has been tortured during his detention:

DAVID M HICKS, being duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. I am David M Hicks, a Petitioner in the abo e-captioned action, and I make this Affidavit, submitted under seal (*), in support of my of my Amended Complaint, and my applications for injunctive relief.

2. I am a native and citizen of Australia, born in Adelaide August 7, 1975. I have completed the 9th Grade in the Australian school system.

3. This Affidavit provides an outline of the abuse and mistreatment I have received, witnessed, and/or heard about since I have been detained by the United States in Afghanistan, aboard US Naval vessels and US military aircraft, and at the US Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (hereinafter "Guantanamo Bay"). I have been detained by the United States Armed Forces from December 2001 until present. I arrived in Guantanamo Bay in January 2002. I does not detail all of the abuse I have received, or witnessed, or heard about, but merely sketches some of it. I have been careful to specify what happened to me, what I saw happen to others, and what I have heard about. During the course of my interrogations, I have repeatedly asked for a lawyer and why I am not being treated as Prisoner of War.

4. Since I do not have access to either a typewriter or computer, this Affidavit has been prepared by my attorneys based on information I have provided to them. I have reviewed the Affidavit carefully, and verify that it is completely accurate.

5. I have been beaten before, after, and during interrogations.

6. I have been menaced and threatened, directly and indirectly, with firearms and other weapons before and during interrogations.

7. I have heard beatings of other detainees occurring during interrogations, and observed detainees' injuries that were received during interrogations.

8. I have been beaten while blindfolded and handcuffed.

9. I have been in the company of other detainees who were beaten while blindfolded and handcuffed. At one point, a group of detainees, including myself, were subjected to being randomly hit over a eight hour session while handcuffed and blindfolded.

10. I have been struck with hands, fists, and other objects (including rifle butts). I have also been kicked. I have been hit in the face, head, feet, and torso.

11. I have had my head rammed into asphalt several times (while blindfolded).

12. I have had handcuffs placed on me so tightly, and for so long (as much as 14-15 hours) that my hands were numb for a considerable period thereafter.

13. I have had medication - the identity of which was unknown to me, despite my requests for information - forced upon me against my will. I have been struck while under the influence of sedatives that were forced upon me by injection.

14. I have been forced to run in leg shackles that regularly ripped the skin off my ankles. Many other detainees experienced the same.

15. I have been deprived of sleep as a matter of policy.

16. I have witnessed the activities of the Internal Reaction Force (hereinafter "IRF"), which consists of a squad of soldiers that enter a detainee's cell and brutalize him with the aid of an attack dog. The IRF invasions were so common that the term to be "IRF'd" became part of the language of the detainees. I have seen detainees suffer serious injuries as a result of being IRF'ed. I have seen detainees IRF'ed while they were praying, or for refusing medication.

17. I was told repeatedly that if I cooperated during the course of interrogations, I would be sent home to Australia after the interrogations were concluded. I was told there was an "easy way" and a "hard way" to respond to interrogation.

18. Interrogators once offered me the services of a prostitute for fifteen minutes if I would spy on other detainees. I refused.

19. Failure to cooperate meant the loss of the ordinary necessities of living, such as showers, sufficient food, relief from the prospect of IRF'ing and other regular abuse visited upon non-cooperative detainees, access to reading material, and social contact (including receiving mail).

20. During Ramadan, food was withhold from detainees after the break of the daily fast in order to coerce cooperation with interrogators. Detainees who refused to cooperate were punished regularly, and denied the ordinary necessities of living.

21. I have been told that strobe lights and extreme cold were also used to disorient detainees in order to soften them up for interrogation. I have also heard that religious detainees were exposed to pornography, and were dragged around naked in order to break their will.

22. Detainees were not allowed to know the date, day, year, or time. We were deprived of any and all information and news from the world. Detainees were permitted very little exercise.

23. At one point during 2003 alone, my weight dropped by 30 pounds (and I was not overweight to start).

24. Other detainees also informed me that interrogators attempted to turn them against me by spreading rumors about me. In any event, due to the way interrogations were conducted, and the physical layout of the camps, it was obvious to all of the detainees who was being interrogated, for how long, and whether that detainee emerged abused or not (with the latter signifying cooperation). Thus, any detainee would know who was cooperating with the interrogators.

25. The interrogation process ruled the detention camps and the lives of detainees. Cooperation with interrogators offered the only means of relief from the miserable treatment and abuse the detainees suffered. Those who failed to comply suffered abuse until they gave in.

26. My conditions changed after I was moved to Camp Echo (as did the treatment afforded me by the military personnel on duty there) July 9, 2003, and then again after the visits from my attorneys began. However, at Camp Echo, I have been held in a solitary cell and have been so since arriving at Camp Echo. I was not allowed outside of my cell in Camp Echo for exercise in the sunlight, from July 2003 until March 10, 2004.

27. As noted earlier, the above catalogue of abuse and mistreatment is not complete. It is but a summary of some of the abuse I suffered, witnessed, and/or heard about since my detention began. I would be able to provide further information and detail if the Court so desires, but a complete account would require a substantially longer document. In fact, at my request and due to the persistence of my lawyers, I have recently met with US military investigators conducting the probe into detainee abuse in Afghanistan. Also, this is not the first time I protested my mistreatment, since on several occasions - in Afghanistan, and later at Guantanamo Bay - I informed representatives of the International Red Cross of the abuse.

WHEREFORE, it is respectfully respected that the Court grant the relief sought in my Amended Complaint, and for any such other relief that the Court deems proper.

DAVID M HICKS

Sworn to before me this

5th day of August, 2004.

MD MORI

Major

United States Marine Corps

Judge Advocate[/quote]

[url="http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/David-Hicks-affidavit/2004/12/10/1102625527396.html"]http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/David-Hic...2625527396.html[/url]

:flowers: :trumpet:
[/quote]
[quote]I does not detail all of the abuse I have received, or witnessed, or heard about, but merely sketches some of it. I have been careful to specify what happened to me, what I saw happen to others, and what I have heard about. During the course of my interrogations, I have repeatedly asked for a lawyer and why I am not being treated as Prisoner of War.[/quote]

I know why he never got past the 9th grade but in all due respect enemy combatants and or POW's are not required under US law to have council.
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#64 Guest_Abacus 7_*

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 10:20 PM

:thumbsup:

[quote]I know why he never got past the 9th grade but in all due respect enemy combatants and or POW's are not required under US law to have council.[/quote]

You got a Link to that BS and also the actual Declaration of War that was made?

Edit. Don't you think that there was a Reason for them to be moved to Cuba?
That was because US Law would not have to apply, only Communist Law applied and still does.

Funny enough, he was allowed Legal Council after being moved back to America?

[quote]26. My conditions changed after I was moved to Camp Echo (as did the treatment afforded me by the military personnel on duty there) July 9, 2003, and then again after the visits from my attorneys began. However, at Camp Echo, I have been held in a solitary cell and have been so since arriving at Camp Echo. I was not allowed outside of my cell in Camp Echo for exercise in the sunlight, from July 2003 until March 10, 2004.[/quote]

:flowers:

This post has been edited by Abacus 7: 08 March 2009 - 10:50 PM


#65 User is offline   BlackSpyder 

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 11:50 PM

[quote name='Abacus 7' post='1169628' date='Mar 8 2009, 11:20 PM']Edit. Don't you think that there was a Reason for them to be moved to Cuba?
That was because US Law would not have to apply, only Communist Law applied and still does.

Funny enough, he was allowed Legal Council after being moved back to America?[/quote]

All US Military bases are on US soil, they are similar to embassies for all countries. Therefore US law governs all that goes on on a base regarding civilians and US Military law governs the troops.

Why Cuba? Remote location unattached to the US or any ally, but near-by. Natural defenses with the rock cliffs and the bay surrounding it.
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