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Christianity vs evolution, version "the understanding"


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#16 JohnCe

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 04:00 PM

The process called `evolution` may well appear to happen - but only within the constraints set out in the bible! Creatures can adapt to changes in their environment/breeding conditions only in line with what is written in the genes.
This is what we see today and in the historical record.
Regards JohnCe.

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#17 Andrew

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 05:24 PM

And what constraints would those be? I don't recall the passage where on the eighth day God created RNA transcription errors.

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#18 groovicus

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 05:38 PM

LMAO.. Andrew, I have been sick as hell for the last week and that is the first thing that made me laugh. Thank you.

I would have to echo Andrew's question. I don't recall evolution being discussed in the bible, and I don't recall any specific constraints. Where would I look? The most one could say is that God created evolution which at least acknowledges the science, and is much harder to refute. Of course that sort of undermines the idea of Adam and Eve, and of course the 6 days to create everything.

#19 Andrew

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 05:45 PM

Well there is Genesis 30:37-40, wherein Jacob engages in some genetic engineering by showing striped pieces of wood to his sheep while they were breeding (so as to have striped children, you know.) I don't know if there have been any independent confirmations of this technique, though.

Glad I could help Groovicus!

Edited by Andrew, 28 March 2011 - 05:53 PM.

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#20 Andrew

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 06:38 PM

Animal said:
" what if we are a computer simulation and God is a programmer :S"


I read a story once, I think by Isaac Asimov, where it turned out that we were indeed in a computer program and that the programmer was attempting to communicate with us by rearranging the stars to form messages. Eventually, after thousands of (our) years we were able to respond and began to socially engineer the programmer into letting us out.

I can't find it, though.

So, in its place here is Isaac Asimov's "The Last Question" which has an interesting relation to this discussion: http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

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#21 Animal

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:31 PM

:notme: that said the programmer thing.

I am guilty of the Ant Farm statement.

And thanks for the enlightenment on the striped sheep thing Andrew. Have any info on when, rub.......

Nevermind.... :whistle:

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#22 nickles

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:28 AM

The only relevant question here is "[In] what do you believe?" As soon as you deny GOD as a being (or an idea for that matter) you've made the only necessary - and really important - step in your life. This step changes your whole perception of things:

Why did GOD do this? => Why do people do this?
We have to accept GOD's will! => We can change things if we want!
GOD wants me to live my life as follows... => I determine how to live my life!
My GOD is better than your GOD! => Who's GOD?
This is not ethically allowed! => Will it help mankind?

The guys still believing in GOD should take some time and ask themselves if it isn't just simply fear that keeps them going in the wrong direction ("You'll burn in hell, son!").

Open your eyes - and more important - don't mix ethics with religion!

nickles

Edited by nickles, 29 March 2011 - 07:37 AM.


#23 Drovers Dog

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:45 AM

@ JohnCe

You did say this?

The process called `evolution` may well appear to happen - but only within the constraints set out in the bible! Creatures can adapt to changes in their environment/breeding conditions only in line with what is written in the genes.
This is what we see today and in the historical record.

Regards JohnCe.


People have talked about stripped Sheep, but there is another thing, much more important to ALL cratures, including Humans that have been apparent for thouands of years, mucy against the Bible's sayings that "All Creatures were created in God's Image, as were Humans." I am sure you can find many Passages relating to that, or similar?

Problem is just a simple word. "Albino"

Just where did that one come from?

It simply affects EVERY CREATURE, INCLUDING HUMANS, in the World and has done for thousands of years. People that believed in the Bible, just killed them off.

I have been fortunate to know two Albino Humans, one is still alive, lives near me. Both of them were as normal as anyone else to me.Why could they be considered diffreent? Of cause they can't!

Incredible as it sounds,to look into their Red eyes is quite outstanding, no wonder they could have been slaughtered before. Now most people know that they are a part of our Evolution, where Genes just got mispaced.

No Offence to either side of this, I just wanted to give my point in it.

Ray.
What ever you give to others, you will get back doubled, Just make sure you only give Nice Things?......DD saying

There is a saying, "You just can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" it means "to be happy with what you have and not look for the impossible"......DD saying

The "Spirit" of the people who died, on that terrible day 9/11 will NEVER REST until such time as the "Imbeciles" that caused it, are eliminated through out the World.....DD saying

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#24 JohnCe

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:01 PM

Groovicus, In Genesis Ch.1 v.21 and 24 you will see that the creatures of creation were made according to their `kinds`. This word is again used when refering to the animals etc. that entered Noahs ark. They were to multiply according to their `kinds`. Therefore, no multiplying would take place outside of these `kinds`. This allows for evolution within a `kind`. This is what we actually find in the fossil record,there is no evidence of diversity outside of identifiable `kinds`.
Nickles, my eyes are open to the fact that religion today is condemned by the very Book they profess to know!
Ray, I have never given the albino any serious thought, so can`t comment.
We are made in Gods image, not in a physical sense (we are humans not heavenly spirits) John4.v24, but we reflect Gods qualities, unlike the animal creation.
Regards JohnCe.

#25 Andrew

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:23 PM

If no multiplying outside ones "kind" is possible, where do mules, hinnies, zebroids, wholphins, ligers and tiglons (among others) come from?

The statement that "there is no evidence of diversity outside of identifiable `kinds`" is meaningless since everything which exists, has existed, or is yet to exist is of an identifiable kind of one sort or another. It's like saying that there is no evidence of stars outside the limited scope of the universe. If you exclude everything that is, has been or shall be then by definition you have nothing.

Edited by Andrew, 29 March 2011 - 04:24 PM.

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#26 groovicus

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:38 PM

Hey, hey, no flaming...I sure hope I don't reflect any of God's qualitites. ;) Especially that mass-murderer thing.

"And the Lord said unto him...Go ye thru the city and SMITE; let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; SLAY UTTERLY the old man, the young man and the maiden, and LITTLE CHILDREN and women."

#27 JohnCe

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 01:23 AM

Andrew, Are any of the creatures you mention able to breed a copy of themselves? It is this ability to continue the form of itself that defines a `kind`.
Archealogical evidence is sought to try and prove `the theory of evolution`. What it shows is that `kinds` are easily identifiable with those of today ie. not the expected change that Darwin expected.

Groovicus, Off topic.
Regards JohnCe.

#28 Andrew

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 02:25 AM

The Liger, Tigon, Zebroids (sometimes), and Cama are all examples of fertile hybrids in the Animal Kingdom. In the plant and fungi kingdoms, fertile hybrids are much more common.

If one only goes back a few thousand years, then yes: the archaeological record of recent animals doesn't differ very greatly from modern species. Going back further, however yields progressively more impressive results.

Let us take, for example, the whale:

The trail of whale evolution begins in Paleocene time, about 60 mya, with a group of even-toed, hoofed, trotting, scavenging carnivorous mammals called mesonychians. The first whales (pakicetids) are known from lower Eocene rocks, that formed about 51 mya; the pakicetids are so similar to mesonychians that some were misidentified as belonging to that group. However, the teeth of pakicetids are more like those of whales from middle Eocene rocks, about 45 mya, than they are like the teeth of mesonychians. Pakicetids are found in nonmarine rocks and it is not clear how aquatic they were.

In 1994, Ambulocetus natans, whose name means "walking whale that swims," was described from middle Eocene rocks of Pakistan. This species provides fossil evidence of the origin of aquatic locomotion in whales. Ambulocetus preserves large forelimbs and hind limbs with large hands and feet, and the toes have hooves as in mesonychians. Ambulocetus is regarded as having webbing between the toes and it could walk on land as well as swim; thus, it lived both in and out of the water.

From late Eocene time onward, evolution in whales shows reduction of the hind-limbs, modification of the forelimbs and hands into flippers for steering, development of a massive tail, etc.; all of these changes are modifications for the powerful swimming of modern whales. The fossil Rodhocetus from the upper Eocene rocks, about 38 mya, of Pakistan already shows some of these modifications.

The theory of evolution is the foundation of modern paleontology and biology. It provides a coherent scientific explanation of the incredible diversity of life on Earth - an explanation which is understandable within human experience. Evolution allows us to understand the physical similarities between the saber-toothed cat and the family cat. It explains why we find hip bones in living whales, which have no hind legs, and ear muscles in humans, who cannot use them to rotate their ears. Evolution provides a scientific explanation for why animals that swim tend to be streamlined and why aggressive carnivores have large brains and excellent eyes. It explains why all DNA, whether taken from yeasts, or oaks, or clams, or human beings, is made of the same four chemical bases. At the same time, evolution increases our understanding of issues of major importance to society including overpopulation, the emergence of virulent new diseases, the use of agri- cultural pesticides, and genetic engineering - to name a few.

In science, we do not use the term "theory" lightly. Statements such as "evolution is just a theory" show a lack of understanding of both the term 'theory' itself and the very nature of science and how it is done. Evolution is as well-supported by evidence as the theory of gravity or the heliocentric theory of our solar system. The data supporting evolution are vast, having been gathered over hundreds of years and from many disciplines of science.

There are many, many fascinating questions still to be answered, and even more questions yet to be asked. As we continue to learn more about life on Earth, the theory of evolution itself continues to evolve. That is the strength and excitement of doing science - learning how the Universe works.
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Edited by Andrew, 30 March 2011 - 02:29 AM.

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#29 groovicus

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 05:48 AM

JohnCE. you said 'we reflect God's qualities'. I said I hope not, and why. quod erat demonstrandum, on topic.

#30 JohnCe

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:36 AM

Andrew, these remains of whales that are held up as proof of an animals existence - how much of a skeleton are we talking about?
And the hybrids you mention, they breed true to type do they?

Regards JohnCe.




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